Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems IR to RS232 converter? Direct soundfield access...

okay, i'm officially fed up with not having direct access to the soundfield modes. it's very annoying.

my understanding is that they are directly accessible only through RS232. this is wacky IMO, but so be it. there's no dearth of IR codes in the world, even if it requires an additional receiver in the unit.

so does any enterprising soul out there sell a tiny little unit with an IR receiver on one end and an RS232 connector on the other and a list of IR codes that correspond to the RS232 codes you can't get to with direct Meridian IR? this would seem to be a no-brainer.

or do i have to do something really expensive and stupid to get to these?

any advice appreciated.

sab

This was sort of discussed in the early part of thread:
http://www.softronix.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000262.html .

It's not as much of a "no-brainer" as you would think. Sending RS-232 is pretty trivial, and costs of UARTs are dirt cheap. The device that you're envisioning, in terms of parts, would be quite inexpensive. The problem is: There's no "standard" RS-232 protocol (no terms of data payload).

Meridian uses their protocol. The Sony G90 projector uses another (far more complex) protocol. The Snell & Wilcox interpolator uses yet another protocol (complex as well, but not quite as bad as the Sony G90). Lutron Grafic Eye uses another protocol. Lutron Radio-RA (whole house lighting) uses another protocol, and that's from the same company that does the Lutron Grafic Eye! Of the 7 devices I have on my system "talking" RS-232, all of them use different data protocols.

So, while receiving I/R and retransmitting (one-way) RS-232 is pretty trivial, the tough part is: How do you control WHAT is sent? What if such a device is built, and then Meridian changes or extends the protocol for new features? That's the rub, I think, and what makes such a device much more involved than a "no-brainer".

In the end, any device (I know of) that talks RS-232 can drive the Meridian. The Meridian has a very simple (yet extremely flexible) protocol that offers thousands of combinations of settings (nearly anything that you set via the PC setup program can be overridden via RS-232).

If you have a computer, it would take a pretty trivial PERL program (or a program in any language, really) to send bits out of an RS-232 port at a known baud rate. But then you'd need some way to control it (wireless keyboard or something).

A whole host of automation hardware, of course, has RS-232 devices (Panja AMX, Panja NetLinx, Crestron, etc), and it's relatively trivial to drive the Meridian via those. But these probably qualify as "really expensive and stupid", in your terminology.

It seems like what you're asking is: "I don't want to pay the cost for a whole automation system, but I want a subset of automation system capabilities". I know of no solutions for such a need, although, as I said, the hardware is cheap (it's the user interface - or the installer interface - of determining what is sent via RS-232 that's more involved).


I think that's a little short sighted. To be honest, I don't think there's any reasonable way for Meridian to offer such capability AND keep everyone happy. Why?

• More development costs are involved than you think. For example, a new remote - no jokes please on the MSR - would need to be built that controlled both these new I/R features and all existing features.
• While "there's no dearth of IR codes", there is a limited number of I/R codes that a single device from a single manufacturer can control. Sure, I suppose you can work around this by multiple I/R receivers, but then how can Meridian make everyone happy? Think of all the settings available in the Meridian setup utility. Then think of trying to make all that available via I/R. It's far more daunting than you think. And that would take far more than one (or probably two) extra I/R controllers.
• If Meridian did do the above, trying to make a subset of functions available, I guarentee that a number of people would be unhappy. For example, I'm quite thrilled that you can control, via RS-232, if Dolby Normalization is set or not. Why? Well, a number of disc manufacturers screw this up (which subsequently confuses the Meridian). But since I can override via RS-232, I can work around these manufacturing issues. I'll betcha there aren't too many others concerned of this.

RS-232 is the only way I can think of that has infinite expansion flexibility. They can add not ten, or twenty, or fifty possible commands (like with I/R), but hundreds and hundreds of possible settings to control probably ten thousand (or more) combinations.

And, when they're done with that, they can add a new protocol to control on-screen text display.

And, when they're done with that, they can add a new protocol to allow an intelligent control system to query the state of any of the controlled parameters and make decisions based on them.

And, when they're done with that, they can add a new protocol to control if an anamorphic disc is inserted into the unit - a wishlist item of mine. This is the only thing Meridian has NOT done yet with RS-232; all the above items have already been done (or are nearing completion).

The point is that RS-232 is infinitely expandable, and that's all I know of that is (well, I suppose you could have a USB interface to interface with the Meridian, or you could give the Meridian a TCP/IP address, but this would even make it harder for most folks to control it - RS-232 is fine, and is the least common denominator that everything can control).

I have a number consumer electronics devices (i.e. Yamaha DSP-A1, Tivo, etc) that don't do RS-232. In the end, these devices limit my capabilities tremendously. So I really applaud Meridian's effort to make their devices as rich as they are via RS-232. It gives me, as an owner that understands these things, a rather infinite array of possibilities in terms of controlling the equipment.

many thanks for the detailed response, jeff!

i am certainly not knocking Meridian for the rs232 interface - it's a GREAT tool to have, without any doubt whatsoever.

and i do appreciate that there's probably no one solution that'd make everybody happy.

in a perfect world, i guess i'd like to see Meridian support IR codes for lots of stuff (like direct access of soundfield presets) - but they may not necessarily support those IR codes on the MSR (which we all agree is a really sub-optimal beast anyway).

i have a few devices that do this (the prime example are discreet on/off codes).

seems like a lot of money to spend (crestron, etc.) just to be able to switch from Mode A to Mode B conveniently.

sab

What you're asking for is doable, I guess, but hard. For example, sure, Meridian can give you, say, IR files for the Pronto, but then what about people with other devices that need to LEARN an I/R code (like the Sony programmable remote I used to use)? Meridian, of course, doesn't want to force you to use only one type of remote (especially not theirs), or people here would be really upset! So, if Meridian were to do what you'd ask:

• A new soundfield comes out (say PLII).
• Meridian adds that to RS-232 (done).
• Meridian wants to add that to I/R. Whoops, no I/R controller space left. Hardware change! Or, if there is still enough space in the I/R controller:
• Meridian needs to create a new remote that has that button for the soundfield so that folks with programmable remotes can learn that new code.
• People don't want to buy the new remote (more money), so Meridian needs to make that I/R code available in bunches of formats for bunches of remotes. And lots of programmable remotes still can't work that way (they ONLY learn).

As you can see, it's messy to do this with I/R. I don't work for Meridian, and I'm not privey to their internal development meetings. But I suspect that they don't think of your request very seriously for the above reasons ...


Yup, it is. BUT: If the system is controlling LOTS of stuff, then the cost is spread over lots of different gear. I have my system controlling gear in 5 different rooms, with a total of (roughly) 23 devices (TVs, source devices, projector, interpoaltor, etc). On top of that, it controls lighting, drapes, etc, all in an integrated way. For example, when I hit DVD in the theatre room:

• Drapes close
• Lights dim and then turn off
• House alarm armed if currently unarmed
• Projector turns on, all white mode turns off
• Meridian 861 selected to DVD input
• Meridian 800 turned on if needed
• Snell & Wilcox interpolator set to DVD input (SDI digital video), anamorphic 16x9

Then the remote is page flipped to a page specific for the Meridian 800, where you can control it to your heart's content.

Lots of stuff to do, but my wife (or I) just press "DVD", and all that happens. It's similar in other rooms, too, although the sequence of steps are entirely different.

I, too, felt that automation systems were absurdly expensive (and I still do). But my wife was actually the one to convince me of it. Her comment (I think I mentioned this before): "If you spend tens of thousands of dollars on very expensive gear, why are you so hesitant to spend a few thousand to make it all easy to operate." And, in retrospect, she had a good point ...

[This message has been edited by Jeff Coffler (edited 04-16-2001).]

fine points all, but i think the vast majority of us are at a stage where we all have programmable remotes. it's actually tough these days to buy a serious learning remote that can't be programmed (i think i have a denon rc770 that would qualify, but that was built in the late 80s).

of course Meridian could just OEM prontos. source up the older model at $100 or so a pop each in volume and you can download updates no problemo just like we all do for our processors. i think it's tough to argue that they could expect customers and dealers to do software updates to the units, but not to the remotes. plus, since the MSR is really quite lame, the pronto would be a nice change :-). finally, it's WAY more in line with Meridian's philosophy of upgradability!

geez, the more i talk about it, the more i think they really SHOULD do this!

i haven't ruled out going the full-bore automation route, and your wife is 100% correct.

ANYONE IN THE BOSTON MA AREA WHO'S HAD A GOOD EXPERIENCE WITH CLUEFUL AUTOMATION PEOPLE?

sab

Not me. Maybe someone else will chime in. I used to live in New Hampshire, but that was before the Home Theatre hobby.

If you're bright and comfortable with computer stuff, you may want to consider sourcing the hardware and then programming it yourself; it depends on your skill level. I could provide code to drive the Meridian 861/800 in either AMX or NetLinx form, if you go with a Panja system.

If you choose to source the hardware yourself, talk with Health Nut; he may be able to help. Not sure; he's the one to say.

Finally, I still remember that conversation about buying an automation system. Kind of amusing. Kathi (my wife) felt we should, I felt we shouldn't. I just couldn't make the mental jump to pay several thousand dollars for a f***ing TV remote control (that's the wording I used at the time). But her comment convinced me.

And, in retrospect, it does a lot more than a "remote control". It controls house lighting, it interacts with the home alarm (turning on all the lights if the alarm trips), it controls the HVAC system, etc.

Jeff,

Where did you obtain the RS-232 commands for functions like dialog normalization? I don't see it in the document on the Meridian web site. Also, can you change the Type by RS-232? I am controlling an 861 and an 800 with a Crestron system by RS-232 and would like to add functions not listed in the Meridian document. Incidentally, like you, I am also controlling a SW G2, although I don't dare to use the functions for changing contrast and brightness...they have a nasty tendency to jump by large increments.

See file mmc_232.pdf, which is part of the Meridian installation. It describes a set of APxxyy commands, where xx is the feature to set, and yy is it's parameter. For Dolby Normalization, it's AP29yy, where yy ranges from 00 to 05, depending on what you want.

For whatever reason, the document is not on the WWW site. Not that important, IMHO, since it's far too detailed anyway for a casual looker to be interested.


Hmm, I don't know of a way to change the type. You can change everything about the type (i.e. you can issue a series of commands to essentially reprogram the type, although the settings wouldn't be saved), but you can't change the type itself (as far as I know). Meridian has been really good about adding things via RS-232. If you have a real need for this sort of thing, I'd suggest giving Meridian a jingle and talking about what you're trying to do.

So, if you're controlling an 861 and 800 via RS-232 ... how do you deal with ejecting a DVD without powering up the entire system (or do you)? Sometimes I leave a DVD (or CD) in the 800 and want to pull it later. Since I'm less than thrilled about powering up the entire system (861, amps, circ fans based on 861 triggers, etc), I don't use Meridian COMMs between the 861 and 800. That way, I get more discrete control (at the "cost" of an additional RS-232 port on the automation system).


Huh? I'm confused by this, sorry. Snell & Wilcox produced software for the AMX system; I'm not sure if they produced software for Crestron or not. Are you using their stuff, or did you "roll your own"?

What they call the RC_BRI_CMD parameter (for brightness), hex $40, takes a discrete value from 0 to 255. Being that it's discrete, I don't understand how it can "jump by large increments". I think this may be a problem with your control system, not with the S&W. Since this is definitely NOT a problem with PC Shoebox, and since PC Shoebox uses the identical protocol as the S&W AMX software, I'd give this an exceedingly low likelihood that it's a bug in the S&W G2 Interpolator.

I did find a number of bugs with the S&W firmware in dealing with the rollcall protocol. This was "new", obviously, with the G2, since that's the first time the protocol was available for external controllers (like the AMX) to use. If you do find real bugs with the protocol, talk with Luke, and he'll probably put you in contact with Martin. Of the ten or so bugs that I had reported, they fixed most of them (they gave me workarounds for one or two of them rather than fixing the firmware).

While you're are waiting for your Panja remotes or RS-232 cables to come in, you can always use spare source buttons to allow quick access to favorite Sounfields, ie

CD=CD/DVD Transport = Trifield 44.1 5 channel
Tape 2=CD/DVD Transport = Trifield HS 3 channel
VCR 2 =CD/DVD Transport = DPII

For those of you with just a few sources this will be an ok solution...those of you with many input sources you'll need to go RS-232

Hi Jeff,

"I just couldn't make the mental jump to pay several thousand dollars for a f***ing TV remote control (that's the wording I used at the time). But her comment convinced me."

I also yielded to the wife, figuring I was already spending several thousand dollars for what you noted above, without the "TV remote control" anyway.

The downside of all that automation is that my DILA projector is now accessible by my wife and 5 kids, who use it , the other home automation items that I have added, etc. regularly-net result-a LOT of hours on the bulb.

I am planning on using winamp to access MP3's on the server of my home LAN, through Crestron's ethernet hookup. I know you indicated that you have no experience with Crestron, but have you used winamp/other system for this. My application is really for whole house/zone audio-planning to have the music "follow" you around as various motion detecrors from the security system are tripped and then relay that to he distribution pad for that zone's speakers, for example-easy to do, as you know, once the system is in place.

320 bit rate MP3's sound pretty good to me and my teenagers on the Neridian suite, so I am looking forward to trying the winamp or similar solution for access/feedback of MP3 data.

Thank you very much

Rich

<<<My application is really for whole house/zone audio-planning to have the music "follow" you around as various motion detecrors from the security system are tripped and then relay that to he distribution pad for that zone's speakers.....>>>

this is VERY cool dude, but how will the motion detectors know who YOU are? one of the kids could be in the upstairs hallway while you're walking from the den to the garage - all of a sudden you get Barney's greatest hits and your kid gets Nine Inch Nails ;-)

sab

Oh, No problem, they listen to what I pay for. Actually, one of my kid's has a band-might take a look on Napster-Ira's All Stars.

More to the point though, your argument is cogent. The setup I have allows each/several/all zones to have different sources of audio-including admonishing WAV files. I intend to have the audio input in each zone tailored to that usual occupant, thereby inflicting my personal favorite-Ludicrus on all but my mother-in-law-nah, she needs a dose too. Since I have "drawn time and date" in Crestron, the time of day and day of the week can also be useful for hall entry music, for example, when the little rascals arrive from school. The programming will have logic that makes the occupant(me) of the MAster bedroom's egress superscede any audio surces in operationBe certain, when I am around Barney will be muted. Come to think of it, nothing purple is allowed in MY house, except ocassional rain.

Nothing like a little fun at the old shack.:-)

BTW, RAdio Ra was fairly simple to install and integrate into Crestron.

Ciao
Riccardo