Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems DSP6000's can't handle high volume? 85-90

DJones,

Calibration is not required to use or diagnose the speakers. BUT... Calibration is a great tool to help you REMOTELY diagnose the problem without being there. It gets us all on the same page. If you are not using the G91a then you are probably at 0 offset. I'm sure after the upgrade the speakers were factory reset. Given that, they should play at 85 all day long. BUT that depends on the source (the actually music you are playing and CD vs DVD-A is DIFFERENT). Blueman group CD at 85 might get the amps hot after a while. But some light classical will play at 95 all day long and the amps would probably be cool.

We don't have enough info to diagnose the problem.

We don't know if your power is ok (which is a good call just raised).
We don't know if the environment is too hot or close.
We don't know (yet) if the speaker is good.
We don't know what you expect from them.

The D6000 is not a PA or Cerwin Vega, but it's a pretty potent great speaker. I think is still holds SteroPhiles record as the longest running class AAA speaker.

I think waiting for feedback from Atlanta to get a baseline on if the speaker is ok is your best first step.

Hi, DJones,

Hope my previous post did not offend. I tried to be clear that I believe you personally do fully understand the dealer's financial constraints.

Next, let my share some of the lessons learned in my 10 years, and dozens of installed pairs, of all Meridian speakers, up to and including DSP8000s (which will also clamp under the following conditions). Some of this has been covered or at least implied, in other posts, but bears repeating:

1. When purchasing a full 24/96 upgrade from my old store, you would certainly have gotten installation and testing at no additional charge. That you didn't is a troubling indicator of dealer service, though it appears they've tried to make up for it. Equally troubling is the recommendation of DSP7ks or the 24/96 upgrade, neither of which should be noticeably pertinent to your problem, in my experience.

22. Calibration (using the G91 -- not available with just the 518 and 500) is not an issue for overheating, as you cannot calibrate digital speakers higher than unity gain, only lower, using any Meridian surround processor. And in a large room, sitting far from the speakers, it is not appropriate to expect or try to get a calibration level of 75dB (this is a common misconception stemming from poor choice of wording in the Meridian processor manual). My own 6000s are in a 23'x28'x11'high room, I sit 12.5 feet from the speakers, and get a calibration level of no more, and often less, than 73 dB at unity gain. I definitely do not use the gain adjustment available in my Z-Systems RDP1 to get higher levels in calibration, but am more than satisfied with the volume levels available.

When using the 518, howver, it is possible to set gain above unity. Don't -- it will definitely cause clipping in the digital domain with high-level software, which can blow tweeters and cause overheating. Make sure you do not apply digital domain gain in the 518 with either the 500 or the G91. Don't use 518 gain to get 75dB calibration levels with the G91, either, for the reason mentioned above.

Please identify what software you are playing. Constant play at 85 (or even 77) of heavy metal or just any loud rock with few or no quiet passages to give the amps a rest will cause overheating,and resultant clamping to protect the speaker (though it shouldn't blow tweeters!). The latest speaker software has added additiional thermal clamping to the midrange driver to help with this problem, and should have been included with the 24/96 upgrade. Latest software is v5.05.

Any of the above can cause permanent damage to the midrange or bass drivers of your speakers. And once that occurs, the only solution is to replace the drivers themselves. Sending the back panel as opposed to the whole speaker to Atlanta won't help.

Finally, do take seriously recommendations to have your hearing tested by a professional audiologist. Most of the so-called tests available on the Web, on CD discs, etc. are virtually useless (e.g., no professional audiologist uses or will guarantee test results above c.9kHz or so). Very high frequency hearing (above 9kHz) is not an issue for your loudness concerns, which are largely a matter of midrange hearing; but any exposure of more than 15 minutes continuous to SPLs above 100 has been established to cause permanent midrange hearing damage in some instances. If this has occurred, the continuing to try to get the levels you love may just result in more hearing loss.

Sorry if this seems redundant to other posts (remember I'm a newbie!) but I thought it might help to gather it together for your consideration.

Hi Brittenadict

Very sound advice and a good summary of the salient points. I'm actually surprised that we have reached 88 posts in this thread and are still largely in the dark about what's going on...

Cheers

George

UspleasebeatGhanaOnThursday.

I guess you'll be needing a new name now then

Maybe:- We're coming home, we're coming home...

Sorry...couldn't resist.

Hello Everyone.

Some answers to your questions as follow:

I was originally using a regular extension cord on the D6000s, then switched to a Monster HTS3500 (Meridian dealer said they suggest Furman), so I bought a Furman IT Reference 15 (the Dealer told me at my home visit when they removed the upgrades, that I should have bought a 20amp model, but that he did not think the conditioner was causing the problem). So, I ran the speakers on a regular extension cord, a Monster, and Furman---all with the same overheating and clamping ocurring after 25 minutes at 77-85 volume. The only thing I have not tried is plugging directly into the wall or using a 20amp conditioner.

Yes, I (we) did switch the master with the same result.

I am not sure which software I have in the original D6000s purchased through eBay, but I assume I had the latest version on my new complete 96/24 upgrades?

I like listening to new age and rock music. The CD's I have been playing with the overheating and clamping have been---Yanni / Sade' / Sarah Brightman---and I do like the songs with more hard hitting music and vocals---I have not tested them on something light like classical, but I think they would still overheat and clamp after 25-30 minutes playing any kind of music at 77-85.

Currently, Atlanta has one of the speakers (maybe just the boards, and not the whole speaker as the dealer did not seem anxious to do anything after I had him remove the upgrades). I Have asked Atlanta to do a thorough check and do whatever it takes, whatever it costs, to fix it. I will send the other one to them if need be, and the entire speaker if the dealer has not done so already.

If Atlanta cannot find out what the issue is, would it be a good idea to send both speakers to the U.K.? It does seem that the local Meridian folks are content with their "room too open" analysis. But based on the info in this thread, I am convinced there is some hardware issue somewhere.

Too many of you are backing the D6000s at high volume even in open rooms. I am also convinced that if these speakers could not play at 77-85 in an open room without clamping and overheating, that they never would have achieved the acclaim they have.

Djones1915,

All three front speakers are connected through one conditioner and one extension cord? I wouldn't do that. Amplifiers are best to be connected directly to the wall. I do however use PS Audio Ultimate Outlets but these are only baluns with double 8awg wire that have 8 turns around the balun so it doesn't limit current. Be careful with power conditioners and amplifiers. If the bass looses any tightness or punch with the conditioner then it is probably limiting current. I can hear it at moderate volumes. The sound usually looses that toe tapping quality. If I were you, try connecting directly to the wall, each speaker with its own extension cord. Also, how far is your audio setup/room from the electrical box in your home? With three 100watt amps and six 75watt amps (three front D6000), that too can be a problem on any long run 14awg wire. Amplifiers draw a large amount of current during large musical peaks. Even amplifiers with 100,000 microfarad storage capacitors will draw a lot of current during peaks. I have four 20amp breakers with 10awg wiring in my setup and put two amps on each circuit. All my digital front end is on its own circuit as well. I'm also only 10 feet from the electrical box. Very stiff power rail with this setup. Very little sag under dynamic conditions.

Ron

Djones,

Although I agree with Ron long term, it should not have caused the problems you describe nor your choice of music. That's just my opinion though. I've run my entire system TV CRT, Krell amps, 3 DSP's on 1 15amp circuit with no problems. But I have since added 2 dedicated 20 Amp circuits.

That is too bad if the whole Speaker didn't go back for a full check.

Dave,

Re: sending to the UK. I would suggest you call them first and discuss. They will certainly be in touch with Atlanta to know what they are doing. Ask for Dave, Edd or Des. These are the guys that are most well known to many of us here and always produce the support that you need.
They may well defer to Atlanta for the time being, but, you will hopefully get some reassurance that something is being done.

If only the mod could allow this.
And now this message from bitterness. I hope Brazil pounds seven kinds of crap out of Ghana. Their constant, pitiful diving made Italy and Argentina look like the Weeble National Team. It wasn't as if they couldn't play, they just chose not to. That penalty was an embarrassment - it didn't change anything, thanks to Reyna's giveaway and the Czechs forgetting about the other two teams in the group. But it crushed the momentum of the game, as well as being completely laughable on the merit.

Time-wasting is one thing - that's the prerogative of a team that's ahead. Kasey Keller would have taken at least as long as Kingson on his goal kicks. But the amount of times the Ghanaian stretcher was rolled out would have turned Florence Nightingale into a screaming cynic. If Ghana thinks they will get a single one of those calls against Brazil, they are in for a pasting. And I for one will enjoy it. Let Ecuador be the adorable underdogs for this tournament.

Yeah, I know, Cameroon in 1990 was dirty as 2 Live Crew. But they didn't fake injuries, and they were beating on Argentina, and sympathy for the world champions at that time was difficult to come by. Had Ghana cheap-shotted us, they would have been lionized. They may still be, of course, but you'll have to apply their praise via magic sponge.
I don't see England coming out of second round.

George,

Keep in mind he had everything powered through the power conditioner. The power conditioner has a 15 amp transformer (most likely higher output impedance than the transformer on the street pole). He also never tied directly into the wall which should help quite a bit. One circuit 14awg in the wall should be OK as long as he doesn't have a really long ranch home with the system at the other end from the electrical breaker box. My house is 56 feet long and the wiring in the walls adds to that length. The far end of the house would cause excessive voltage sags under dynamic conditions from several amplifiers. Sustained loud music (25 minutes is a pretty long time) with constant voltage sags would cause the amplifiers to over heat. I say he should try AC power directly into the wall and crank it up. Just to prove this is or isn't the cause.

Ron

Ron,

Have you ever used a device like this ?

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=38343&criteria=power%20meter&doy=23m6

I'm tempted to pick one up to see what the DSP's actually take when pushing hard (rather than just from the spec sheet). It might be interesting to know how the power draw from 3 big DSP's compares to either a power unit or the rating of the house circuits.

This thread must be ringing alarm bells and causing consternation in Atlanta as well as at M Central.
Not only by how this problem has been handled by the M dealer but by the fact that it also warranted the attention of 1 Area Salesman and 2 Meridian 'Tech's' on site. (Or did they just happen to be in the area).

The contributors to this thread are to be congratulated.
The quality of the advice, given here, has been of the highest order.

George:
Please don't close this thread. I think we all look forward to the final outcome of this one.


Holtz'.