Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems Power cables into DSP's...not the snakeoil or fact question

George, why do you stick to this ? I'm not fooling myself that anything sounds better or worse. Just different. The changes are not night and day I might add. More like the HS on/off magnitude.

As I said at the very top, if you accept that I (and Mrs L) are hearing a difference then I'd like to know why.

I'm not interested in you telling me that I didn't or couldn't possibly have heard or memorised anything. That's the bit that's been done to death in many other threads.

I am playing one track many times and focussing on particular aspects of that track (come on ...you've demo'd hifi and know what you are listening to when you judge changes)

I am changing cords as quickly as I can and setting the whole system back to where it was and repeating the listen.

Sure my neighbours maybe doing something different in their house but if I play 2 mins of the track, change cord, play again, change cord, play again, change cord........get the drift? Same temp, humidity, same food in my belly etc etc.

I don't need a machine to hear the difference. The hifi mags have struggled for years with trying to measure this. As you say, there is way too much going on and the brain is far better than any mic/MRC we have available to us.

Besides...what machine would you suggest for measuring the warmth of a voice, or the 3-D imaging, texture of a bass note ?? If you suggest these are not audible to the human ear then we should debate that seperately.

The kind of thing I am wanting to know is

...does a thicker purer cable allow current draw quicker....do capacitors recharge quicker.....do amps work better

The shielding debate would affect noise floor etc at most IMO. Why does a cable seem to reduce bass output. Please don't make me put the spl on this to prove the point. I'd like to think you could take my word for it.

I know it's subjective for all the reasons you mention, but, spending even an hour doing this test is enough to know something is changing. I agree that moving speakers etc change things very significantly etc. But I'm not doing anything beyond changing the cords.

Remember I mostly come from the snakeoil camp and don't particularly want to spend money on cables unless there is good reason.

If I accept (which I don't) that it's only the shielding of the cord...please explain how that will affect the sound at least.

I have no opinion on this. To this end, when I home test some high end speaker cables this week, I will also test one high end power cord too (same manufacturer). I have been told the best place to test this is at the front end of the system.

I figure I won't change many peoples mind by posting, other than perhaps that we should all have a listen.

David,
a related question would be, therefore, why should it be better at the front of your kit rather than further down the chain.
What reason(s) would there be for this ?

Hand on heart Nick, I have absolutely no clue.

Twas what I was told by the distributor. I don't think he is on his own in this opinion however.

My personal preference would be to use it on my Krell since it uses more current than everything else put together and I will swap the cord between components to see.

Nick,

I'm not saying you don't hear difference. You asked what could cause this?

Even *IF* the high end cable did magicically make electrons move faster, how can the 1 mile of cable before it, keep up? Your supply is only as good as the weakest link. If you went from an 18 guage power cord (not uncommon) to a 12 guage you probably could hear a difference in bass. I assume this is not the case.

I stated shielding because that's about all that can be different. It is the only scientific explaination I can think of. The shielding on AC cables is not to protect the AC line by the way, it's to protect other nearby cables and devices that might be sensitive to the Electro Magnetic Field the AC cable gives off (which is very real). It also won't effect just noise floor.

Thanks for explaining how you tested. You didn't explain it earlier. It sounds like it wasn't double blind. Don't get all defensive about that. The only way to test anything this subtle is to do it double blind. That tells me the credibility of the test, not you, just the level of tests you did. It's a lot of work to do it double blind.

As far as SPL meter. You're damn right I'd love for you to test with an SPL meter or better. I wouldn't trust my own ears, why would I trust anyone elses. Although I think MRC would do a much better job showing differences. Only in the "softer bass" you mention.

Nick,

Only a thought - and no "science" to back it up... but most "mains" cables have multi-core cables rated at what? Lets say 15 amps (mostly being fused at 13a) - and in the UK at least, "domestic" ring cabling to the distribution plugs is rated at 30 amps - with each wire being SINGLE cored... Now I seem to remember all sorts of guff in the hi-fi press when talking about analogue interconnects being affected by all sorts of "surface skin" / capacitance effects.

As I say - no theoretical or physics-derived justifications, but I just wonder whether this may contribute in some way? And in this respect, I consider myself open-minded on this one, having not done A-B comparisons. But the fellow-hiker I bought my 5500's from was quite sure that his non-OEM power leads did make a sonic difference.

Just my penny-worth... maybe not even worth that much !!

George.

Nick,

Here is some carefully conducted tests on power cords.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

The only thing I'd like to add is that Meridian, despite spending who knows what on product development (and charging us for it), does not see fit to use "special" mains cables in any of their products.

George,

Thanks for the link. It's an interesting read.

You're correct my tests weren't ABX'd. I tried to approach the tests in a non-hyped up manner. I didn't erect any screens in my lounge or anything of the sort. The cables, however, are not visible from the central seats so I could say that Mrs L was listening blind, and, I reference her feedback as much as mine.

One comment in the ABX article resonates somewhat with me:-
I can't help feel that we are debating whether we can actually hear the changes still. That's a valid debate of course and the article goes on to note:-
The human mind is a complex thing. I'm not sure how fair it is to say that cool, cost/status, fear, faith, relaxation are the real reasons behind why we do these things. The only thing in this group of reasons I get close to here is fear....Fear of not doing everything you can to get ‘the best sound.'. I think calling this fear is a bit OTT and is a touch belittling
given it is authored by folks that knew they were concluding that power cords/ABX = zero. I'm not sure if the same comments would have been made had the results been different....anyway that's a digression.

Yes, I do want to make sure I am getting the best out of my investment in these DSP's, and testing some cords is a reasonable thing to do....not becasue I'm scared I add!!
I would actually prefer to find the M stock cable the winner..and it may well be the winner. However, that doesn't explain why we hear changes in cables.

I wonder, when we make comments about whether a squeezebox is better than G08, an earthspike lowers the noise floor, whether 5200's are better than 5000's, etc etc, these don't get the snakeoil treatment yet are in almost everyway just as subjective.

As soon as the kids finish with Teletubbies, I will actually put the spl on the test track and if times permits do an MRC on each.

Can the shielding on 3 types of cable be so different that they affect sound ?? I accept the weakness of my comment above about speed of electrons etc and that it is nothing magical.
However, the performance of my ring main doing whatever it does is at least a constant in the test.

I am curious to know how the varying resitivities of the cables might affect (if at all) what goes on, and given their straight or woven nature, what this is doing (if anything) to the "small additional signals" that Sedluk mentioned above. If shielding is to prevent the cable affecting other units, what is the effect on the power supply inside the cable ?

Incidentally, the PS Audio folks claim that non-perfect sign waves are the way to go with their Multi-wave feature. If true, then it would suggest that profile of power feed is likely to have an effect.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. Let's see where we can get to with this. I'll post back later with some spl figures.

cheers

Has anyone actually canvassed M's opinion on the matter?

Perhaps all manufacturers don't want to get involved since it is a moot point and don't want to have to hike the price of their kit on something they don't make themselves in order to supply with. I can't think of a manufacturer who ships new kit with branded power cables.

David/Joel

I agree with both your comments but we've said all that many times before.

If you accept that cables cause a change (notwithstanding George's input on the state of mind in such comparisons and our ability to repeatably pick the change everytime) then what is it about the cable that does it? Put the other way around, what is it about the inner workings of a DSP speaker that change or are influenced by cables or the way in which the power coming through?

All devices in a system generate noise which is propogated back into the mains and onto the rest of the kit connected to this mains loop. This noise gets into the rest of the system and can cause jitter and other nasties with cumulative degenerative affect. Digital devices seem particularly susceptible.

One of the things a good power cable will do is stop the noise from a device getting back into the mains, effectively isolating it from the rest of the kit in the system, as well as filtering any noise already present in the mains.

So it's not just about cleaning the incoming mains but ensuring system noise is not propogated.

When I test cables I always try to set up two systems in parallel so that I can immediately switch between them to hear differences, rather than relying on memory. It's not always possible of course, but is very worthwhile when available.

I use third-party power cables throughout my system.

Cheers,

Mark