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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 148
Hitchhiker
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Hitchhiker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 148 |
Seriously though- its not like the PS3 isnt selling- its sold out. That wasn't very hard to do considering the few consoles they had available. The real test is how badly those who didn't get one are trying to get one. The answer is that auctions for PS3 are doing very bad by comparison to just about every other console launch in recent history. It's like no one really cares right now.
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 526
Paranoid android
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Paranoid android
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 526 |
The HD DVD event at PJ Hi Fi was wonderful. I used to moderate a major forum some years ago, and consequently am no stranger to being wooed, and indeed manipulated by eager executives from studios and manufacturers. Such past experience has taught me to know when I am being played by these people, but I can honestly say that I could not have felt more comfortable with the way stories and opinions were presented to us this evening. I am incredibly grateful to Amir and Kevin from Microsoft for their sincere and candid nature which allowed us to voice our own questions, opinions and concerns freely both during the presentation, and afterwards as we all dined on the assorted nibbles set out thanks to the expert hospitality of all at PJ Hi-Fi. The evening (which was made up of two presentations. One for a 4pm crowd, and another repeated for a 7pm audience) seemed to be a big success. Now, obviously, there is little I am allowed to divulge. I will say that the history of the format war as revealed from the point of view of Microsoft could not leave you any more repulsed by corporate mentality and internal politics, all of which has lead to the sorry situation we`re stuck in now with multiple formats and, multiple video codecs and so forth. ‘Keep it Simple` would have been in his element hearing all this, shouting “I [censored] told you bozos!” (  ), though little was presented as being entirely the fault of Sony. It was not a Sony bashing seminar by any stretch of the imagination. Indeed, we`re really at the mercy of a whole host of greedy decision makers here. Seeing a glimpse of what can be achieved with these formats in the home this evening was a thrill, especially for those of us who aspire to one day reach levels of film presentations under our own roofs that the likes of Mark are already enjoying. It is astonishing that this level of quality is available to us. I have never, in all my life, seen a consumer format that it such an honest representation of the filmed image. We watched clips from a number of titles this evening, a highlight of which for me was Casablanca, boasting an image so glorious I practically wept having never seen it look this good, this detailed, in my lifetime. What I find particularly astounding about the VC1 codec, aside from its dynamic toolset, is just how analogue it looks. Via the Qualia 004 projector, whilst these were images that can still be rivalled by the best 35mm show prints a handful are fortunate enough to see for major films in select cities, I`ve never seen a digital codec deliver such a rich analogue film like quality. I remain concerned for HD DVD as it goes into 2007, worrying that it will fail to maintain its momentum against a potentially bloated catalogue of exclusives Bluray might unleash onto the world. There were certainly some things we learnt tonight that suggested even that may not even ensure smooth sailing for HD DVDs competitor, but whether that`s true or not remains to be seen. There`s no denying those backing HD DVD are unrivalled in their sincere passion for wanting to deliver a wonderful product, and one that has pretty much consistently delivered quality from the outset, in great part to the wonderful VC1 codec and its encoder. On these grounds alone, it remains difficult not to want to stand up for this little engine that could and wish it the great success that I believe - now more than ever - it so richly deserves. And that`s really the point. You can`t tout HD DVD on the basis alone that it can be perceived as “the little guy` in this shameful format battle, but you can tout it for delivering on the level of quality control that we expect of HD optical media. I can think of a number of occasions where Bluray has made its success out to be inevitable, and many of us at one time or another might have perceived them to make salient points, though we did so assuming they could deliver. Consequently, so far, each time Bluray has made bold claims be it at CES in January of this year, then the actual launch of the format in May, then the launch of the PS3, HD DVD has gone from strength to strength. Now, with CES 2007 looming, they`re at it again, claiming now will be the time of Bluray. We can but wait and see.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,332
Working on the ultimate question
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Working on the ultimate question
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,332 |
Thanks for the piece DanielB,it was nicely done. Sounds like that Microsoft guy on AVS site though. I wish HD DVD all the best while it lasted. By the way my Tosh does a much better job on SD DVD then my BD player.That is more reason to keep it around.
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 526
Paranoid android
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Paranoid android
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 526 |
Sounds like that Microsoft guy on AVS site though. As Mark noted earlier. It is.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950 Likes: 19
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
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President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950 Likes: 19 |
I thought that Amir, Kevin and PJ HiFi put on a good show but must admit it failed to wow me. I guess my pre conceptions were for something perfect and disappointingly it failed to live up to my expectations. This is partly for two reasons, the deinterlacing/frame rate conversion was not perfect due to issues with the external scaler that they could not get to work and the difference in viewing conditions that I am use to - 32" LCD display at 10-12' rather than an 8' PJ screen at similar distance.
Other than deinterlacer and frame rate issues (which disappointedly currently need the assistance of an external processor to cure), plus scaler issues due to first generation HD-DVD player (even with a 1080 screen, the scaling capabilities of the HD player are still important as interactive features may cause the image to be resized - apparently resolved in 2nd gen US and 1st gen Eur models) I only spotted one defect in the image which I though was a pretty good show.
However I must admit, apart from the limitations of my display technology, I am happy with good quality SD with my home viewing conditions. Short of a very large screen, I feel this will be the case with most of Joe Public if they are honest with themselves. Much as I am pleased with my Squeezebox giving me 99% of the quality of my G98, my not insignificant existing investment of G98 and DVD collection give me 99% of what I want without considerable additional expense for little or no gain.
The logo we all got on our t-shirt "The look and sound of perfect" is a very good description. Having been use to DVD-A for over 3 years, I am use to the sound of perfect. But a poorer quality MPEG encoder can also look perfect to me in many different viewing conditions, the exception being very large screen in perfect viewing environment. Likewise the same for SD.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to go HD, and yesterdays demonstration backed up my own views that HD-DVD is indeed the better consumer orientated format of the two (yes, on paper blu-ray looks better but reality can be something different), but the cost of software and doubts over long term future of both HD-DVD and blu-ray outweigh the benefits to me in my viewing conditions.
One piece of irony is the David and Goliath battle with Microsoft starring as David. Love them or hate their parent company, one must commend the small group of dedicated people producing something this good. But in true Microsoft tradition, is it just another case of something new (and often bloated like Office) that is overkill for Joe Public? I am not so sure, I think this time, VC-1 is the saviour of HD-DVD, allowing a lesser specced format to bat at the same level, and often exceed, that of (what on paper looks more advanced) blu-ray. Combine this with the hidden extras (like all video and audio codecs being supported and dual video decoders allowing pip) that come with *all* HD-DVD players, and looking past the main feature movie, HD-DVD offers more than blu-ray. Sorry, BR is not King; maybe President or Prime Minister - full of BS, inherently costly and not in the best interest for the majority of the public (and ironically studios).
Just a shame about the politics that have interfered with both formats (and lack of DVD-A support)
Meridian owner since 1992
Prime & PSU, Focal Elear headphones, Roon (ROCK 8Gi5 NUC), Explorer 1 & 2, F80. 200/203, various Sonos (via Roon).
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 526
Paranoid android
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Paranoid android
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 526 |
One piece of irony is the David and Goliath battle with Microsoft starring as David. Love them or hate their parent company, one must commend the small group of dedicated people producing something this good. But in true Microsoft tradition, is it just another case of something new (and often bloated like Office) that is overkill for Joe Public? I am not so sure, I think this time, VC-1 is the saviour of HD-DVD, allowing a lesser specced format to bat at the same level, and often exceed, that of (what on paper looks more advanced) blu-ray. Combine this with the hidden extras (like all video and audio codecs being supported and dual video decoders allowing pip) that come with *all* HD-DVD players, and looking past the main feature movie, HD-DVD offers more than blu-ray. Sorry, BR is not King; maybe President or Prime Minister - full of BS, inherently costly and not in the best interest for the majority of the public (and ironically studios). Nicely put. Sorry I didn't get to say hello to you last night actually. Would have been nice to meet another Hitchhiker. I didn't realise Ianh64 is your good self, though obviously I was at the 4pm and you the 7pm show. That amused me actually. Save for David/Lyris who was with us as we talked with Amir between talks, everyone else for the 7pm talk filed in quietly behind him and he didn't notice until Elliot had to tap him on the shoulder to let him know it was time to do it all over again. I'm sure I am right in assuming Amir and Kevin had still lost none of their enthusiasm for discussing the same things with the second audience. The dead Lumagen was a pity I agree. The Qualia 004 did a decent enough job considering, mind you. It was also a pity the other team did not make it over from France with the second gen player.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950 Likes: 19
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
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President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950 Likes: 19 |
Actually with 3 Ian's in the front row of the 4pm meet, I found it rather amusing that there was at least one other Ian for the 7pm showing. Alas, I think I was sitting next to you  but at the time didn't put 2 & 2 together.
Meridian owner since 1992
Prime & PSU, Focal Elear headphones, Roon (ROCK 8Gi5 NUC), Explorer 1 & 2, F80. 200/203, various Sonos (via Roon).
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,733 Likes: 88
Don't Panic!
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Don't Panic!
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,733 Likes: 88 |
Originally posted by Mark_H:
the XA-1 (and probably other machines) will also play UK discs as long as it has the latest firmware (2.0). Mark - I assume you mean UK HD DVD discs? From what I've read, the XA1 won't do PAL (DVDs?). BTW, what is the difference between US and UK HD DVDs? I couldn't see anything relating to this listed under the 2.0 firmware information on Tosh's web site.
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,314
Senior Shouting Officer
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Senior Shouting Officer
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,314 |
Heres an interesting bit of commentary from The DIgital Bits: http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa130.html#saw3 One last bit of high-def news today. There's apparently a report that's been issued by the marketing research firm Cymfony, in which "enthusiast sentiment" about both high-def formats has been measured... sort of. "Blu-ray drowning in negative buzz" says the headline at arstechnica. Basically, Cymfony conducted an informal survey of enthusiast websites, blogs and other places where people are talking about the new HD formats, and found 46 percent more "positive discussions" about HD-DVD than about Blu-ray. Reportedly, this is not because of any complaints about technical deficiencies of the Blu-ray format, but rather because home theater enthusiasts and gamers seem to have a more negative attitude towards Sony right now (for having launched many failed formats in the past, for delaying the PS3 and bumping up the cost, and for a general perception of corporate arrogance). I've had a few people e-mail this to me this morning, some of them claiming it as proof that HD-DVD is winning the format war (in the same way that select people regularly e-mail me the list of top selling high-def titles on Amazon as proof of one format or the other winning - I can tell you from personal experience that the Amazon numbers are almost meaningless in terms of judging actual strength of sales). Frankly, I wouldn't read too much into any of this, though I'm sure some folks will anyway.
This report is certainly interesting, but it's not really anything new or surprising. It's also not really a fair comparison. The fact is, HD-DVD beat Blu-ray to the market by several months and the HD-DVD supporting studios have released more titles on that format, so it's only naturally going to have more positive buzz. What's more, not only has the Blu-ray camp been slower with both hardware and software, the delay and higher price of the PS3 has drawn loud complaints from gamers, which has skewed the buzz negative. Frankly, I'll be more interested to see measurements of enthusiast sentiment next year, once Warner's Blu-ray slate has caught up to its HD-DVD slate, once Fox, Disney, MGM, Sony and Lionsgate have begun releasing many more exclusive Blu-ray Disc titles (major catalog releases along the lines of the Bond films, Alien, ID4 and the Disney animated films), once there are several million PS3s sold, once Sony and Pioneer's players have finally arrived in stores and once you start to see hardware prices come down a bit.
As I've said before, BOTH formats can (and usually do) deliver outstanding picture and sound quality. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The slight differences in video quality some perceive between the two have less to do with individual format specs, and more to do with quirks or deficiencies of the early players and the different video compression schemes being used to encode the films. Personally, I've discovered that I tend to have a preference for AVC and VC1, which HD-DVD uses exclusively. Most early Blu-ray Discs have been encoded in MPEG-2 which, while adequate, seems to lend a slightly softer look to the resulting image. But more and more Blu-ray titles are being encoded in AVC and VC1 these days, so that difference is starting to become irrelevant. And the more hardware that becomes available for each format, the better one is able to judge overall format quality vs. hardware issues.
Based on what I'm being told by industry sources, Blu-ray Disc should start to close the gap in early 2007, both in terms of hardware availability and the sheer number of titles released. Sales of Blu-ray software are reportedly already on the rise, likely triggered by the debut of the PS3 (although NEITHER camp is yet willing to release specific hardware or software sales figures yet, which tells you a lot about consumer interest in HD discs overall).
I'll be the first to admit that, prior to either format launching, I felt Blu-ray Disc had the clear edge in studio and hardware support. I'll also be the first to admit that I've been VERY impressed with HD-DVD so far, and in particular with the efforts of Warner and Universal to release tons of great catalog titles on the format. However, the Blu-ray studios are only now just starting to really ramp up their catalog release slates, so we haven't yet seen a level playing field between the two formats. That will change in 2007, when both camps will be finally be bringing their A-games to this competition. Only then will enthusiasts be able to make truly fair comparisons between the two formats in terms of hardware and software... and we'll see what happens. It's certainly going to be interesting. I used to read this website almost daily when DVD first started- I remember the war with the then version of "DivX".... I have to admit that I was successfully fighting my early adopter urges until Mark H started me down the HD DVD path. I have been eying the BR players but three things stop me. 1- CES will bring new players. 2- no BR titles that make me say "gotta have it" whereas Apollo 13 and Serenity are titles I will watch over and over and over and 3- my assessment of the marketplace (that these formats will fail) which I still think is correct. best regards, Jerry
Best regards,
Jerry
Main System: 861v6, DSP8000s in corners, DSP7000s Center and Sides, 1-9 humans.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,653 Likes: 1
Working on the ultimate question
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Working on the ultimate question
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,653 Likes: 1 |
Originally posted by VirusKiller: Originally posted by Mark_H:
[b]the XA-1 (and probably other machines) will also play UK discs as long as it has the latest firmware (2.0). UK HD-DVD discs, yes. I continue to play DVDs via my SDI-modded 800.
BTW, what is the difference between US and UK HD DVDs? I couldn't see anything relating to this listed under the 2.0 firmware information on Tosh's web site. Framerates? 24fps in the US and 25fps in the Europe? Mark
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950 Likes: 19
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
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President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950 Likes: 19 |
Originally posted by Mark_H:
[b]
BTW, what is the difference between US and UK HD DVDs? I couldn't see anything relating to this listed under the 2.0 firmware information on Tosh's web site.
Framerates? 24fps in the US and 25fps in the Europe?[/b] As I see it, both US and Euro discs are 24fps for film. Infact last night, for one of the titles, there kinda was a guess what region disc we were being shown by one of the speakers. I think in the end it was decided that the Euro version was identical to the US version, FBI warnings and all. Mark. You may find the HD-XE1 a better bet then your 1st gen XA1 player. Apparently scaling is much improved. Not sure about region encoding of standard DVD's though.
Meridian owner since 1992
Prime & PSU, Focal Elear headphones, Roon (ROCK 8Gi5 NUC), Explorer 1 & 2, F80. 200/203, various Sonos (via Roon).
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,733 Likes: 88
Don't Panic!
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Don't Panic!
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,733 Likes: 88 |
Thanks Mark. Originally posted by Mark_H:
Framerates? 24fps in the US and 25fps in the Europe? I don't think so. I assume it is simply going discs from the regional distributor, but without region coding (AT THE MOMENT :rolleyes: ). I'm not even sure if 25fps has been mandated for HD DVD or BD.
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