Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems changing from B&W to DSP speakers ?

'Research' yes....we've all said similar things for years here. However, his message is lost in the "smoke" found when comparing the 8k's to the ....whatevertheywere's...

just my very biassed 2p from an 8k R&D funding owner

Hello,

Just talked to country Meridian and other brands importator and explained him the same as I did here, telling him about my system (N804 + HTM1) and he definitly did not recommend to change and keep my speakers, for him they are much better ... I am now confused, I thought I would gain, he said no... But he recommended me to change my power amp to a more dynamic one (from rottel RMB1075 to ADA or new lexicon or same type).

One thing I often see not discussed is fatigue. To me this is the major difference between say B&W and Meridian. B&W's may sound more airy and detailed but after a few hours of some types of music I have a headache (sometimes the next day too). The Meridian's I can listen all day and no fatigue. It's a trade off, they are not as detailed and airy (and when you compare them side by side you'll notice it a lot).

It`s sort like buying a car with stiff suspension and wide tires. Cool for thrill ride but for a long trip you'd be numb in the butt. I'd rather take the Mercedes for a long trip and the stiff suspension to the race track.

B&W makes fine speakers but they are too bright (stiff) for a lengthy music session and on some movies. Meridian`s have a great balance, detailed enough to get what`s needed through, incredible bass for their size.

Just like driving a car (stiff or soft) your body (in this case your ears and brain) will adjust to the sound (some call it breaking in cables etc.). For the B&W your ears will kick in a high frequency filter over time. I think this “Filter” is what gives you a headache. For Meridians it will turn the filter off over time. So to be honest to REALLY compare them you have to own each for months to appreciate either and then and only then you`d really know what`s right for you.

I know this sounds crazy but this is my current belief. The brain is way more complicated and learns how to listen to each set up. It`s not instant. The brain can also get bored and sometimes people enjoy a change (for better or worse technically).

That said I switched from N803`s to DSP5500`s and it took a little while to adjust but I love them now.

One other data point. I have read numerous posts of folks going from B&W's to DSP's but I don't recall ever reading the reverse.

George, you have a major point there.

Even my Humble set up is effortless, I use it all the time.
This includes the F80. You just keep listening and never tire of it.

The Brain does compensate, and I wonder if, after certain quality thresholds are met, that everything sounds the same in your head in time, and fatigue is caused by your Brain 'filtering' to bring you back to this natural state. (I Know its more complex than this, but the point is made).

The better the Kit the less work your brain has to do.

A/B testing IMHO is not as valid as it may appear, you have to live with the kit.

If you still love it after a year, your on the right track.

I know this is not completly scientific, but my experiance seems to bear it out.

Would I like DSP's? Yes, my brain could do with the rest.

Cheers, Chris

But who's fault is that?

Let me give you a little background on Isophon. First of all, I'm in no way involved with them. I'm no dealer, I don't sell them, nothing. I first ran into Isophon a little over 10 years ago at High-End where I got a demo of their speakers and it sounded horrible. I quickly forgot about these speakers and looked somewhere else. A couple of years ago I was looking for new speakers, I auditioned pretty much everything. Kharma, Wilson, Von Schweikert, Focal, Meridian, Dynaudio (only the Contour and Evidence series), B&W and alot of others. I also audiotioned all of the Meridian speakers that were available back then, as that seemed to be the logic choice for my 861. None of these speakers really made me happy. Sure, I could live with those, since I didn't know anything better.

At some point someone pointed me to the Isophon speakers. First I didn't want to listen to those, I thought they were simply too cheap to be worth the audition. I was pushed again and was told to ignore the price and just listen. I then had a closer look at the technology behind the speakers. Again, I had a look at the specs and didn't want to listen to them. Most speakers I have liked so far have a pretty flat crossover (6dB / octave), that includes the big Wilsons. Some of the Isophon speakers have crossovers with over 40dB. For me, it was reason enough not to listen to these speakers. But yet again, I was pushed and I had a local dealer, so I made an appoinetment, grabbed a few of my favorite CDs and thought I'll just go there, listen to that crap for 30 mins and then keep looking for a really good speaker... boy, was I wrong. I asked the dealer to hook up the Europa II for me, which retails for about �10k. I didn't want to listen to any of the smaller speakers, since I already looked at speakers well beyond �10k. Those planned 30 minute demo, ended about 5 hours later. I could not stop listening to that speaker. Soundstage, depth, detail, it simply made my jaw drop.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the Wilson X-2, so I'm not bashing Wilson here, but if the Europa II were a Wilson speaker, they would have priced it at �100k and not �10k. Of course with Isophon you're missing a little and that is the lower end. It plays down to about 25-26Hz and then drops further. That's the case for pretty much all the Isophon speakers, including the latest Arabba. If you can live with that, you've got a winner.

Over the years I've now listened to pretty much every Isophon speaker available and even some not available yet. I've got to know Dr. Gauder (owner and designer of Isophon) and some other people behind the curtains. Isophon is still my #1 when it comes to speakers, they have something for everyone and they're dirt cheap in comparison to other manufacturers. They're followed by Wilson (X-2), Von Schweikert and Eben.

To say few people have heard of Isophon is not quite fair. Isophon has won a ton of "Best sound of the show" awards from several magazines and show officials, in Germany, UK and the US. Infact, a few years ago there was a huge UK dealer that was very interested in Isophon. He thought it was the best he's heard in years. You ask for the reason he didn't distribute it in the UK? According to the dealer, german speakers don't sell well in the UK, no matter how good they are. The same can be said for the US. The same can be said for chinese electronics. There's some stunning stuff out there, but it's not selling well simply because it's from China and therefore cheap...

I can only recommend to go out and listen to Isophon speakers, or any other brand you're interested in. One thing you're not getting of course are the cables and amps. The Isophons are very amp critical, they sound crap with Bryston, but excellent with Chord, Thorends, Acoustic-Reality, Mark Levinson, Simaudio, Lamm, ...

So you have to add costs for the amps and cables. I'm using Nordost cables myself, that can of course add alot to the cost. The most important component is room treatment anyway. You can have the best speakers, but in a not properly treated room, it won't sound good. But in the end, it shouldn't be the price that we "audiophiles" worry about, only the quality. So whatever you buy, make sure you're happy with it.

Regarding the OPs question, I'm personally not a big fan of B&W, but I'd stick to them.

- Stephan

A timely and very interesting post Stephan...

One of the things that makes Meridian DSP speakers unique is the very steep crossovers which are performed (obviously) in the digital domain. This allows for excellent driver integration. I performed a comparison of Meridian M60s vs. DSP5000s before purchasing the 5ks; these two speakers have the same driver complement, but the DSPs were so much more believable in the vocal range where the tweeter crosses over to the mid-bass unit.

If Isophon are achieving 40dB/octave crossovers (presumably in the analogue domain) with excellent results, apart from being a superb technical achievement, their speakers may have more in common with Meridian DSPs than any of us realized...

The Isophons were the first speakers I really liked with such crossovers. I have a couple of years experience in building speakers, designing crossovers and so on (not prfessional, just a hobby). It was always a big no-go for me, until I heard these. Isophon is of course using different crossovers in their speakers, the latest Arabba has a crossover with over 50dB/octave.

Again, I can only recommend a demo.

I like this statement.

But I'd like to rephrase it slightly.

The more natural the Kit the less work your brain has to do.

I'd like to add one more bit to my car analogy that may hit home with some. Demoing speakers at the dealer is liking taking a car for a ride in the parking lot.

George, The Re-phrase is OK by me. Feel free to use it.

I do believe its true along with your car park analogy.

You gotta live with it a bit.

Cheers, Chris

OP - I think Stephan's first advice is the best - Listen for yourself and you're own tastes.
After that advice consider:
At this level no-one "smokes" anyone; It's all personal taste and audio cause & effect...



hmmmm...


I like George's analogy: ease of listening...
I'd say, listen for what sounds most natural to you're own ears/brain....

ken

hmmm, because I know Dr. Gauder? Come on, don't be ridiculous here. The same could be said for Meridian too, because I know people working for Meridian and their distributor. Once you spent a certain amount of money, you simply get to know people. You talk to them about their products and your experiences, usually manufacturers listen to feedback from users. Go to Sim2 or Digital Projection, buy some of their projectors over the time and at some point they'll talk to you about pretty much everything. That's what good customer service is about.

Back when I bought my first pair of Isophon speakers, I told Dan about it. I recommened some of their smaller speakers for his room. Of course the problem was, that Isophon didn't have a UK distributor back then. I asked my dealer if he'd be willing to set up speakers for him and if he could sell to the UK. He told me that would be no problem, but of course he didn't have every speaker in stock. I then talked to Dr. Gauder and he made the offer to pick Dan up from the airport, give him a factory tour and setup whatever he's interested in in their demo room. That's how (potential) customer service should be. It's a pleasure to talk to these people.

A lot of high-end manufacturer do things like these for their customers, those who don't should think twice about it.

Hi Stephan,

You're correct - many of us have many years dealing with folks at M with very positive results. Your comment did beg for a tongue in cheek response.

You have to admit that talk of one brand "smoking" another at this level is always massively subjective. I could quite easily state that my gear, setup the way I have it, "smokes" yours. You'd find that quite a ridiculous statement I'm sure.

Anyway...it's w/end. If only Germany knew what rugby was we'd have something far more important to debate

Enjoy your music !!