Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems The one of MANY HD-DVD threads (No bashing Blu-Ray)

First here are some new Hd-dvds to look forward to , Warner's have said these are either finished or works in progress though few have release dates yet ( Twister's just been announced for January 2008 ) . Strayed across this on digitalbits so grain of salt neccessary etc

10,000 B.C., Appleseed Ex Machina, The Assassination of Jesse James, August Rush, The Aviator, Batman, Batman Anime, Bonnie and Clyde, Brave One, The Bucket List, Casablanca, The Cincinnati Kid, Clash of the Titans, Cool Hand Luke, Dark Knight, The Dead Pool, Dirty Harry, The Enforcer, Eraser, The Exorcist, Falling Down, The Feast of Love, Fool's Gold (2008), Fred Claus, Friends: The Complete First Season, Get Smart, The Goonies, The Green Mile, Kenneth Branagh's Hamlet, Heat, I Am Legend, In the Valley of Elah, The Invasion, Justice League: The New Frontier, King Kong (1933), L.A. Confidential, Lethal Weapon: Director's Cut, Lethal Weapon 2: Director's Cut, License to Wed, Magnum Force: Deluxe Edition, Men, Michael Clayton, Natural Born Killers, Nights in Rodanthe, No Reservations, The Omega Man, One Missed Call, Poltergeist, The Promise (2006), Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, The Shawshank Redemption, Smallville: The Complete First Season, The Sopranos: Season 6, Part 2 (due 10/23), Speed Racer, Spring Breakdown, Sudden Impact, Superman Doomsday, Superman II (theatrical version), That's Entertainment, That's Entertainment 2, That's Entertainment 3, a That's Entertainment Trilogy Giftset, Twister, The West Wing: The Complete Seventh Season, Whiteout, The Wizard of Oz,Harry Potter 5 Film Giftset .



Here is Mr. Hunt's latest analysis of the situation as of 13/09/2007 on htf unedited :

" Okay, everyone else seems to have had their say now, so I think it`s time that I chimed in here with a few long-winded words.

Let me be clear and explain a few things...

We like both formats at The Digital Bits. They're both technically great. Each has its own subtle strengths over the other, but neither stands above the other quality wise, and both deliver great high-def video and high-res audio performance. We've said as much on The Bits many, MANY times. We`ve even reviewed more HD-DVDs than Blu-ray titles.

The high-quality of both formats aside, however, our experience tells us that the home video community - early adopters and high-end enthusiasts aside - does not need, nor does it want, two formats that serve the same purpose. Retailers don't want two formats, average consumers don't want two formats, most people who actually have to work in the industry don't want two formats. And we believe that combo players and discs are a solution ONLY to enthusiasts. Even awareness that they exist requires a level of knowledge and involvement in the subject matter that most average consumers just don't have, nor do they have the time or desire to develop.

Our experience also tells us that if two formats continue to battle it out for another year or more, consumer interest will wane even more than it already has and neither format will EVER have the chance to become a thriving business success. We've seen this result time and again with other format/standards battles. And while some of you, who can afford to purchase both Blu-ray and HD-DVD, might be enjoying what could be considered an embarrassment of riches right now, this situation will not continue indefinitely. If the industry decides that neither format really has a chance to succeed, they`ll start spending their money elsewhere looking for the next big thing, and the gravy train of titles and players will start to dry up. All enthusiasts - even the ones who love both formats - will lose in that eventuality.

Fearing this result, we at The Bits weighed the strengths and weaknesses of both formats and decided that we would choose to actively support the one that best met the needs of EVERYONE - not just high-end enthusiasts looking for all the newest bells and whistles, but the one that was in the better position to have a chance at widespread adoption. In our assessment, that was Blu-ray Disc. The format has significantly more studio and hardware support, even AFTER Paramount and DreamWorks' recent decision. It's been outselling HD-DVD on the software front more than 2 to 1 almost since it launched. Stand-alone Blu-ray hardware sales are now starting to pull even and possibly even surpass HD-DVD according to the latest retail numbers. It's not a bias to point that out, it's just how we read the facts. It's long seemed to us that Blu-ray has more momentum than HD-DVD, which translates into a higher likelihood for retailer support and consumer interest.

Those things that people site as technically superior about HD-DVD: more strict spec compliance, Internet connectivity, downloading options, better early high-res audio support... there is nothing preventing those things from being added to or improved in Blu-ray Disc. Indeed, as we saw with DVD in the first few years, it took time to add RSDL dual-layer functionality and DTS compatibility, along with any number of other features. They came with time. But few of those features are as important to mainstream consumers as the ability to purchase most of their favorite films. Every study that's ever been done on the subject indicates that the vast majority of people NEVER EVEN LOOK at most of the extras on DVD special editions, or if they do, they do so once and never again. It seems to us that emphasizing a format's bells and whistles over something so basic as studio support is putting the cart before the horse. And if you are upset that Blu-ray doesn't have the strict spec compliance, Internet connectivity, downloading options and better early high-res audio support that you want as an enthusiast... YOU ARE THE PEOPLE who have the power to change that. You can pressure the BDA to add those things, just as you pressured the industry to support anamorphic widescreen transfers on DVD.

We've been completely open and honest about why we chose Blu-ray Disc at The Bits, yet despite this HD-DVD supporters continue to spread rumors that we're being paid by Sony to back Blu-ray. Wishing it were the case just does not make it true. The fact is, plenty of professionals - in fact, in our experience, the majority of them - who work in and around this industry have come to the same conclusions we have without being paid by Sony. I'd also like to point out to those who continue to exclaim angrily about our bias, that there is a long history of publications taking sides in controversial issues. Newspapers have been taking editorial positions since the dawn of the press. The Digital Bits is and has always been an editorial publication. We post the news and then give you our perspective. If you don`t like or agree with it, that`s fine. We understand that. But lately when some don't like our perspective, a few of them have chosen to lash out and attack our credibility and spread rumors that we're being paid. When that doesn't work, some go so far as to attack us personally. A few have even threatened us in more serious ways. Such behavior reflects not upon us, but upon those who engage in it. The fact is, we believe in our opinions and our choices, and we're going to continue to stand by our convictions. And while we're far from perfect, we've been proven right more often than not in the past, so it seems that we attract that much more attention not just from those who prefer HD-DVD but from those who are paid to promote it.

Let`s face it… we`ve seen empty promises from BOTH camps. “Blu-ray`s been promising BD-Java and picture-in-picture for months now and not delivering,” HD-DVD fans angrily tell us in e-mails. But what about the empty promises of HD-DVD? At CES this past January, we heard that porn was going to win the format war for HD-DVD (it hasn`t), that TotalHD was going to be the salvation of both formats (it`s not coming until next year at the earliest, if at all), that combo players would be the answer (only 4% of all players sold to date are combo players and only a few such models are available or announced), that cheap Chinese players would level the playing field (none have yet appeared and the only major one to be announced - the Venturer - won`t be here until the end of the year and even Wal-Mart apparently isn`t carrying it). Now we`re hearing that triple-layer HD-DVD discs will solve all the format`s disc space concerns, when we can`t get roughly 1 in every 3 DVD/HD-DVD Combo discs to work in our Toshiba HD-A2s. I`m sure HD-DVD supporters have a laundry list of similar empty claims made by the BDA too, and many of them are certainly legitimate. My point here is, NEITHER format has a monopoly on promises made and kept. And BOTH of these formats were a mess when they were first launched, and were released well before they were actually ready.

It goes without saying that BOTH sides are paying or otherwise offering incentives to studios, suppliers and retailers to support their format of choice. We can argue forever about whether Sony paid or did not pay Fox, Disney, MGM and Lionsgate to support Blu-ray exclusively. But I think we can all agree that whatever their reasons may have been, none of these studios has ever supported HD-DVD by releasing titles. And nothing Toshiba or the HD-DVD Group has done to encourage that situation to change has had the desired result. On the other hand, Warner, Paramount and DreamWorks HAVE all supported both formats, claiming that that was what they believed was in the best interests of consumers. And we now know, according to numerous press reports many by mainstream publications (and at least one studio exec has admitted) that Toshiba has offered these studios substantial financial incentives not just to continue supporting HD-DVD but to actually drop Blu-ray Disc. This has succeeded with Paramount and DreamWorks, though Warner apparently refused. So where two studios had claimed that it was important to let consumers decide which format they preferred - and market data seemed to indicate that by a 2-to-1 margin that choice was Blu-ray - now they've both suddenly decided that HD-DVD is the better choice for consumers, against tangible evidence to the contrary.

We have NO PROBLEM at The Digital Bits if Disney, Fox, MGM, Lionsgate and Anchor Bay were to start releasing HD-DVDs in addition to Blu-ray Discs tomorrow. It isn't likely to happen, but more power to them if that's what they decide to do. And if you're an HD-DVD supporter and that's what you want them to do, lobby them to do it. If you have enough like-minded people who agree with you, they'll listen eventually. What we do have a problem with is studios that have made a big deal about how great they are for supporting both formats taking money from the HD-DVD camp to STOP supporting Blu-ray Disc. You simply cannot say, "Every studio should support both and let the consumer decide!" then endorse studios that do support both dropping one after getting paid to do so by the competition. And for those of you who would argue that that's what Sony did with Target… as so many HD-DVD supporters have been quick to remind us, Target still sells HD-DVD software in their stores. They still carry players of both formats on their website. As far as I can tell at every Target I've been to, the only high-def hardware they actually carry right now is the PS3 and maybe the HD-DVD add-on drive for the Xbox 360. They haven't stopped carrying HD-DVD near as I can tell. If they've stopped selling HD-DVD hardware in their stores, is it so hard to believe that it's because it just isn't selling? As for Blockbuster, they say that they've expanded only Blu-ray software so far because that's what the majority of their consumers are asking for. You can accept that or not, but when you look at the software sales numbers, which continue to show at least a 2-to-1 preference for Blu-ray, as well as numbers that indicate that titles released on both formats (like Warner's 300) sell noticeably better on Blu-ray than they do on HD-DVD, we tend believe Blockbuster's claims. People e-mail us to say that Best Buy only has Blu-ray players on their displays up front, and the HD-DVD players are in the back - Sony must be paying them! Sure... or maybe these retailers REALLY ARE just responding to what they're seeing in terms of demand from their customers. I frequent our DVD Planet store here in Orange County, CA - the clerks there tell me that they're selling more movies on Blu-ray than HD-DVD. Same is true when I ask clerks at Best Buy, at Target, at Circuit City. I`m sure there are exceptions, but the general trend seems to be fairly clear.

The fact is, just as we predicted it would, this format war has split the home theater community and turned far too much of the discussion and debate online ugly and downright mean spirited. People are taking things personally, and they're launching personal attacks at the drop of a hat. People who dare to voice a preference and put forward logical arguments for one format or the other - both enthusiasts and those in the industry press - are attacked for it, accused of bias and blamed for all sort of untrue nonsense. Over the last ten years, we've worked hard at The Bits, just as I know you guys have worked hard here at Home Theater Forum, to see that great movies on DVD can be easily enjoyed by everyone, and that high quality became the rule and not the exception. I don't care how much you love either format and I don't care how fast hardware prices have dropped. I don't see how ANYONE can think that this format war has been a good thing... and I don't see how ANYONE can believe it would be a good thing if it continued for another year, or two years or even longer.

In the meantime, you are all entitled to your opinions, just as we are at The Bits. If you love HD-DVD, more power to you. If you love Blu-ray or both formats, ditto. But it would be nice if more people argued for their HD format of choice based on the logical merits of the actual format, and less on how much someone else is a biased [censored] for disagreeing. It`s getting a little silly when even the people who actually ARE getting paid to promote each format spend more time in the online newsgroups attacking the competition as opposed to promoting the merits of their own. Seriously, as much as we all love movies and home theater, these are NOT matters of life and death. If one or both of these formats dies tomorrow, life will go on. You may have lost a few bucks on hardware and software, but that's the price you pay for being an early adopter.

People need to take a deep breath and think twice before attacking others over this stuff. Take it from someone who knows firsthand. Lord knows I've reacted without thinking a few times, and said some rash things. And we get attacked at every turn for everything we say, whether it's actually true or not - and most of the time it`s not. Sometimes it's amusing, sometimes it's frustrating, occasionally it's actually valid criticism but often it's just downright unjustified and personal. This format war has really taken a lot of the joy out of home theater, at a time when high-def movies should be the best thing that ever happened to this community. It`s just a shame.

Anyway, that`s just my two cents. And hopefully, it puts our position in a little better perspective, whether you happen to agree with it or not. Take it for what it`s worth.

REGARDLESS, let me just say that we have always had, and will continue to have, nothing but respect for everyone here at Home Theater Forum, both staff and members. As far as we`re concerned at The Bits, our longtime friendship and partnership will continue regardless of any disagreements we may have about HD formats.

Best wishes to all of you,


Bill Hunt, Editor
The Digital Bits
http://www.thedigitalbits.com
billhunt@thedigitalbits.com


And my favourite response :


" There is absolutely no way to sugar coat the garbage Bill has ben passing for news and commentary of late. One might even conjecture that he is on BD payroll. And like Bill, I am sure if I look hard enough, I can probably find something posted that would back up the statement. Bill has little credibility left, and he tends to waste what little he has daily. "

ppltd

Fortunately , we dont indulge in slings and arrows here and I have chosen no longer to visit digitalbits not because of any BD bias but because of the 'News man more important than the News ' syndrome from which Mr.Hunt seems to be suffering .

Happy viewing on any format ,

~M~

Thanks for the info. Hunts argument js basically BR association argument: more players/ more studios / more sales: BRD should win. Seems like a good argument but the guy from HD Digest takes it apart: maybe the current market is miniscule (it is) and maybe its about future sales and which one loses less money. Interesting to say the least. I do think the performance of both is excellent and in the end Hunt maybe right that if there remains a format war with such a small market its posssible to repeat DVDA/SACD. Just that this will take longer to play out.

Best regards,
Jerry

I don` think there`s anything necessarily wrong with someone like Hunt picking a side. I do detect sincerity in his desire for a single format, and I don`t subscribe to the accusations that he is being paid to promote a pro Blu-ray stance. That said, his failure as a journalist - and he has never been a great one -is his lack of objectivity, the best example of which I suppose would be his inability to highlight Blu-ray`s flaws as well as its strengths, chiefly its hardware which is hindered by multiple profiles shifting the specification of players leaving the consumer none the wiser in regards to what they are getting.

The odds remain in Blu-ray`s favour however. The manufacuting support behind the format is immense, it is at an advantage in software sales and - perhaps most importantly of all - some retailers are beginning to show signs of favouring the format over HD DVD. These are realistic advantages. The latter is quite crucial in my opinion as I`ve long been of the opinion that the only ones who can steer us toward a single format future will be the retailers. Now none of this is to say Blu-ray will win of course, but it should as even after the Paramount defection the format still has so much momentum in its favour, globally, not just domestically in the US. This doesn`t mean the format is assured of success however, in fact if anything it needs to firmly make significant advances in the marketplace over its competitor in the forth quarter. Losing the winter season to HD DVD, or even entering the new year in a similar stalemate scenario to which we find the formats in right now, would be very embarrassing for the Blu side and there`s every chance it could happen.

I quite like Josh Zyber`s take on some of the ins and outs of the format feud. He`s right to look at things objectively, although I do think he makes mistakes in comparing sales of HD media to those of present day DVD sales. He does this quite often, but I fail to understand what it is meant to tell us. Compare HD media sales to DVD sales of ten years ago, and the picture is a little more interesting, and indeed relevant. Blu-ray is actually hitting a lot of the disc shipment and sales milestones in its first eighteen months as DVD did over a similar time period in 1997/98.

I do agree with Hunt on one key point, mind you, and that`s how the existence of two formats have senselessly divided home theatre enthusiasts to an almost disturbing degree. Although I never posted at AVS, I used to read it frequently, but these days I find it unbearable. The “us and them” mentality is completely bizarre, and unfortunately it`s being fuelled by a handful of whatever remaining industry insiders they have left over there.

Daniel,
I think youve got it right, but I would chime in about comparing the sales. I think all the comparisons have problems because 10 years ago the consumer market did not have iPods or downloads, etc. The paradigm is always changing. I think the point that all the HD disc sales combined are very small is a big deal because right now, even if one is outselling the other by a big amount / retailers/ etc/ if that "leader" disappeared, the cost to switch to the alternative is low. I agree, I would give the advantage to BRD, but at the same time, I was thinking it was just a matter of time for HDDVD to fold and now I am not so sure. I think they are making it competitive again. They still have the tougher road IMHO for the reasons you illustrated.

best regards,
Jerry

As far as comparing overall sales goes, it`s right to say that compared to ten years ago consumers are spoilt for choice with regards to how they obtain and view the content they want. However, the fact we have all these choices contributes to my belief that HD media sales figures really aren`t all that bad in the grand scheme of things.

I don`t disagree that there`s every chance sales figures could flip after the fourth quarter. Again, this is really why even maintaining the 2:1 ratio in sales come January would be considered bad for Blu-ray since given their momentum and all their boasting, they ought have little excuse not to pass Christmas with at least a 4:1 advantage. Whether they will or not only time will tell. Both formats face an uphill struggle this winter, it`s just that one is slightly further up the hill at the moment. The Blu group got lazy and let their guard down before and suffered the consequences last year. They`d best not make the same mistakes again.


I think HD DVD have set themselves up pretty well for the 4th quarter. Exclusives like Shrek, Bourne Ultimatum and Transformers will be big, and then there are dual format biggies like the Harry Potter titles. They announced at CEDIA they will be extending their five free movie offer yet again, this time to February, so I certainly think they`ve got a very attractive product thanks to the hardware prices and the free disc offers. In addition Toshiba also said Bourne Identity and 300 will be packed in the box with all their 3rd gen players this autumn/winter, so the buyer is effectively getting seven movies for nothing. Great strategy and it will unquestionably shift a lot of players. If Toshiba would introduce a region free hack for standard DVD playback on their European models I really wouldn't think twice about getting one.

Yes, this is an excellent point. I don't even bother to visit the HDDVD/BR sites on AVS anymore as they have become dominated by 'if you don't agree with me then you must be getting paid by ...' kinds of threads. What a load of tripe!

I must confess, it was my hope back 18 months ago that this format competition would be resolved quickly and decisively - much as DiVX was trounced by DVD! Clearly that is now not the case, and I find myself somewhat symathetic to Bill Hunt's argument that selecting/advocating the format that he believes is most likely to win helps to drive to single format (although he is not influential enough to make any kind of real difference).

I just hope, at the end of the day, that there is enough market interest (despite the dual formats) to avoid another SACD/DVD-A fiasco.

simon

I dont see a Divx/DVD conclusion this time simply because both these formats are capable of delivering equally great PQ/SQ . I think HD is a hard-sell now because in their quest for greater profits the studios have nonsensically split their target audience ( apart from those with the means to own both formats and also those happy and content with their one format of choice) .

As stated earlier , Hunt journalistically failed miserably in not reporting Bd failures ( eg. which Version BD player should new HD recruits buy , Bill ? )at the same time as he was pointing the finger at the Hd-DVD crowd for simply 'prolonging the War' .

With the advent of dual-format players soon , maybe it would be more helpful if some more fence-sitters threw their hats into the ring and started to buy some software and enjoy the movies again !

~M~

Do I catch you shifting a glance in my direction in writing that?

Nope ! , Honest !
Just pointing out that people should make their own minds' up and not rely on Mr.Hunt and his ilk . Ther's just too much smoke and horse++++ on the web .

Also , finance does come into it for lots of people (me included as I pointed out in another thread ) , but you cant wish either of these formats away just to make the choice easier , tech specs are just too close.

The whole situation is just so dumb , its frustrating.And this just in : http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Forecasts/Report_Predicts_Blu-ray,_HD_DVD_to_Co-Exist/971


Happy Viewing !

~M~

/glance

OOOOoooooffffffffff!!!!!!!!



~M~

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Forecasts/Report_Predicts_Blu-ray,_HD_DVD_to_Co-Exist/971

My original feeling was we are headed down the DVD-A/SACD road and after some thought on the matter- I think that is going to be the ultimate destination for all the reasons we've already mentioned.

That said, Im hooked so I will continue to add to my collection of HD discs and when the formats do die, Ill still have something tangible.

best regards,
Jerry