Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems The one of MANY HD-DVD threads (No bashing Blu-Ray)

I think Ron's right, cost is a major driver. Now that we are seeing really cheap HD-DVD players emerging we may find out if Joe Average gives a flying **** about any HD format

Studio support is also a major factor in the 'war'. If Warner were to do a 'Paramount' it could spell the end for BR.

Cliff

(2HD-DVDs, but no player yet!)

Right. I think thats the point for those saying BR isnt as strong as they make it seem. If you are losing money in a tiny tiny format- why not lose less, keep your position open for the future (Paramounts deal is like 18 months) and then see what happens.

My gut feeling tells me that the idea of bundling the PS3 as a game player and Trojan Horse movie player was a major mistake for Sony which will cause problems for both. Elaborating: game playing is somewhat active. Movie watching is mostly passive. Im not so sure they are the same market. Im also fairly sure the additional cost of the BR technology for the machine caused delays and initial high prices- severe for the game machine market. That allowed Nintendo to get a foot hold and more important: "mindshare" as well as allowing the Xbox 360 more time. Its still a success, but I think it is not the market dominating success the PS2 was.

best regards,
Jerry

There`s a flipside to much of the above.

I`ve gone into this before, but games consoles don`t traditionally make profit in their first three to five years of existence. Nintendo`s machines are often the exception to this rule, but every incarnation of the Playstation has taken years to turn a profit, the original Xbox never turned a profit, and the Xbox 360 apparently breaks even according to its makers - which if true is impressive, but it`s been countered by the enormous hit Xbox 360s have taken in the reliability of units which has come at great cost to Microsoft. Bottom line, it`s always the software that brings in the money.

Did the implementation of Blu-ray delay the launch off the PS3? Unquestionably. Has it damaged the console`s success in the long term? As a gamer, I`m honestly not so sure at the moment. The console will have well surpassed 5m units sold worldwide come the anniversary of its launch in November, which given the hindrance of its premium price (coupled with lack of enticing games catalogue) really isn`t bad at all. With better games coming in the fourth quarter, including some attractive format exclusives - plus current rumour of a $399 model for Christmas - its future isn`t necessarily as bleak as some may think. The Wii is a phenomenon, but the battle for second place rages on. I think desire for the PS3 is there, but the price is naturally its biggest problem. If they can get it below $400 it will help, as it will at least put the PS3 into a directly competitive price level with the Xbox 360.

A price of $250 to $299 is typically considered the sweet spot for a games console. The Wii`s success is testament to this, as is the continued success of the Playstation 2. Many argue the greater percentage of the gaming community worldwide is not ready for a console as costly and sophisticated as the PS3. This is true, but it`s also true that a vast majority are still overwhelmed by the Xbox 360 too. This is changing (and next week`s launch of Halo3 will undoubtedly get more 360s into new homes), but it`s still pretty gradual. Consoles are, in the eyes of many, mere toys, and the majority are going to be more than content with the PS2 and Wii for some time to come because both are priced well to appeal to both older gamers, and to parents buying for their children. The 360 and PS3 however are, for the most part, still really only going to reach out to gamers in their twenties and up.

The recent drop of the PS3`s 60GB unit to $499 in order to clear remaining stock has proved to be a success. If it is true that a $399 model will surface as soon as this winter then sales will move up a gear or two. Given the size of the losses Sony might take on every PS3 sold, it`s perhaps beneficial for them (from an financial point of view) that sales have not yet caused an outright sensation. They have been working hard to lower the losses on their end - and they will always take a loss of some kind as that`s the nature of the games industry as I have explained - so if they can partner price reductions with actual reductions in manufacturing then they`ll have actually done a good job.

As far as the PS3s place in providing a Trojan Horse in the format war is concerned, I think it may still prove to be a success in a couple of ways. From a software point of view, people are playing movies on these things. Many? I doubt it. With two-million units in the US, perhaps 300,000 at most are using it to watch movies. Is that a problem for Blu-ray? I don`t think so as I think there`s only so much the Playstation could have ever realistically done to boost Blu-ray adoption and/or raise awareness of the format`s existence. I do think that in this respect the PS3 has/is serving its purpose (as far as its role in the “war” is concerned).
From a manufacturing point of view I suspect Blu-ray being inside the console is likely to be proving beneficial. More PS3s are made and shipped than dedicated players for both HD DVD and Blu-ray combined, which makes for a consistently tall order month in, month out, for the components required to make the drives. This benefits many and, in the long term, should contribute to driving costs down not just for the Playstation, but for anyone making dedicated players. In addition, with every PS3 gaming being BD-Rom based, the vast numbers in which game discs are being replicated will undoubtedly have a knock on effect to the cost for movies using replications lines too. So really, I think the PS3s part in the format war greatly depends on what people expected the PS3 to achieve for Blu-ray in the first place.

I actually think the Wii's success is not just price based. Its really that the PS and Xbox serve the hard core gamers while there are many who just want a little fun and thats where the Wii comes in. The price has to be low because its a whimsical kind of thing. But it does show price is very important for these things.

I can't disagree with your points but simply would say that the BR camp likes to point out its superior installed base of players. Yet a substantial chunk of that is probably PS3 machines- which are really bought first and foremost as game boxes. Hence giving some support to the argument that the situation is not really as rosy for BR as the BR association likes to make it sound.

I will finally point out that if the PS3 didnt have to be delayed or saddled with a dual mission it would have been to market sooner, and therefore making profits sooner- not allowing as much room for the Xbox and the Wii. I'm a believer in striking when the iron is hot and it seems to me Sony allowed it to cool. Its still a success, yes, but I think it would have been far preferable for Sony to have made the PS3 a single purpose device.

best regards,
Jerry

Just found this- its over for all the discs. Give it 3-5 years.

http://www.vudu.com/

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/06/t...dxnnlx=1190214150-Alz+WgdVnUp61QbVOQm0Cg

I bet Apple computer is saying right now--- POODOO!!

best regards,
Jerry

I would agree completely. A further example would be the success of the DS vs the PSP in the handheld gaming market too as it has that same unique “pick up and play” factor that the Wii boasts, only better as you can take the DS with you wherever you go. Nintendo are at fifty million DS` worldwide and counting which is wonderful considering most wrote it off as a gimmick before it came out. It also shows how these complicated machines that Sony and Microsoft are putting out only really appeal to a certain demographic of the games market (mostly males, in their 20s and up). Sony and Microsoft are simply not competition for Nintendo anymore. Nintendo's doing its own thing with their cheap little fun devices that print money.


As I wrote above, I can`t honestly imagine that more than 300,000 out of the 2million PS3 owners in the US use their console to watch Blu-ray movies. Is that enough? Again, it might be, as there`s only so much the PS3 could have ever realistically achieved in helping Blu-ray. I completely agree however that it`s tiresome hearing the PS3 used to defend Blu-ray player adoption. The vast majority of people who own these next-gen consoles are not even aware they can display games in HD, let alone movies.

On the other hand I would personally consider it unwise to assume all is completely rosy for HD DVDs market share as far as hardware is concerned, just as I would consider it unwise to think they`re not spinning sales data in their own right.



This I think remains the one factor we can`t honestly call just yet. In the long term it may either prove to be an incredibly smart choice, or a very stupid one. I`m not convinced Sony`s expectations of the console`s performance in its first year were quite as high as the industry and various journalistic pundits hyped it up to be. That`s not to say they didn`t get arrogant in expecting more than they got, but if they`re smart then they might well be playing a careful game that could pay off over time. It`s just too early to tell at the moment. Being first to market has its advantages, but might not be too great in the long term. PS3 has unquestionably set itself some lofty goals. Whether it can reach them only time will tell…

You mention had it come to market sooner, and not been saddled with Blu-ray, the PS3 would have been making profits sooner. I still believe this misses the point somewhat. I`ve stated how Sony and Microsoft are fighting their own little battle whilst Nintendo just does its own thing, allowing them to point and laugh by waving their money from the sidelines. This is all true, but again, for Sony and Microsoft, making a decent profit on hardware isn`t what this is about. Due to the nature of the hardware they build, it`s always the software and sales of accessories that will matter to them as it's the games and peripherals that make them their money (and now they both have the lure of online gaming marketplaces imbeeded in their consoles as a further resource of revenue).
For Nintendo it`s easy to make profit on both hardware and software. The Gamecube was in profit back when it launched, and the Wii is effectively a Gamecube with wireless motion control tacked on. As a result Wii sales naturally bring in an awful lot of money for Nintendo and they own a whole chunk of the games market for which they have no direct competition. The battle is really for second place this generation.

One thing I will say for Blu-ray`s integration in the PS3 is that there is demand for more capacity in the games development industry and I think there are some clever ways developers/publishers will abuse this benefit over time - not just in terms of making bigger and more extravagant games - but also from the point of view that the capacity can allow them to tailor a single pressing to suit multiple territories as they can fill the space with multiple languages and text based translations without having to go to the trouble of localizing releases for specific territories anymore. We`re on the cusp of seeing games that are beginning to make use of the disc space already. The problem is that given so many games are multi-platform these days developers will design to the lowest common denominator in order to provide an even experience between platforms. As a result it may only be the Playstation`s exclusive titles that go to any great effort to make use of the disc space handed to them, at least for the time being.

I have always detected at least some degree of sincerity from Sony Computer Entertainment with regards to why they consider Blu-ray to have significant advantages for gaming. Blu-ray wasn`t really forced upon the gaming division as many think, but instead there was one of those rare unanimous agreements amongst varying divisions at Sony that it will be the best way forward (though certainly each division within the company had differing agendas as to why they wanted Blu-ray in the console).

Daniel, as usual youve made your case well. You are a gentleman and a scholar my friend.

best regards,
Jerry

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Warner/Paramount/Fox/Disney/Top_Studio_Execs_Spar_Over_Blu-ray,_HD_DVD/985

Every time I try to get more positive about this whole mess these idiots come out with this ' there is no war ' crap and it makes me want to go back to Ld if not Vhs !!

Bloody idiots !

~M~

I'm really surprised! I have a 60" 1080p SXRD RPTV in my family room and on that HDDVD is significantly better than DVD - at least to my eyes. Haven't asked my wife, though.

Simon, the key part there is to your eyes. Most people think MP3s sound fantastic.

Manus, I think that is a little bit of sensationalism. I think all the partisan comments ring hollow.

best regards,
Jerry

Sigh! I suppose you are right. Not all that long ago I tried an experiment of showing a 16:9 movie fully stretched across my 2.35:1 screen. None of my friends seemed to notice anything was wrong (or they were too polite ....naaah!).

I've even seen wrong aspect ratios showing at trade shows, pointed this out to the staff and been told "What's wrong with that.".