Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems What is Meridians Special Sauce? What is your take

I own both an Oppo and the G98 player feeding a G68 processor. I agree with VK that the Oppo is as good as a CD player with my G68. The rest of the system is the 5000 series speakers with a D2500 sub. The one exception is DVD-Audio where Meridian is in it's own class. The difference is not subtle but very large. I have also compared the audio with an AppleTV and hear little differences with CD's as well.

It seems that the processor does such a good job that more commodity priced players that deliver digital information will sound very very good. Of course, there are other benefits of having the matching pair from an operational point of view.

Actually there have been discussions of good ripping I think it was MarkH that wrote an excellent post on using EAC etc.

Getting the bits off intact these days is fairly easy even with cheap equipment. The same $100.00 ROM drive ($20.00 on E-bay surplus) used in the 598, G98 can get the bits off as well as my $50.00 toshiba compouter ROM.

A lot of high priced CD player companies go to huge costs to just get the bits off with seperate power supplies for the mechanical, digital and analog systems. And complex mechanical dampening. This is just utter nonsense. But if folks want to use that argument the squeezebox totally isolates the digital process by having a seperate standalone device dedidicated to that one task.

Reading bits slower and repeatably until you get them right is easier on the PC than in a player because you have more time. You also have the time to compute checksums and compare your results to public databases to verify quality.

So I don't even factor reading CD's into the equation and if anything I suggest a PC can do it better.

The only difference is playing it. And playing the digital stream just isn't that hard to do today. Sure the 800 or 808 may have better jitter (we don't really know) because it's fairly hard to measure in way everyone agrees. It's also argued very heavily if humans can even hear the effects of 50ps of jitter effect on the DAC (on the AVS Forums).

And the ability of the 861 to copy the bits to a memory buffer and reclock them out internally really equals the playing field. Again as I stated above the 861 recieves every single bit from a 800 to SqueezeBox (fairly easy to test and prove with digital outputs on the 861).

800/808/G98's (to me) make sense for analog setups. Where they can do their dejitter thing internally before the DACs. They also seemlessly operate in all Meridian setups and cosmetically match the processor. But for playing CD's into a Meridian processor they have little added value to the audio quality.

If you really want to improve on this. You have to have a single master clock (external word clock) that drives the DAC and the transmission of bits from the CD buffer (which is done probably in analog versions of 808i).

I'm not sure about the Dolby certification process George, but I'm pretty certain that Meridian psycho-acoustics has more to do with collective channel separation, steering, levels and the like, rather than magic at the individual DAC level. I think this is one of the reasons why you hear so much more ambience and detail with Meridian processing of bitstreams than with other manufacturers' kit. I don't see what Meridian would have to gain by re-writing the "same" decoding algorithm.

Besides, Meridian do most of Dolby's advanced research for them these days. Dolby effectively pays for the salaries of Meridian's DSP team through consultancy fees. Meridian could probably get away with murder!

Whether its jitter in the WiFi devices or not is a major question

There also could be more rageing RF.

We hope RFI is suppressed in M processors.

I can hear the difference.

Roger IMHO

Hi
I hope am not causing to many arguments here about sound quality. All I know is I can here differences with analogue cables digital cables speaker cables. Processors CD players and amps and speakers. My wife can also tell the difference we have not got super hearing. I had a ps3 the sound was crap sold it and bought a dedicated Bluray player.



System Meridian G68j 598dvd, 2 557, 1 556 power amps, m33center, Sony Bluray bdps1es, Sony pearl 1080p projector. Grndview cyber series 16.9 8-foot electric screen. Panasonic 42in 1080p plasma TV. Front Dali helicon 400, Dali in wall back speakers, Snell ps10sub, Chord signature cables all round. X-box 360HD add on. And ISOTEK power supply and cables.

Actually for folks that do use computers directly as their digital source, Sounds Cards do make a difference as well as drivers. And they have been discussed on this forum although not extensively.

In addition to some high quality sound cards, the Airport Expresses, Squeeze Boxes, Roku's etc. are simply "Remote" sound cards with Digital and Analog outputs. Rather than talk to these "Sound Cards (Devices)" over PCI they talk to them over Ethernet and WIFI (which it plenty fast and robust enough for digital music with zero jitter and zero error).

Wait a minute. This part of the thread started with the comparison of Apple Lossless into a Squeezbox versus CD Replay on a G91. The statement made (and subsequently seconded by several posters) was that there was No Difference when routed thru a Meridian Processor.

Not sure how we get from ripping to Apple Lossless to lectures on the merits of Exact Audio Copy (EAC, which is an excellent product by the way and one that I have used myself for Archiving)

Many, if not most, on this forum talk about ripping from CD DIRECT to Lossless using iTunes or similar. For iTunes, there is little mention of the importance of enabling Error Checking or of disabling some of the Presets within iTunes. How we got from Apple Lossless to EAC escapes me

I feel pretty sure that the originators of Exact Audio Copy (well named by the way) will gladly extol the virtues of their method over the Linear Predictive Coding (LPC) method used by Apple Lossless and FLAC

However, my main original point was that the PLAYER (or Remote Sound Card like Squeezbox and Sonos) has a TANGIBLE Role to play in Music Reproduction, even when fed to a Meridian Processor and / or Speakers. The decoding (and subsequent timing) of ALAC or FLAC in the Player has a part to play; the Digital Output stage to the Meridian Processor plays a part; the connecting cable has a role to play. I think it`s ironic that many on this same forum (including a recent new post) are calling for Meridian to launch a Music Server CLIENT. If all Players and Remote Devices (Squeezbox / Sonos) sound the same, what benefits can Meridian possibly bring with their undoubtedly MUCH more expensive option (if they launch one)

It`s safe to say that the Processor and Speakers have a greater role in the overall Music Replay experience, but my point is that in my experience, the Player matters.

Others may disagree which is fine. But their OPINIONS should not be put forward as Non-Negotiable Facts, because they simply are not.

RHurely, I think your a bit all over the map. No you are all over the map and dead wrong (using your words). I really think your post above is really confusing the underlying topic. Which is a Music Server (done right) is as good (or not as good) as a high CD Transport.

Please STOP saying we never discuss Sound Cards. Fact, your wrong here.

Please STOP saying we never discuss enabling error checking, or other iTunes suggestions we have. Fact, your wrong here.

And for that matter so what if we didn't there are plenty of resources out there that do.

You are completely mixing apples and oranges with your statement around the EAC "method" and Apple Lossless and FLAC "method". EAC isn't a FORMAT !! It's and extract tool that only extracts WAV natively then calles any encoder you want. This really makes me question your qualifications on the whole topic. Very confusing and very incorrect statement. You are very confused here (or you simply mistyped your statement because as written it's very wrong or at least very confusing what your trying to say).

There really isn't much about "timing" in a FLAC file. There is the sample rate and word size in the header that simply tells that hardware how to interpret the data (how it should be clocked out). How they are losslessly compressed has nothing to do with anything here and timing is does the same with all formats (it's just a number in the header).

It really doesn't matter if we are talking iTunes or EAC or Sonos. As long as it's done right.

The decoding is trivial to get 100% correct and plays no role in quality differences (for any lossless format). If it's decoding wrong even a little wrong it would be a pretty lame implementation.

The only part that is correct above is the Digital Output Stage does play a role. Which I (and some others) think is good enough for human ears over SPDIF and given Meridian processors minimize jitter for all sources including SqueezeBoxes, 800's, 808's, G91's and G98's, 598 etc.

If you bothered to read my post on the suggestion for a Music Server Client more carefully. There are plenty of advantages. You seem to be just fishing for debate now.

1) It's better integrated. A lot of us pay big bucks for full Meridian systems just because they play nice together.

2) It could look a lot nice together (i.e. getting rid of the squeezenbox). A lot of us want to minmize boxes and brands for a a clean simple look. The SqueezeBox 3 does look a little dorky.

3) Meta data tags in your Music Files could instruct the Meridian processors to set your preferred settings per song or CD (Originally suggested by VirusKiller I think).

4) ALL transports 808, 800, G98, 598, etc. have a theoretical weak link. That is, SPDIF (independently running clocks with oneway transmission no feedback). Commercial/Pro systems have a global word clock. Usually orginated by the DAC clock. This is fed back to the digital source to exactly clock the data between components exactly at the rate the DAC can consume. This is not 100% Jitter free but it is 100% drift free which can allow Dejitter circuits to work 100% perfectly. If the SqueezeBox interface was integrated it could use a common clock and dejittering would work even better than a 808/861 pair could over SPDIF. How much this would audibly help I don't know. But in theory no one could argue it wasn't the most superior setup. I'll bet the 861V5 or V6 comes up with better interfaces between 800 components. MHR helps but I believe it's still one way SPDIF and independently clocked.

This is why "Integrated" systems in high end audio are so popular because they can control things much tighter within the box and don't have to drop down to consumer interfaces. Since the 800,G,5xx transports all use the same weak link as the SqueezeBox it puts them in similar ballpark especially with the SPDIF dejitter present in Meridian processors.

There is actually a lengthy discussion on the SlimDevices forum of someone who has tapped the I2S interface within the SqueezeBox and coupled this to a highend DAC that accepts I2S. Eliminating the weak SPDIF interface.

Even though SPDIF is the weak link it may be good enough even though it is the weakest link.

That's a good point that spinners make noise.

CD's also deteriorate over time and handling (small scratches and nicks), FLAC files do not.

Now George, it`s you who appear to be disingenuous. Questioning my “qualifications” just because I happen to disagree with you and then making false claims about what I`m supposed to have posted

First of all the things I NEVER said

• Didn`t say that EAC was a “Format” as you claim. Merely that they have a chosen method or a Process for producing an Uncompressed WAV file that is an “Exact Audio Copy”.

• Did not say that Apple Lossless ripping was NEVER discussed. I said, “Little Mention”. Same with Sound Cards. Big difference


Likewise, I didn`t say that Apple Lossless was a Format. Merely that Linear Predictive Coding (LPC) is the method used to produce an MP4 Container with the Lossless Data contained within. Obviously this is different to an Uncompressed WAV File produced using EAC

As regards “completely mixing up”, it was you who introduced EAC (and Uncompressed WAV) into a discussion about Apple Lossless ripped music playing from a Squeezebox into a Meridian processor. I COMPLETELY understand that EAC produces an Uncompressed WAV File for Archiving purposes. However, that is not what SNS was originally claiming (and your subsequent backing statement) when he said he saw no difference with Apple Lossless to a Squeezbox (there was no mention of Uncompressed WAV or EAC in either of your original posts)

As regards Points 1 and 2 regarding a Meridian Music Server Client, I strongly doubt that too many people will pay Meridian`s asking price purely for “playing” or “Looking” nice together. I suspect that most will only pay Meridian`s asking price for Superior Musical Performance (the same reason as I have chosen the Meridian components that I have chosen in the past. Cosmetics have little personal appeal and the units are concealed anyway.)

I won`t be drawn by SNS`s rants and religious beliefs of his own.

I will withdraw from this Thread at this stage while still holding to the opinion that the Player / Server still matters and that there are audible differences between a Sony CD Walkman Opt out; a Squeezbox / Sonos unit and lastly a Meridian Player (all into an M Processor). At least we can agree on your statement about a “Music Server (DONE RIGHT)”

I promise not to question your qualifications if you promise not to question mine.

So, to have a true "audiophile" setup with ripped music, you need a slim device transporter (with a word clock) a separate higher end DAC with a word clock (Esoteric, DCS) AND a separate sever to store the data!

Wow, that's tough.

When you use the Meridian "link", do you get this level of sync? That is, when you use a Meridian player with a Meridian processor and then attach to a set of Meridian speakers, does this proprietary Meridian link between the two boxes, have this sync?

If so, then Meridian needs to get on this, quickly! What I worry about though is the data storage. I don't want a Meridian hard drive, just a network connection.

No, you don't get that "sync" with Meridian links. Would it be audibly better to the human ear than SPDIF, I don't know, I don't have one to compare.