Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems BR Is the King OF HD.

I know we're going in circles once again but other factors are things like HD broadcasts - HD already exists in the market place and the number of viewers is growing all the time. Once you get used to HD it's very difficult to accept SD. This will also drive demand for the HD software such as HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. From seeing responses in this forum over the past six months it seems clear the biggest thing holding people back is the format war and until it is resolved many won't jump in. All I can say as always is that you don't know what you're missing. I can see the difference on my 40" Sony Bravia 1080 LCD and on my 15' wide cinema screen the difference is just staggering.

Right now I buy exclusively HD-DVD, but if Blu-Ray gets their act together and starts to deliver image quality comparable to (or better!) than HD-DVD then I will be happy to switch. The one thing that scares me right now (beyond both formats failing) is that the Blu-Ray camp are showing no real intention of moving to VC-1, which is currently the better codec with the disc capacities available, and Blu-Ray's image is generally worse for the use of MPEG2. If Blu-Ray were to win the war and stick with MPEG2 then that would be a serious blow, unless they crack the 50gb discs and increase the bit rate sufficiently to catch up with the VC-1 transfers.

Mark

I found it amusing that Kingdom of Heaven, as good as it looks on Bluray, is MPEG2, and because of this codec choice for a film of this length it required a 50gb disc which they keep hailing as such a magnificent benefit over HD DVD, yet again because of the codec choice and a film that long, even on a 50gb disc the title is forced to be barebones, movie only with (admittedly, 24bit lossless) audio and nothing more than a trailer - effectively depriving people of all the content from the four disc DVD version. Now I don't make much time for extras, but that's hardly a good incentive to make a wider audience want to progress from DVD to an HD format if you're not at the very least going to offer them what they've already got and then add to that by delivering new ways to access the features and above all, superior A/V quality.
A lot of Bluray titles are rather slap dash in this respect, where as I admire HD DVDs supporters for pretty much delivering all the same content from DVD versions in the HD releases of the same movie (there are one or two exceptions. Superman the Movie and King Kong for example). I'm hard pressed to find a Bluray title on release that doesn't make me think “they'll re-issue that in 18 months time with all the content from the DVD version, and possibly with a better video codec…” Mind you if it were not for Warner & Paramount supporting Bluray as well, particularly Warner, I'd be hard pressed to find any films on Bluray I didn't consider utter drivel.

I do hope CES is interesting.

I think the king(s), in this case, are dead, or at least on life support.

As we have discussed in the past, I truly believe these formats do not offer the average consumer any compelling reason to upgrade.

I do not believe the average consumer actually has the display capability to see it, and if they did, they wouldn't have it set properly. Most flat panels that get sold in the mass market are not even close to 1080, closer to some form of 720, which is a nice resolution for a 40" screen or so.

But, you have to ensure that your player and cable/sat/ OTA are set properly. In my case, I have visited several friends and relatives homes and I find, without exception, the cable company has it wrong. In many cases, you have DVD players that have terrific output capabilities (HDMI even) and these are not being used- just the tried and true yellow, red and white cables.

And the cable companies often set the boxes to output 480i- I kid you not. And then the display has stretch modes enabled, even in some cases for HD content. My relatives were watching 480i and thinking it was HD for 6 months. They asked me what the big deal was. And now that I have it properly setup? They often wonder what the big deal is because many shows are upsampled. Though when I show them HD sports they do see it. But frankly, on films, while WE HERE do see it, I think many people do not.

I think this is an important point- since so much content we watch is based off film. Films in HD often do not look as sharp as we would expect because they are shot intentionally soft. While those of us that are sensitive to the abilities of HD will see much greater color depth, I think most people will look at it and wonder what the big deal is. I think this is a very critical point.

Again, ask why any consumer technology has succeeded and the reason is always "convenience". iPod? Check. CD? Check. DVD? Check.

Putting on my joe consumer hat for a moment, lets look at these next gen disc formats:
* gotta buy a new player?!
* What? There are 2 new formats? How many freaking formats do I have to keep up with? Now theres Nintendo, Sony, XBox, that mac thing my daughter keeps annoying me about..... GRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!
* cant play it in the minivan to quiet the kids? Cant put it on my iPod either? No portable players out for me? GRRRRRRRRR
* gotta buy the same movies AGAIN?! And maybe AGAIN after that (other format wins)!
* will the picture really look that much better? HD over cable really doesnt look THAT much better to get me to spend my money.

Id love for these new formats to succeed, but I do not think they will. DVD offered noticeably better image (VHS was junk) and no rewinding, easy to transport, etc. In short all the reasons CD put the LP in history's dust bin, those are the reasons for DVDs win. But just like how SACD and DVD-A could not beat the CD, neither can these new formats usurp DVD. Sad to say.

Its time to face reality, come and meet the King and Queen of the formats, the CD and DVD.

Disagree with the above? Then I shall point you to this, which I happened upon in the January 2007 edition of the Absolute Sound where they interview Mr. Bob Stuart on their Back Page:

I have said it before, and I will say it again. I think the future will be some form of download service that is high res, and is distributable and portable. Distributable and portable are convenience factors which can sell a new format. Technical superiority has never won out because, its close to the bottom of the reasons for consumers to adopt a new format.

best regards,
Jerry

All analysts reports that I've seen thus far suggest that HD take up is healthy, though the hardware issues have impacted that for sure. *WE* can speculate all we like but the markets will decide the outcome. So where are the reports that give real details that the HD formats are failing or have failed already?

Mark

Ahh, but isn't the point here simply that we are discussing opinion?

I would submit to you that the people with the best data on this will not probably share it with us openly, but over the next year we can see what they conclude based upon whether or not the major catalog titles show up as HD. If they do, then you are right and the formats are alive and well. If they do not, then the formats are DOA.

I'd love to be wrong, but my experience leads me to my opinion that these formats are nothing more than the video versions of SACD and DVD-A. Btw, I have bought a few more DVD-As lately because it sounds so good and I enjoy it. But I do not kid myself that the format is basically dead- at least in the mass market.

Btw- when we did our holiday shopping and I asked the store clerks at best buy and places like this about Bluray or HDDVD they looked at me like I was on drugs until I said they were the new HD disc formats and I got the "oh, yeah" response... what's the critical element in the market excited about? Nintendo Wii. JMHO.

best regards,
Jerry

Hi Mark

I don't think there are likely to be any reports of the demise of these formats for some time. Why? Because the only people who are paying any attention to them are the groups with a vested interest in seeing them succeed. No one will sound the death knell (still a bit preamture anyway) whilst there's still the glimmer of a hope of a commercial return.

I think both disc based HD formats are doomed, but there will be an HD future...there's enough momentum in the broadcast market, and ever increasing broadband capability for future downloads to see it happen.

Cheers

George

In one way or another it will survive. The roll-outs have just started here in the UK so the companies must still be convinced they can make a success of things otherwise why not simply abandon the new markets (and the costs involved) and concentrate on the existing ones until a profit is made and then fold up the whole venture?

What's most interesting to me is that we've been having this exact same conversation for the past six months... and HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are still here, new generation players are coming out and software is still arriving on a regular basis. Until we get reports to contrary, HD is alive and kicking as far as I'm concerned.

I'm off to watch some HD :p

Mark

I agree with George.

Mark,
Go back in time to SACD and DVD-A- I think it was the same thing: fledgling new formats, new players coming out, even great legacy titles like DSOTM- is there a HD title on that level out yet? Do you remember the rave reviews of the Sony 2 channel SACD player, even for playing back CDs? Sounds an awful lot like the rave reviews on the HD DVD players playback of regular DVDs...

As to the companies rolling out a few players and some titles, well isnt that the same thing as with SACD and DVD-A? And while the companies are still making players that can play these formats, we still regard these formats as marginal at best. I am sure there is a lot of internal debate within these companies on whether to even participate in these new formats. If I were in charge of one of these CE companies, Id hedge my bets by putting out a player or two, but I would not be putting this new format into everything and I would also, if I owned a movie catalog, not put out the "Crown Jewels" in that catalog, but rather some of the medium demand catalog titles as well as some new releases. So far this is what has happened, and its also what happened when DVD was new. Those titles that we all care about so much, as a rule, did not come out until the format was showing it had legs. Its still too early for the people who make the decisions to rule these formats a success or a failure, but I suspect they have a good idea of where the formats are going. As you know my opinion is it does not look good.

HD will survive, of course. But will a HD disc based format survive? I think no. The time has come and past for that and now the mass market is warming up to the concept of downloading. I suspect history will look back at these disc based formats as another example of the "generals fighting the last war" and the contribution from that war will be technical specs like VC-1 and H.264 and hopefully MLP.

Btw- its a one page in The Absolute Sound, but its enjoyable reading so I suggest everyone pick up a copy.

best regards,
Jerry

I never accepted the DVD-A/SACD analogy. *Very* few people had systems or ears which could even resolve the supposed benefits of high-res audio, or even redbook for that matter! HD video is a completely diffent prospect and the differences are easy to see.

Mark

Completely disagree with Bob Stuart on HDDVD/Bluray. I think the tendency to compare to DVDA/SACD is natural, but probably not accurate. While most mass market consumers could not hear the audio improvements from DVDA/SACD, anyone with an HDTV bigger than 40" can EASILY tell the difference between HDDVD/Bluray and regular DVD. Although I do not know the number, I am quite sure there is enough of an installed base of big screen HDTVs to support both HDDVD and Bluray. Approx. 2 million early adopters were enought to sustain laserdisc for over a decade.

Would it be better if there was only one HD format? Of course, but we are where we are and I, for one, am very bullish on the sucesful future of HD on disc.

Simon

Laser Disc was in its time an exciting new format, but it never had the market penetration of DVD. Video had the market!

It was cheap enough to get software and you could record on it.

If DVD had not arrived, would laser disc be dead now? Probably as LP's are today.

But DVD did arrive, one format, well marketed exciting, small, no rewind, demonstratably phenominal picture improvment, New sound formats to a level beyond what Joe sixpack could ever want.
This DVD thing was a 'No Brainer' in the long term.
Everybody won; the consumer for all the above reasons, the film companies, they got to sell all there films again.
Shops and rental outlets had a shot in the arm confidant of the new format, video soon began to fade. DVD took less space on the shelves much more profitable from a business point of view.

So here we are, the Dawn of HD Disc.I hope it survives but it has none of what DVD had on its side.
No real advantage to the average user, sure the enthusiasts love it.
Two formats to confuse the Public, easy to do and never a good idea.
Shops dont want three formats wasting shelf space, not to mention the financial risk of one format dying. Who wants old dead stock.

No real consumer appetite anyway. DVD is good.

Video Scalers have a better chance of success if marketed well at the right price as joe sixpack doesn't want to buy all those films again.

Film companies wont like it so they wont promote it.

I could go on, but its all been said before. Wii will have to wait and see. I could be wrong.

Cheers, Chris

Mark and Simon,
That people do or do not have systems capable of revealing the details of the high res formats in either video or audio is exactly the problem with thinking these formats have any chance.

You also have to ask, does the mass market care about technical superiority? I think the answer has come back as a resounding: "NO! We want easy and inexpensive."

The whole point here is that the mass market is not motivated by technical superiority. It is motivated by convenience and cost. Name one thing HDDVD or BRD does better than DVD from an ease of use stand point? The average consumer probably sees these new formats as the greedy movie companies trying to sell yet another format to him or her that they have to spend more money purchasing yet again the same movies and also how in the world will they hook up the expected mess of cables (they probably do not know of HDMI and probably wont believe the sales person if the sales person knows of it).

The mass market has hit probably its sweet spot in terms of quality with DVD. Just like with CD.

Just like with CD the consumer is really not requesting a higher res format.

Therefore you see things like DVD, XBoxs and PS3s and HD cable boxes hooked up- even by the cable company's own technicians, using composite video.

Remember a selling point of DVD-A at least was multichannel. But Multichannel fails several convenience tests.

1- its not portable, whereas 2 small earbuds for stereo playback are very portable.

2- its not family (OK lets admit it: wife) friendly. you need lots of speakers as in #1 and speakers are generally considered ugly.

As a matter of fact, you have companies like Meridian throwing considerable resources at in wall speakers and at a different level, like Yamaha releasing surround sound from 1 speaker solutions. Why- because having lets say 75% of the benefit of multiple speakers with the aesthetic benefit of a single box that mounts in the wall or under the flat panel is something the market WILL pay for.

I think the analogy to SACD and DVD-A is a very good one.

1. in both cases (next gen audio/ next gen video) the consumer electronics companies introduce new formats not out of some great consumer demand, but because they want to protect their revenue streams from piracy and also from the simple product life cycle of an aging product.

2. in both cases the replacement products are roughly the same physical size and shape.

3. in both cases the replacement product functions fairly similarly (though there are some differences the mass market will consider them not enough)

4. in both cases the replacement product is less portable

5. in both cases the replacement product requires the consumer to buy a new player which is incompatible with another next gen format that purports to do the same thing.

6. in both cases the mass market has been warming up to downloading content, legal or otherwise.

7. In both cases, we, the early adopter group, which should be 95%+ in favor of supporting such formats instead are more like 50-60% in favor. If you can't win the overwhelming majority of early adopters, I think the format will have problems. Guess what- we don't like format wars either!

I see them as much more similar than dissimilar.

best regards,
Jerry