Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems Bob Stuart Slams HD-DVD & Bluray

On browsing the latest copy of HomeCinemaChoice in the newsagents today I read an article featuring the views of Bob Stuart - and the head of Arcam - on HD-DVD and Bluray.

Their comments were less than flattering on the format war, with the primary message from Bob Stuart that everyone should stick with DVD and forget about the new formats.

Unrelated; eleswhere in the magazine there was a news story about a new line of LCD panels. The typographical error advised readers to visit the Meridian website for further information.

I also read this article today in Tesco. The way I read this is that universal HD players are going to be difficult due to licensing and/or the different technologies involved.

Blu-Ray has an advantage as Joe Sixpack* is going to be buying playstations in droves. HD-DVD has an advantage as it is out of the blocks quicker and can leverage the "DVD" name. But my gut feeling is that the industry has fxxxed itself again. Feeling pretty happy with my Crystalio scaler at the moment.

What was also interesting was that Bob said he made sure that MLP was included as mandatory in both formats so that, which he expected and assumed would happen, the two formats would convergence into a single format (like original DVD).

On a positive note (if there can be such a thing in this debacle), if both HD DVD formats fail, perhaps there's more life in DVD-A yet?

*(C) 2006 chrislayeruk

I partly agree with the two distinguished British gentlemen. DVD is good enough - as long as you are not using anything larger than a 32 inch HDMI LCD. With larger plasmas and better than average projectors/screens there is clearly a need for more resolution.

But look at the hi-rez sound situation. Total confusion. No less than 8 (eight!) formats to be found in the better than/different to CD-section in the shops: SACD, DVD-Audio, LPCM 24/96 and 48/96 (sometimes called "enhanced audio resolution), DTS 2 ch 24/96. Not speaking of compressed DD and DTS multichannel - AND uncopressed MLP multichannel! (Did I forget something?)

You never know which player that supports what, which makes it highly risky to buy into the high end side of the hi-rez market. People who like to try some of the formats out is likely to end up with inferior multiplayers that do neither of the new formats any justice. In some cases, the sound is worse than standard CD.

A similar situation could emerge with hi-rez video. With possibly the same result: People stick to DVD, as they still buy CD. And of course they download their music from the internet, legally or illegally. With consistantly worse sound than CD. Did anybody mention the word progression?

I still think that could grossly backfire on Sony.

I'm just not sure the majority of gamers want anything more than a games console at the end of the day. They might be able to woo gamers with Bluray movie compatibility in the short term as they did with UMD movies on the PSP, but look how that's ended up. What's more, it's one thing to use a PS3 as a Trojan horse to get PS3s into as many homes as possible, it's another thing for the majority of those owners to actually then go out and buy movies for it when they're already faced with the burden of $60 price tags on the games alone. Given the majority will primarily – and rightly so – want a games console for its games, they'll likely put their hard earned pennies to buying games above and beyond anything else. Then comes the question of hoe many PS3 owners will even be hooking them up to an HDTV. It was alright for DVD in the PS2. Although its playback was abysmal, you could hook it up to any television.

It's still an unpredictable battle. I still think it unwise to underestimate Microsoft's power (along with Intel and HP) in backing HD DVD for PC use over Bluray. A $499 player really is very good too. With HD DVD launching this coming Tuesday in the states there are a good few on the AVS forum who have found stores selling the machines and launch titles this weekend already. It's exciting. Whether either format appeals to the average Joe remains to be seen. Logic might dictate that it won't, but it doesn't seem to be stopping either group marketing their formats as a mainstream product. In addition, I agree and would say the "DVD' brand name in HD DVD is potentially a huge, huge asset to the format in making it clear to consumers precisely what it is.

One other issue with the PS3 I think is going to be product availability. They're not just launching in Japan and America/Canada this November, but Europe and Australia/New Zealand too. Sony said they aim to launch with 1m units, followed by 1m more each month through to around March or April 07. For a global launch of something boasting the "playstation' brand that's just not going to stretch far at all. They could probably sell 1 million to Japan alone within its first three days of release, so come November people are likely to be crawling over their own grandmother to get one (and subsequently fling it on eBay for 10x the price). If we assume stock shortages will not simmer down until Spring of 07 at the earliest, HD DVD with it's $499 player – and perhaps a cheaper one by Christmas? – could have made enough headway to prolong its position in this whole feud. If we also assume the Xbox 360 will be readily available by this Christmas we must also wonder how Microsoft's planned external HD DVD drive add on might fare [although I am still curious how in the hell it will work as the 360 has no digital video output which would cause a problem if any titles flagged with ICT were played in a system that only had analogue video out].

Nothing's really set in stone. It's quite well known now that Bob Iger of Disney said in his recent speech to stock holders that although they full back Bluray they will “probably” release on HD DVD as well. I still feel Disney is by far Bluray's greatest asset, since as far as I am concerned Bluray offers no technological advance over HD DVD that should be of any concern to the consumer for pre-recorded media (not even the potential for an extra 20gb storage). I'd like to think HD DVD can succeed. I consider it more deserving of success – and not so much in a "routing for the little guy' type way. As a film fan though, one can only go where the content ends up, and I agree the possible scenario is both formats fail at which point we can only hang our heads further in shame at the inability of Hollywood and manufacturers to come together and produce a single format.

The DVD-A vs SACD analogy I think can only stretch so far in comparing the Hi Def movie formats however. People are at least more aware of hi-definition and its benefits than they ever were over lossless multi-channel audio and so forth. The fact HDTV is already part of public consciousness will probably ensure at least one format does win instead of the two of them fading into obscurity.


But it's not mandatory in both. Bluray in fact has no mandate for any next gen audio formats to the best of my knowledge. No Dolby Digital Plus, not DTS HD, or Dolby True HD (MLP) whereas HD DVD boasts mandatory next gen audio format support for Dolby Digital Plus and a minimum of 2-channel Dolby True HD and the first players – despite them not having too – have 5.1 DTS HD support as well. I'd imagine 2nd gen players will expand their True HD decoding support to multi-channel. Warner's Phantom of the Opera which is out on Tuesday already boasts a 5.1 True HD track which I'd imagine is rather lovely. Sadly everything else, even the Universal titles, just offer DD+.

The great relative success of SACD for the music companies is that nobody can rip the HiRes sound tracks.
I think the best strategy for the Film and Music Majors is the following:
- Let the HD-DVD be for the computers industry HD storage of choice to replace the DVD
- Leave the Bluray for recorded business.

This way the content is naturally protected nobody can rip something that cannot be played on the PC. Simple and effective.

I'm no one to advise them but clearly that's the only safe route against piracy, everybody will have exclusive rights for a specific industry. Should make everyone happy if not they deserve to fail. I will keep my G91, and wait for they downfall.

That's true, but I draw a different conclusion. Since ALL PS3 games are delivered on a Blu-Ray format disc- The likelyhood of the PS3 not being a major games success insures Blu-Ray as a format for a long time. They may not being playing movies as you said, but as a disc delivery format Blu-Ray seems positioned well, if only for games; the movies will come along for the ride, even if HD-DVD is still around... especially since all but one studio will be releasing in BR regardless of HD-DVD.

I agree that this war is hurting virtually everyone; but I think BR may be in a better strategic position in the end...

ken

No doubt Sony will massage their Bluray stats from the PS3 the same way they did with Sacd. Exactly how many Sacd DISC owners actually possess Sacd PLAYERS ????

I have no interest in either of these ill-thought-out formats just yet.Possibly when true HiDef is more generally available the formats may merge or one may die and it may become more attractive/cost-effective at that point.

~M~

I certainly agree that if anything, ensuring all PS3 games come on BD-Roms will mean discs will always be in mass production. Above anything else I believe that's actually the real reason (above the claims of superior copy protection) Sony have insisted all games will be BD based in the first place. It's a smart move on their part. It might not be financially sound for third party developers, but it'll always ensure Bluray production continues in some capacity should it fail as a pre-recorded movie format.

If the movies are not selling though, studio support will dwindle just as it has for UMD titles on the PSP.

Studios and manufacturers will go where there's money to be made of course. I think both formats right now boast different strategic advantages. Nobody is bound to any one format exclusively (save the one unnamed studio Sony allegedly paid outright to support Bluray). Should the HD DVD players begin selling well over the coming months, those supplying hardware and content will migrate to supporting both. Really, if anything, this is going to turn into a battle of who has the best marketing.

Sony and affiliated studios are exclusively Blu-ray. Fox is the other studio that is exclusively Blu-ray, due to their inclusion of BD+ copy protection.

Cheers,

Well I was writing in the sense that the Sony bind goes without saying, John - and I'd presume that extends to MGM even though Sony only own a 20% share in the company. Whether those with the greater share in MGM wanted to release on HD DVD as well if they saw potential to make money I'd be interested whether Sony could actually do anything to stop them.

I can certainly share the belief that Sony and Fox would be the last to cling on with dear life to the format if it begins to dwindle however, but Fox still isn't bound by any agreement exclusively to Bluray. It's there by firm choice over the SPDC/BD+ issue... unless of course they are that alleged studio Sony is rumoured to have paid in order to gain their full support.

In similar ways to Fox pledging their support for a specific reason, Disney see its extra potential for offering a further 20gb of storage over its competitor as an advantage and therefore back it by choice too, but it remains mere choice and choice alone. They've left themselves free to migrate so like I say, there are not many - beyond the obvious - eternally bound to the format if they wanted to spread their content elsewhere sooner rather than later.

He's just saying that to stall Meridian owners from badgering him about a timeline for upgrades to support HD-DVD/Blu-Ray

Mark

The point (I think) is this...

Until the format war settles out, I don't think any of the smaller higher end companies are going to test the waters.

I personally am looking forward to lossless audio for movie soundtracks

I also don't doubt for a minute that M is working on an HDMI audio solution and HDMI v1.3 is almost certainly working towards. Before any of you reads something into that... No inside scoop, but M has more than a few really smart people working there

Cheers,


Cheers,