One of my Meridian Prime improvements was in replacing the supplied mains cable with Audioquest NRG-X3. In due course, I will upgrade my 210 and 218 with the same C5 derived cable. To my knowledge, it’s the only quality C5 type cable on the market.
Sadly, it wasn’t possible to replace my M6’s mains cable due to the rigid construction of the AQ NRG-X3 allied to constrained access to the M6’s mains input.
Now I own DSP5200SE’s my options for replacing the supplied C13 mains cable is significantly better - from £85 for 2 metres to a stratospheric £7k (!).
What, if any, mains cable have others used to replace their supplied DSP’s mains cable - and what perceived improvement resulted?
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#1: DSP5200SE|DSW.2|218|210|506.2|504 #2: Prime/PSU|SOtM sMS-200 Mini NEO SE|Focal Stellia
There are many on this forum who have used Shunyata Research power cables to great effect with their DSP speakers.
www.cmbintegrations.com One step from the Presidency #1 Trinnov Altitude 32-8-16, 271, 8000XE, 7200SEHC, 7200.2, Seaton F18, JL Fathom F113, Revel w990's, Kef R7, ATI 528 Amp, JVC RS4100K, SI screen. Roon Nucleus+, Eno AG, Eno M link, 218. #2 Mark Levinson No5105, Ayre VX8 and CX8, Vandersteen Treo CT, Preamp varies. #3 Meridian Ellipse
Shunyata Research Venom V14 is available in a C5 plug configuration. They also make adapters allowing any C15 power cable to be used in a device requiring a C5 connector. The caveat being there needs to be adequate clearance to accommodate the adapter and cord.
www.cmbintegrations.com One step from the Presidency #1 Trinnov Altitude 32-8-16, 271, 8000XE, 7200SEHC, 7200.2, Seaton F18, JL Fathom F113, Revel w990's, Kef R7, ATI 528 Amp, JVC RS4100K, SI screen. Roon Nucleus+, Eno AG, Eno M link, 218. #2 Mark Levinson No5105, Ayre VX8 and CX8, Vandersteen Treo CT, Preamp varies. #3 Meridian Ellipse
Now I own DSP5200SE’s my options for replacing the supplied C13 mains cable is significantly better - from £85 for 2 metres to a stratospheric £7k (!).
What, if any, mains cable have others used to replace their supplied DSP’s mains cable - and what perceived improvement resulted?
I found that a Shunyata Denali 2000/T with competent $200 cords made my 5200SE’s sing, with much tighter bass and, especially, lifelike dynamics. I paid $2,500 USD new, so it should be had for less than $2k used I would guess.
I had the same experience with the Denali 2000/T and an inexpensive Shunyata cable with DSP7200SE's. The bass was unmistakably tighter, and there was a general relaxation of the sound.
I always wonder with the question of replacing mains cables what about the very cheap mains cable that runs all over the house. I mean, it’s one solid core of copper. And it goes through a consumer unit with micro switches. How does replacing a tiny part of the mains cable chain with a flexible cable that can cost up to £7k make any difference to the sound when the first thing that happens inside a Meridian speaker is yet another fuse and then a big transformer? i just want to understand the science of these expensive mains cables.
ROON Rock on an NUC across the systems Sitting room: 218, DSP7200SE Study: 218, Quad 303, Spendor BC1 Bedroom: Musical Fidelity A3CR, Chartwell LS3/5a Various Sonos boxes in bathroom and spare rooms
Over the years I've purchased and used a number cables from The Missing Link. I use their reference hcx mains cables to feed my pair of 5200SEs. Not compared them to anything else bar the supplied Meridian mains leads. Im very rusty on the before & after findings as added the missing link cables quite a few years ago. I can certainly remember an immediate improvement in the overall width / depth and overal size of the perceived soundstage in particular.
I got a good deal on the mains cables at the time as I had a few other unused cables from years gone by which I part exd against the missing link cables.
These guys will pretty much make you whatever you require re connectors, cable length etc. They mainly use silver in all of their cables, plugs, connectors etc
Not really. it seems to claim that the mains cable acts as a filter. Much better ways of filtering are available but it seems to ignore the fact that it is the power supply that actually provides power to the amplifier, for example, will have filtering of a much better quality than a cable.
ROON Rock on an NUC across the systems Sitting room: 218, DSP7200SE Study: 218, Quad 303, Spendor BC1 Bedroom: Musical Fidelity A3CR, Chartwell LS3/5a Various Sonos boxes in bathroom and spare rooms
Agree with AndrewPG, not a great explanation, reads like ChatGPT with added marketing BS; the mention of ‘skin effect’ on a 50/60Hz cable raised my eyebrow.
The graph of the different conductors was a bit disingenuous too.
Shunyata recommended the NR variants for DSP speakers.
www.cmbintegrations.com One step from the Presidency #1 Trinnov Altitude 32-8-16, 271, 8000XE, 7200SEHC, 7200.2, Seaton F18, JL Fathom F113, Revel w990's, Kef R7, ATI 528 Amp, JVC RS4100K, SI screen. Roon Nucleus+, Eno AG, Eno M link, 218. #2 Mark Levinson No5105, Ayre VX8 and CX8, Vandersteen Treo CT, Preamp varies. #3 Meridian Ellipse
As a Shunyata dealer I never had a Alpha or Sigma cable come back from a trial. I cannot say the same for the Venom series.
www.cmbintegrations.com One step from the Presidency #1 Trinnov Altitude 32-8-16, 271, 8000XE, 7200SEHC, 7200.2, Seaton F18, JL Fathom F113, Revel w990's, Kef R7, ATI 528 Amp, JVC RS4100K, SI screen. Roon Nucleus+, Eno AG, Eno M link, 218. #2 Mark Levinson No5105, Ayre VX8 and CX8, Vandersteen Treo CT, Preamp varies. #3 Meridian Ellipse
One rule of note with cables, minimal cost generally equates to minimal benefit. The middle of the road is the best bang per buck. The law of diminishing returns bites fast beyond that level.
www.cmbintegrations.com One step from the Presidency #1 Trinnov Altitude 32-8-16, 271, 8000XE, 7200SEHC, 7200.2, Seaton F18, JL Fathom F113, Revel w990's, Kef R7, ATI 528 Amp, JVC RS4100K, SI screen. Roon Nucleus+, Eno AG, Eno M link, 218. #2 Mark Levinson No5105, Ayre VX8 and CX8, Vandersteen Treo CT, Preamp varies. #3 Meridian Ellipse
This assumes that there is any benefit whatsoever. It's certainly not measurable or explainable. That doesn't stop people believing power cables make a difference. Let's not try to establish a "truth" by repeating our own beliefs without qualifying them, i.e. I can't explain and I can't demonstrate in a scientific way. This "truth" doesn't benefit a newcomer, it only provides comfort for those who have already bought the idea or those who sell the idea.
Puritan Audio have good rep. If I wanted to try any more, having done the rounds more the once, I'd try them. For clarity, I don't sell this idea and I haven't bought.
To each their own. There are usually three different reactions to cables, your equipment is not of sufficient quality to resolve the difference, your equipment is so good that it cannot be improved upon or your hearing is not able to discern the difference. I, too, was very cable skeptical until the folks at Shunyata sent me tens of thousands of dollars of cables to try. I had reference grade equipment with a 818v3 and 8000SE and the differences made by the cables were distinct and immediate. Unless you have made the commitment to try these things in your system, your comments can only be taken with a grain of salt. Not everyone can appreciate the difference between box wine and fine wine but it is there and you may not be able to measure it. The CMB Integrations demo room in Greer South Carolina boasts the largest installation of Audioquest Dragon cables in the world along with the largest HRS rack built to date. In a room such as this, the benefits of cable and system equipment synergy can be clearly and repetitively demonstrated.
www.cmbintegrations.com One step from the Presidency #1 Trinnov Altitude 32-8-16, 271, 8000XE, 7200SEHC, 7200.2, Seaton F18, JL Fathom F113, Revel w990's, Kef R7, ATI 528 Amp, JVC RS4100K, SI screen. Roon Nucleus+, Eno AG, Eno M link, 218. #2 Mark Levinson No5105, Ayre VX8 and CX8, Vandersteen Treo CT, Preamp varies. #3 Meridian Ellipse
Please don't categorise or try to reduce my own conclusions. I am not a retailer, I don't personally benefit from promoting this unproved, inexplicable phenomenon. I'm unbiased.
Originally Posted by CMB Integrations - Bruce
Unless you have made the commitment to try these things in your system, your comments can only be taken with a grain of salt.
I said I've tried, made my own, bought (and re-sold ) expensive cables. So my comments can't be taken with a pinch of salt, or dismissed because you disagree.
Shunyata sent you very expensive cables (loan or to keep?) and you're a retailer. Would you describe yourself as unbiased?
So you claim you can hear the difference, were these double blind tests? Any science involved or did you just "hear" the difference, clearly.
Suggesting my equipment isn't up to it or my ears aren't good enough just about sums up the paucity of your argument.
Take a moment and explain the science behind this phenomenon or just keep chanting the mantra as someone who is far from unbiased by definition. You are in a minority opinion regarding cables and there's good reasons for that. Each to their own, including minorities and the unexplained. Whilst we're on the topic, how do you feel about UFOs?
Yes, and it does make an appreciable difference in a system that is able to resolve those differences, although stepping up to Blizzard would be worth consideration.
www.cmbintegrations.com One step from the Presidency #1 Trinnov Altitude 32-8-16, 271, 8000XE, 7200SEHC, 7200.2, Seaton F18, JL Fathom F113, Revel w990's, Kef R7, ATI 528 Amp, JVC RS4100K, SI screen. Roon Nucleus+, Eno AG, Eno M link, 218. #2 Mark Levinson No5105, Ayre VX8 and CX8, Vandersteen Treo CT, Preamp varies. #3 Meridian Ellipse
Have you never asked yourself how this works? No curiosity or desire to understand? The impact on SQ can't actually be measured but if you can't hear it, there's something wrong with your system? Really? Goodness
You missed the other two reasons. Most companies can provide you with all sorts of "scientific " proof in white papers and measurements but none of that means a hoot if you can't appreciate the difference. Have you tried any type of tweeks in your system? What is your system comprised of? We can't tell from your signature nor from your contributions to these forums. Maybe if we know what you are basing your opinions on, we can understand if it is real world experience or plain old skepticism.
www.cmbintegrations.com One step from the Presidency #1 Trinnov Altitude 32-8-16, 271, 8000XE, 7200SEHC, 7200.2, Seaton F18, JL Fathom F113, Revel w990's, Kef R7, ATI 528 Amp, JVC RS4100K, SI screen. Roon Nucleus+, Eno AG, Eno M link, 218. #2 Mark Levinson No5105, Ayre VX8 and CX8, Vandersteen Treo CT, Preamp varies. #3 Meridian Ellipse
I am actually aware that In the Fields has tried a variety of the benefits that such after market additions are supposed to deliver. And has plenty of Meridian and other equipment with which to test them. A brief search of posts here will confirm that.
And the difference between a box wine and a fine wine are pretty easy to measure in terms of the production. But you can’t compare apples and oranges. I still go back to my original post here. I always wonder with the question of replacing mains cables what about the very cheap mains cable that runs all over the house. I mean, it’s one solid core of copper. And it goes through a consumer unit with micro switches. How does replacing a tiny part of the mains cable chain with a flexible cable that can cost up to £7k make any difference to the sound when the first thing that happens inside a Meridian speaker is yet another fuse and then a big transformer? i just want to understand the science of these expensive mains cables.
So are people saying there actually is no science? Roger Nichols - sound engineer and solidly scientific- made clear arguments for implementing a balanced power system. It’s easier to do in the States with a 110 volt system. Well, easier in that it’s less dangerous than with 240 volts as we have over here. But his arguments were based on the complete chain of mains delivery. Unless people are replacing every cable in the chain then what we are left with is the proposal that the short mains cable acts as some kind of filter. And if that’s the case, then it can be measured. And if it’s about filtering, then the filtering inside the speaker power supply will be more efficient for a number of clear, scientific reasons.
And of course the power supply of a particular device like an amplifier or streamer can make a difference. You will see that In the Fields is very aware of that. But the cable? Let’s at least try to explain the science…
ROON Rock on an NUC across the systems Sitting room: 218, DSP7200SE Study: 218, Quad 303, Spendor BC1 Bedroom: Musical Fidelity A3CR, Chartwell LS3/5a Various Sonos boxes in bathroom and spare rooms
Gentlemen, this topic really should not descend into a handbags at dawn dispute.
Sure, discussion on the merits of power cables is criticised by some as ‘a sham, a scam, and not worth a damn’ - typically by those who haven’t taken the time to at least home-audition such products with their own equipment.
At least they can scorn and pity us ‘fools’ on wasting our money. They really shouldn’t lose any sleep on our folly.
With the 2 mains tweaks I’ve added to my own system, I’m persuaded there is sufficient merit by audio improvements to my system that they are not some mere placebo gain. It’s persuaded me to maximise the potential of my DSP’s within a proportionate budget without my wallet skipping a beat.
I’m reminded of the Audioquest demonstration from 5 years ago on their range of power cables coupled with a cheap mains block compared to their entry-level mains conditioner. As amply stated during the demonstration, which mains cable you chose is relative to your system’s value and what you’re willing to pay.
Marmite.
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#1: DSP5200SE|DSW.2|218|210|506.2|504 #2: Prime/PSU|SOtM sMS-200 Mini NEO SE|Focal Stellia
The question isn’t about marmite. It’s about science. If something sounds different there is a reason. The question is about the reason something sounds different. And about discovering with a double blind test whether something really does sound different or if we are somehow being deceived by other factors.
ROON Rock on an NUC across the systems Sitting room: 218, DSP7200SE Study: 218, Quad 303, Spendor BC1 Bedroom: Musical Fidelity A3CR, Chartwell LS3/5a Various Sonos boxes in bathroom and spare rooms
Maybe this will help, but especially if you want to see something that is measurable rather than perceptible.
These are demonstrations using a ‘dirty mains analyser’ in the UK and USA - and the reduction in mains noise by using Shunyata (NR) mains cables.
Such mains analysers are available in the UK and USA.
It’s a pity that dealerships don’t have such devices for their customers to borrow - but I suspect their charge for borrowing the device would exceed the cost of buying one for yourself.
Given the price of Shunyata (NR) Cables, paying £/$/€100 for a mains analyser is a small price to pay to establish if such cables would be beneficial or not.
For me, rather than buying such cables specifically for each DSP, maybe buying/using a suitable quality mains block connected to a Shunyata (NR) mains cable is the better option to improve all of my system’s components (not just my DSP’s).
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rather than buying such cables specifically for each DSP, maybe buying/using a suitable quality mains block connected to a Shunyata (NR) mains cable is the better to improve all of my system’s components (not just my DSP’s).
I like your thinking.
I'd probably go for something other than Shunyata myself, but cleaning up the power and then distributing it makes good sense. You just have to make sure that (a) you are not choking the current anywhere and (b) nothing is polluting the power on the "clean" side.
Last edited by VirusKiller; 2024-08-0111:25.
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I’m open to all suggestions for alternative power cables.
I was surprised to discover VanDenHul have noise reduction power cables. Given how Meridian once used VDH wiring in their products engendered a sense of nostalgia in possibly using VDH mains cables.
Unfortunately, I cannot find any reviews.
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#1: DSP5200SE|DSW.2|218|210|506.2|504 #2: Prime/PSU|SOtM sMS-200 Mini NEO SE|Focal Stellia
Maybe this will help, but especially if you want to see something that is measurable rather than perceptible.
These are demonstrations using a ‘dirty mains analyser’ in the UK and USA - and the reduction in mains noise by using Shunyata (NR) mains cables.
Such mains analysers are available in the UK and USA.
It’s a pity that dealerships don’t have such devices for their customers to borrow - but I suspect their charge for borrowing the device would exceed the cost of buying one for yourself.
Given the price of Shunyata (NR) Cables, paying £/$/€100 for a mains analyser is a small price to pay to establish if such cables would be beneficial or not.
For me, rather than buying such cables specifically for each DSP, maybe buying/using a suitable quality mains block connected to a Shunyata (NR) mains cable is the better option to improve all of my system’s components (not just my DSP’s).
These demos are something of a gimmick, it's easy to produce that effect by plugging in various "noise reducers". Thing is, does the noise actually affect the DSP/amp? Probably not.
There is a big assumption that noise affects SQ, it's not that simple. In any event, AC usually becomes DC, why not clean up the DC after it's passed that far? Funny, that's what people do. Bob Stuart at the HHer factory tour (2013?), when asked about power cables (by me) said "it all happens inside". Regulators, low drop regulators etc.
In any event, AC usually becomes DC, why not clean up the DC after it's passed that far? Funny, that's what people do. Bob Stuart at the HHer factory tour (2013?), when asked about power cables (by me) said "it all happens inside". Regulators, low drop regulators etc.
Exactly this. It all happens inside.
I’m sure the Vandenhul cables are great. And at least you can buy the cable and make up the lengths you need. But unless you are replacing the wiring all the way through your house the effects they mention are no going to be happening. What is going to be happening is the filtering inside the unit’s power supply once it becomes DC.
ROON Rock on an NUC across the systems Sitting room: 218, DSP7200SE Study: 218, Quad 303, Spendor BC1 Bedroom: Musical Fidelity A3CR, Chartwell LS3/5a Various Sonos boxes in bathroom and spare rooms
Bob Stuart at the HHer factory tour (2013?), when asked about power cables (by me) said "it all happens inside".
Are you sure that’s what you think you heard? Was it only your subjective hearing, rather than providing any objective, written, evidence of your listening experience?
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After a quick search I found this Demo by Shunyata funny enough at my local hifi dealer who at my last visit looked at me like I was a idiot for using M DSP speakers
A while ago I had a talk with the technician from Viertron which is the dutch distributor of M. He told me that the mains cable can make a difference. Mostly because the normal cables have thin 0,75mm2 conductors which can supress the dynamics when higher currents are asked by the amp. So thicker conductors could help and some shielding could also help. Does it make a big difference? To some its a world of difference to others not even noticeable.
Perhaps comparable to having your 267.8 MPH Bugatti Veyron tuned for 100.000 to go 7 MPH faster. A world of difference for some drivers and not noticable and worth the money for others.
For me a nice supra cable or the cheap LAPP ÖLFLEX CLASSIC 3 x 2,5mm2 makes sense, puts me at ease... I've used the LAPP from the fuse box to the dedicated audio wall socket which is only 4 meters so not too much trouble to do so. Does it sound different, I didn't bother to check but it was only 20 euro for 4mtrs of shielded cable.
In the UK, Naim supply their products as standard with a Power-Line Lite mains cable, with the after-sales option of buying their superior Power-Line variant. Ironically, this would work with Meridian C13 products, too.
I would like Meridian to offer a better specified after-sales mains cable, as they do in offering Cat5 or Cat7 alternative SpeakerLink Cables. The caveat being that Meridian would also have to supply different plugs for different markets, so it’s highly unlikely that an alternative Meridian mains cable is ever likely to become a reality.
EDIT: the Naim Power-Line is similar in price to the Shunyata Gamma: I would rather buy the latter.
I contacted the UK Shunyata distributor for advice on where to locally borrow a pair of Shunyata Gamma cables for home-audition. Guillaume’s response was to approach a dealership located 200 miles away in Newcastle-on-Tyne - and confirmed his response when I questioned it. Not a practical option.
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It would have been nice if Meridian had spent a few quid in some decent mains cables to go with a pair of 35k DSP speakers instead of supplying them with the same cords that came with my 70 euro PC monitor.
For me It doesn't add up to the high end experience of such a purshase and feels a little cheap and disappointing,
Russ Andrews (UK), a Meridian dealer, offers a week’s rental of the Audio Prism Noise Sniffer, including one of their mains silencer’s for £35.
That’s considerably cheaper than buying your own device at £135 (inc VAT) that you would probably use once. The caveat is that the Russ Andrews device doesn’t have a digital readout, so you cannot objectively measure mains noise.
Maybe biased, but Peter at Russ Andrews stated that their Evolution-300 PowerKord’s, when tested, improved the performance of their DSP5200SE’s and DSP3200’s.
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I have read several threads on this forum across past years on using after-market power cables with Meridian kit, with the same three naysayers criticising their use across all these threads.
So, here’s a summary list of misconceptions on mains cable use with audio equipment just for them.
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I think there's a difference between encouraging scepticism (in the absence of evidence or even theory) and "naysayers criticising their use". My recent comments relate to comments which are trying to establish some kind of truth. This is wrong and could result in innocent people assuming that this particular tweak is known to be effective. It isn't. Plenty of tweaks are.
DC power- ripple etc all measurable demonstrable and hearable (e.g. 218 DC input tweak). No serious audiophile spends much time on mains cable, other than it being well constructed etc. from my observation. Retailers and manufacturers are particularly good sources of unbiased information.
What an odd article. Most of those 'misconceptions' I have never heard anyone say before and seemed contrived to create an article. I certainly have never heard anyone describe electricity as water before. The misconceptions about external EMI and manufacturer designed power supplies actually seem like arguments against high end power cables. As to component generated EMI surely all the points the article raises are mitigated by well designed equipment that has a decent power supply and effective shielding/screening.
The article actually makes me even less inclined to believe in the benefits of aftermarket power cable rather than more. Which considering the article originated from a manufacturer of power cables and starts with the premise that aftermarket cables make an obvious improvement to both audio and video is quite an achievement!
Whilst I realise this is not the intent of the article but what it lacks, like pretty much everything else I have read, is a clear definition of the problems that need fixing and an explanation as to how each of those problems are addressed together with a comparison as to why fixing the problem in that particular way is better than fixing it by other means. It would also be nice to see an explanation of why the problem needs fixing in the first place since I am not always convinced that some of the issues being fixed, although they exist, are actually a problem.
My simple uneducated take away from the article is to buy decent equipment and as long as the power cable is properly constructed not to worry about it.
The article actually makes me even less inclined to believe in the benefits of aftermarket power cable rather than more. Which considering the article originated from a manufacturer of power cables and starts with the premise that aftermarket cables make an obvious improvement to both audio and video is quite an achievement!
Totally agree.
There is an audiophile fuse that one can buy. It costs £4,200 from Future shop. And there is a ‘grounding box’. Made of wood. Apparently filled with sand. But of course it must work because it costs £16,500.
It is amazing people will buy this stuff but you can’t stop people wasting money (apparently).
ROON Rock on an NUC across the systems Sitting room: 218, DSP7200SE Study: 218, Quad 303, Spendor BC1 Bedroom: Musical Fidelity A3CR, Chartwell LS3/5a Various Sonos boxes in bathroom and spare rooms
Proviso: I do believe that ensuring good mains is important; I'm not prescribing how or with what 3rd party kit (if any), but I do adhere to a "do no harm" principle.
I have to say that "straw man arguments" was EXACTLY my reaction to reading the first few items in that Shunyata (marketing) piece. In my opinion, it's gobbledygook which is nothing more than a feel-good purchase softener, and it reeks of pseudo-science, not least the "appearance of being scientific" without the necessary rigor of following the scientific method. I've seen other pseudo-science-y claims elsewhere on Shunyata's website.
I'm not going to tell people what they can or cannot buy -- and there are people I trust who swear by the improvements that Shunyata products have made in their system -- but as someone who cares an awful lot about good science, I have never and will never buy anything from Shunyata. On principle.
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It’s all kind of strange and lots of marketing woven into a story if you ask me. The skineffect remark made me laugh and doubting my technical education but hey, that was a long time ago. I was kind of curious just like some others in what the Entech really measures.
Quote
This meter is a measuring instrument capable of monitoring and measuring the radio frequency noise ranging from 300KHz-700KHz present on 120VAC 60Hz power outlets.
The meter's speaker projects the amplified demodulated AM FM noise present on the power line under test. A very handy and capable meter designed to show the end user if the power supplied or generated is "clean" or "dirty". Dirty or noisy is undesirable for ANY home or business with amplified systems. This unit tests the cleanliness of the power being used. Clean power is what you'd want in your entertainment system for optimal sound clarity. Before you buy an expensive system make sure it's power line is clean as can be for the best sound quality with this meter."
It’s used here in combination with Shunyata in which Shunyata does make a difrence.
But
It also is used here on ASR post 38 with similar results but might be worth to look into.
I’m not saying that everything written over mains-power is BS but there is al lot of marketing.surrounding it
So trying it would be the only sollution when in doubt.
In an earlier post, I stated that a given brand of dirty mains analyser was available to buy in the UK and USA.
I have since watched a comparative video of this product with one manufactured by Entech.
In the video, the Entech mains analyser registers a reduction in mains noise when a Shunyata NR mains cable is added to the wall outlet, but no such noise reduction is indicated on the other type of dirty mains analyser.
So, ignore my previous suggestion if you’re thinking about buying one. Buy the Entech model if you can find one, otherwise you will be wasting your hard-earned money.
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#1: DSP5200SE|DSW.2|218|210|506.2|504 #2: Prime/PSU|SOtM sMS-200 Mini NEO SE|Focal Stellia
A recent posting by Darko (highlighting an online conversation between 2 ‘audiophiles’) reminded me so much about the negativity by some on deploying better mains cables…
Originally Posted by Darko
Audiophile #1: ‘The Sky is Blue with some Orange and Red’.
Audiophile #2: ‘The Sky is Blue’.
Audiophile #1: ‘It is Sunset where I live, and the Sky is Blue with some Orange and Red’.
Audiophile #2: ‘No, the Sky is Blue!’ Show me a peer-reviewed White Paper that proves that the Sky is Blue with some Orange and Red!’
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Here are some results using an ENTECH device mentioned above:
I don’t think anyone is denying there is noise on a typical domestic ring main. The question is where filtering takes place. The point that Bob Stuart has made is that it takes place inside the speaker and before any power gets to the electronics in there. So the question is: can this ENTECH device measure at that point? I think the answer is no.
ROON Rock on an NUC across the systems Sitting room: 218, DSP7200SE Study: 218, Quad 303, Spendor BC1 Bedroom: Musical Fidelity A3CR, Chartwell LS3/5a Various Sonos boxes in bathroom and spare rooms
Power products are snake oil and the marketing is all bllx. That is the gist of the posts above.
When you see some objective evidence that they are doing what they say they are doing you move the argument. It gets very thin indeed just to defend a position despite being presented with some object evidence.
When a difference can be heard you just rely on hearsay that a difference could not be heard because the designer said so.
That designer built to a budget. Over the years that budget and designs got better. XE ripped up many of those designs and got better.
So a better input power signal can be delivered but makes no difference. That is your belief and you’re sticking to it.
The point that Bob Stuart has made is that it takes place inside the speaker and before any power gets to the electronics in there.
You’re not being consistent in your need to see objective evidence by others, but willingly accept without question what Bob Stuart claims without equally demanding the exact same burden of proof on him as you demand from others.
Not an Actor, nor married to Jamie-Lee Curtis.
#1: DSP5200SE|DSW.2|218|210|506.2|504 #2: Prime/PSU|SOtM sMS-200 Mini NEO SE|Focal Stellia
When you see some objective evidence that they are doing what they say they are doing you move the argument.
Umm, no. My argument has always been that there is noise on the mains and that a power cable isn’t going to be a very efficient filter, and that there are better ways of filtering - like a regenerator or power conditioner or a balanced mains supply, which is the best way, I think. But I have also maintained that filtering takes place in the power supply of the actual product - in my case some 7200SE speakers.
I don’t have £8000 to spend on a mains conditioner. And I don’t have £4000 to spend on an ‘audiophile’ fuse. Or £16000 to spend on a ground box that is full of sand. Or a few thousand on several power cables. I don’t have such money because I’d choose to spend it on other ways of improving things that can be really heard - like room correction software and hardware.
ROON Rock on an NUC across the systems Sitting room: 218, DSP7200SE Study: 218, Quad 303, Spendor BC1 Bedroom: Musical Fidelity A3CR, Chartwell LS3/5a Various Sonos boxes in bathroom and spare rooms
I lost count of how many times you move the argument here. Now that you see noise reduction is actually happening you claim there are better ways, there is lots of really expensive snake oil products out there and you choose not to buy them.
You didn’t seem to read my last post or several I have made before. I have always said there is noise on mains power supply. I have always said there are better ways to remove noise than a power cable. I have always said the most efficient way to do it is in the power supply that actual delivers volts and current to the amplifiers etc.
Please do check back. I haven’t shifted any goal posts.
ROON Rock on an NUC across the systems Sitting room: 218, DSP7200SE Study: 218, Quad 303, Spendor BC1 Bedroom: Musical Fidelity A3CR, Chartwell LS3/5a Various Sonos boxes in bathroom and spare rooms
I don't think Andrew has moved the argument; he has clearly stated that the best place to filter out any spurious mains noise is in the power supply.
My position is the same:
There is noise on the mains; fridges and freezers are good (bad?) sources for this. Mains filters work as designed. Shielded cables work as designed. Plugs and cables that meet the relevant standards (BS1363 etc.) work as designed. If mains filtering and 'special' mains cables can make a difference to the measured performance of an piece of equipment (audio or other), the equipment is poorly designed and fails the EMC requirement (electromagnetic compatibility BS 61000). Getting rid of the noise on the mains is very very easy (and cheap) once you are on the DC side, simple smoothing capacitors of the correct type and size.
A last thought, if your equipment is susceptible to mains noise, maybe it's power supply is out of specification, usually the capacitors are the culprits.
I think the discussion has become a little bit polarized. Maybe it is not so black and white? There is noise on the mains, the power supply needs to get rid of it, but maybe a power cable could reduce some noise and improve total system performance? I don’t know.
I am very sceptical about expensive mains cables. But many people say it makes a difference and if people have tried it and hear a difference I am the last to say its all BS. Maybe it does make a difference, I have never tried high end mains cables on my speakers. But I believe the rationale of the non believers more than the people that say it makes a massive difference. At the same time, respect listeners that believe they hear a difference and not request scientific proof. Especially if you haven’t tried it yourself. If people hear a difference, great for them!
What's left out in most discussions is the magnetic influence of a not schielded mains cable on the surrounding (signal)cables especially if they run symmetrical and close to each other. Changing that to shielded could make a difference in measurements and sound wise.
These discussions always do seem to become polarised, it feels like people have already decided what they believe to be true and no further investigation is necessary (as an aside, I didn't believe in high-end mains cables until I tried one).
Two quick thoughts:
* An early comment in this thread was about the skin effect at mains frequency being insignificant, yet our devices don't draw power that way. They take gulps of power when they need it, which (esp. with an amp) will mean much higher frequencies.
* Improved filtering in the PSU would make sense, but how far should they go? Build a £20k amp with the ultimate in power smoothing rather than a £4k amp? Not likely to work commercially (and that's ignoring the various patents around these things). In any case, how would you put a Shunyata Denali inside a DSP speaker? What about all those who would prefer to use an Everest? What happens if the next big improvement arrives before the next DSP speaker?
I get the scepticism, but try a decent mains cable before deciding. Your wallet may never forgive you, though
An early comment in this thread was about the skin effect at mains frequency being insignificant, yet our devices don't draw power that way. They take gulps of power when they need it, which (esp. with an amp) will mean much higher frequencies.:
The current draw from the device comes from the DC side of the power supply (reservoir capacitors), the AC side tops this up; the frequency of the draw is independent of the 50 / 60 Hz mains frequency.
Skin effect at 50Hz is about 9mm, so only makes a difference if each conductor is 18mm in diameter, that’s a lot of current capacity.
Skin effect at 50Hz is about 9mm, so only makes a difference if each conductor is 18mm in diameter, that’s a lot of current capacity.
If you draw current at a higher-than-mains frequency when (say) playing an oboe through your speakers, that current will be passed back to the mains supply.
Unlike how an incandescent lightbulb draws power at a relatively constant rate (in time with the mains frequency), the PSU doesn't sit there and think 'I'll sip the power supply to recharge and hope there isn't a drum beat anytime soon', it tries to recharge its capacitors as quickly as it can (made worse by the rectifier bridge introducing a voltage drop, which increases the spikes of current drawn).
It's the change in current drawn by the music being played (in this example) that induces the skin effect, not the mains frequency (the impact of which, I agree, is negligible).
The power dissipation in any class A amplifier is constant, whether Quiescent or at Full power. So the power draw from the mains is constant. Class D is different. Power is drawn at the transition of the digital switching, and these is often back noise at 50-100Khz from switchmode PSU's as well. This can get back into the mains chain and by radiation into the audio chain, if attention is not paid to the routing of the cables (mains cable at 90 degrees to signal cables). This is where a screened mains cable comes into its own, in reducing the potential noise floor. However, a proper mains filter, and, if you have smps, screened mains lead. Will make a much bigger difference than ANY expensive boutique mains cable, and is substantially cheaper. Think a quarter of the price of a Russ Andrews BS mains block.
These IEC C14 to C5 Adaptors are available at a much better price, just add shipping (also available from RS and PartsExpress, etc.).
561, HD621, DSP5000s(24/96), DSP33C, DSP33 surrounds, Pioneer DV575A CD/SACD/DVD-A, Panasonic DB170 (561 to be replaced with G68 shortly.)
The power dissipation in any class A amplifier is constant, whether Quiescent or at Full power. So the power draw from the mains is constant.
I don't believe this to be true and it goes against everything I've learned. A class A amp, at its simplest, is a single transistor with a base (which is the input to be amplified), a collector (which is the power supply), and an emitter (the output). The higher the current that flows from the base, the proportionately greater the number of electrons allowed to flow from the collector to the emitter. Ergo: the power draw has to be proportional to the music being played.
In a class A amp, there is always a positive bias to the base, which means there is always power being drawn (and heat generated), but not the same amount regardless of the volume or the music being played.
the PSU doesn't sit there and think 'I'll sip the power supply to recharge and hope there isn't a drum beat anytime soon', it tries to recharge its capacitors as quickly as it can (made worse by the rectifier bridge introducing a voltage drop, which increases the spikes of current drawn).
The current that an amplifier uses to drive loudspeakers comes from the charge held in the reservoir capacitors; the capacitors are (and can only be) charged at 2 x mains frequency (full rectification).
The DC side of a power supply is isolated from the AC by the reservoir of charge in the capacitors; when you design a power supply, you calculate the required capacitance for the voltage and current requirements, if they are inadequate, you will get intermodulation distortion.
the capacitors are (and can only be) charged at 2 x mains frequency (full rectification).
Returning to the original point, the amplifier will draw power from its capacitors as well as the power source. The capacitors will then need replenishing, which they will do so as fast as possible from the power line. A kick from a bass drum at a high volume will likely mean more charge will be drawn from the caps.
But the energy to power the speakers has to come from somewhere. It's the frequency (and volume) of the music being played that creates a magnetic field, which in turn causes inductance, which creates the skin effect. The mains frequency is largely a red herring in this argument (unless you're talking about a purely resistive load such as an incandescent light bulb). While I studied this topic thirty years ago, I'm sure the fundamental principles haven't changed.
What you are descibling is class B or A-B. A 50w class A will draw the same current (power) regardless of the input signal up to the clipping point, or with zero input signal the power disapation is still 50w. This is one reason they are so "clean sounding". The power supply does the heavy lifting and there is not much surge energy taken from the mains supply itself, to top up the power supply capacitors.
Last edited by ChrisW66; 2024-08-2712:55. Reason: improved explanation
561, HD621, DSP5000s(24/96), DSP33C, DSP33 surrounds, Pioneer DV575A CD/SACD/DVD-A, Panasonic DB170 (561 to be replaced with G68 shortly.)
Since I started this thread, I’ve replaced the factory-supplied C5 mains cable on my PrimePSU, 218, and 210 with Audioquest NRG-X3 C5 mains cables - providing a 'modest' improvement in perceived audio quality.
Recently, I purchased a pair of C15 Shunyata Theta NR mains cables for my DSP5200SEs from StudioAV. One of their dCS Rossini/Scarlatti customers had exchanged them for Shunyata Alpha-X NR mains cables. I wasn't able to audition them before purchase (neither did I audition my DSP5200SEs before purchasing them). The Alpha-X mains cables cost over twice as much as Theta mains cables. Even so, my Theta mains cables are in pristine factory condition and are well and truly run in.
I don't know of any Meridian owner who uses Theta mains cables. I didn't quite know what to expect from them, so I didn't have any expectation bias - other than on reading the positive Theta user experience on the Shunyata owners' forum. For me, the financial risk really was worth it. Subjectively, to my ears, in my 5 x 4 metre listening room, playing my preferred music genres, my DSP5200SEs' overall audio performance has been positively transformed.
I can't provide any objective evidence for my findings gained from any attached electronic measurement devices. That is, I cannot offer a technical assessment that would amply satisfy the naysayers’ inherent beliefs voiced elsewhere on this forum thread.
For me, in no particular order...
My DSP5200SEs have taken on the physical proportions of a prodigious Sumo Wrestler. Bass delivery is much deeper, dynamic, extended, and cleaner: it resonates and expands throughout the room. It's as though their power output has significantly increased. I've gained an increased Tardis-like internal cabinet volume and gained another (phantom) woofer. Such is the added near sub-sonic performance emanating from my DSP5200SEs, it’s as though a pair of DSW.2s has mysteriously infiltrated them.
I don't have any regrets about my purchase: I will not be returning them. Overall, Shunyata Theta NR mains cables are highly recommended for fellow DSP5200SE owners.
Not an Actor, nor married to Jamie-Lee Curtis.
#1: DSP5200SE|DSW.2|218|210|506.2|504 #2: Prime/PSU|SOtM sMS-200 Mini NEO SE|Focal Stellia
It’s great that your DSP5200SEs sound so dramatically different after using these power cables. Such differences clearly can’t be misheard and will be easily measurable. And those measurements can then be sent to Meridian so they can understand that their advice and understanding of how the power supply stuff works in their equipment is just wrong.
ROON Rock on an NUC across the systems Sitting room: 218, DSP7200SE Study: 218, Quad 303, Spendor BC1 Bedroom: Musical Fidelity A3CR, Chartwell LS3/5a Various Sonos boxes in bathroom and spare rooms
...those measurements can then be sent to Meridian so they can understand that their advice and understanding of how the power supply stuff works in their equipment is just wrong.
On that basis every other audio manufacturer on the planet has also got it wrong.
If Shunyata has got it wrong they would have gone out of business a long time ago.
If you’re so keen on taking up the cause with Meridian, then Audio Therapy will loan your chosen pair of Shunyata mains cables to audition with your own DSP7200SEs for the cost of return postage.
I, for one, am eager to read about your own objective findings.
Not an Actor, nor married to Jamie-Lee Curtis.
#1: DSP5200SE|DSW.2|218|210|506.2|504 #2: Prime/PSU|SOtM sMS-200 Mini NEO SE|Focal Stellia
Indeed so. Shunyata are laughing all the way to the bank.
I’ve done enough tests and specifically null tests with cables to enable me to look at the screen results. Others have done the same and noticed that there are not significant differences with mains cables. spinaltap you are noticing huge differences, the kind of differences that are equivalent to having a completely different pair of speakers. That is clearly worth doing some testing on, and looking at those huge differences on the waveforms and so on. If you are not keen to do the tests, then so be it.
ROON Rock on an NUC across the systems Sitting room: 218, DSP7200SE Study: 218, Quad 303, Spendor BC1 Bedroom: Musical Fidelity A3CR, Chartwell LS3/5a Various Sonos boxes in bathroom and spare rooms
AndrewPG; given that you have the necessary equipment you could become an anti-Shunyata product champion by objectively testing many of their products.
You would be hailed as someone finally revealing what a complete sham it all is, equally proving it to all those audio journalists who have been falsely beguiled in their positive reviews of their products in the past - and those of us foolish enough to have been taken in by all the unfounded hype.
Not an Actor, nor married to Jamie-Lee Curtis.
#1: DSP5200SE|DSW.2|218|210|506.2|504 #2: Prime/PSU|SOtM sMS-200 Mini NEO SE|Focal Stellia
Well there are others who have done that and it’s not my style to do that. The only thing I am keen on is discovering what the tests reveal when such huge differences in sound are heard, as you have heard them. It’s just good to know what is going on. That’s all.
Last edited by AndrewPG; 2026-04-1018:32.
ROON Rock on an NUC across the systems Sitting room: 218, DSP7200SE Study: 218, Quad 303, Spendor BC1 Bedroom: Musical Fidelity A3CR, Chartwell LS3/5a Various Sonos boxes in bathroom and spare rooms
“ I can't provide any objective evidence for my findings gained from any attached electronic measurement devices.”
Just show us some room EQ Wizard sweeps before after the application of your snake oil power cables and maybe we can have a discussion. Up until then it is just you playing with your toys.
Over the decades, there have also been number of technologies and approaches in audio that have proven to not had a sonic effect. There have also been a number that have had claims of sonic effect without objective evidence, but years later the mechanism and measurements have been discovered to explain the effect.
I've been away from the Hitchhiker's board for a few years, and was surprised at how ungentlemanly and insulting this thread has become. Very unlike my memory of how respectful even heated discussions on this board were conducted.
Could be my sometimes faulty memory, but do the insults and condescension really help move the conversation along?
“ There have also been a number that have had claims of sonic effect without objective evidence, but years later the mechanism and measurements have been discovered to explain the effect.”
I'm not sure it helps with a questionable upgrade that the believers champion it religiously. If you've bought in, you're bound to defend it. There's no scientific basis behind Shunyata cables. This is a Meridian forum, Bob Stuart answered the question during a factory visit for Hitchhikers, it's not significant. Their products don't use it.
I'm not sure manners have changed on the forum, the mods used to be quite "strict" but the've gone now.
The first few that come to mind are: - the importance of power supply design - the sonic impact of simple circuit topologies when more complex ones showed much better measurements (given what we knew to measure at that time) - the incredible debates about jitter in digital audio earlier in the digital age
In this era, the technologies that seem to have this kind of debate around them are: - Signal cable differences - Vibration management - Power source management
To self identify my experience (which might identify my biases as well): - I have perceived differences in signal cables since the beginning of my audio journey (early 1980’s), but have never heard the kinds of huge differences I’ve read that others have described. I use relatively inexpensive cables. - At least with my turntable, I was blown away by the sonic improvement of adding a platform. - I have my front speakers on Shunyata power conditioners, and was very impressed with their impact. Since then, I’ve put part of my backend system on another Shunyata conditioner, and have not perceived much change.
As a side note, my ears are getting older, and I don’t think I ever had particularly acute hearing .
It is well understood that good power supply makes a difference to the way our equipment performs. AC mains is variable in quality, and filtering is clearly important to smooth things out. Our audio equipment is supplied with DC, and the job of a properly designed power supply is to filter out the ‘noise’ from the mains supply and provide a stable supply to the amplifier or whatever.
I think the AC in the States is noisier and less stable than AC in the UK. It may need more filtering. Shunyata cables provide filtering and that may work well. spinaltap may have an issue with AC supply to their house - we don’t know. But if adding a cable can transform a DSP5200SE such that it sounds like a different speaker, then it’s worth discovering what is going on, surely? And as this is a Meridian users site, then the results of that discovery could usefully be shared widely with users, and of course with the manufacturers who must have an interest in such results.
My own position is that where filtering or power conditioning is needed, there are better ways of achieving that. Plus there are British companies who will have more experience of our AC supply which is markedly different from that in the USA. (I am also wary of supporting a US company just at present, but that is a personal preference, albeit one that many share right now)
I hope this help!
Last edited by AndrewPG; 2026-04-1108:00.
ROON Rock on an NUC across the systems Sitting room: 218, DSP7200SE Study: 218, Quad 303, Spendor BC1 Bedroom: Musical Fidelity A3CR, Chartwell LS3/5a Various Sonos boxes in bathroom and spare rooms
AndrewPG, I suspect you're right about power line noise in the U.S.
I used to live in San Jose, and the noise there (as measured by both an Entech power line noise meter, and my old [now sadly departed] oscilloscope) showed terrible noise levels. Measuring the output after a Shunyata conditioner showed unmeasurably low noise on the Entech, and much smoother waveforms on the oscilloscope.
I now live in San Diego, where the power line noise is even worse! Same result with the Shunyata conditioner. Unmeasurably low via the Entech. Unfortunately, I no longer have an oscilloscope, so I can't compare the visible waveform change.
I don't want to politicize the forum, but I completely get your comment about not wanting to buy U.S. products at the moment. No one can predict the future, but I hope we come back to something approaching normalcy again.
Just for fun, I detailed my audio system in Gemini AI and received the following assessment...
Originally Posted by Gemini AI
Replacing the factory mains cables on your Meridian DSP5200SEs with Shunyata Research Theta NR cables is likely to result in a lower noise floor and improved transient response. Because your speakers are active, they house the entire DAC and amplification chain; cleaner power directly at the speaker stage often yields more perceptible benefits than it does for passive components.
🔊 Expected Sonic Effects Based on the Theta NR technology and the architecture of the DSP5200SE, you can expect:
Increased Clarity & Resolution: The "NR" (Noise Reduction) technology provides >12dB of common-mode noise filtering. This allows low-level textural details in your Roon streams to emerge from a "blacker" background.
Improved Soundstage Focus: Users of similar high-end power cables on Meridian systems often report a wider and more coherent soundstage. The Theta NR is designed to reduce "hard transients," making the imaging feel more natural and in-focus.
Dynamic Effortlessness: The 10-gauge VTX-Ag conductors (silver core with a copper outer layer) are built to handle sudden dynamic shifts without the compression sometimes felt with standard thin-gauge factory leads.
Tonal Balance: The combination of silver's speed and copper's warmth aims to provide a lifelike presentation that complements the precise, sometimes lean, nature of Meridian’s Beryllium tweeters.
🛠️ Technical Considerations Active Speaker Synergy: Unlike a traditional amplifier where power is only for the output stage, your DSP5200SEs use power for the DSP processor, DACs, and three 75W Class-AB amplifiers. Filtering noise at this "all-in-one" endpoint is highly efficient.
Digital Signal Integrity: Since you already use Audioquest Vodka (silver-plated) for your network chain, your digital signal is already highly optimized. The Shunyata cables will address the final "analogue" vulnerability: the power entering the speakers' internal electronics.
KPIP v2 Processing: These cables are pre-conditioned for 4 days, which significantly reduces the traditionally long "burn-in" time for high-end power cords, meaning you should hear the benefits almost immediately.
Not an Actor, nor married to Jamie-Lee Curtis.
#1: DSP5200SE|DSW.2|218|210|506.2|504 #2: Prime/PSU|SOtM sMS-200 Mini NEO SE|Focal Stellia
I think I'm right in saying that AI (currently) just assesses what's on the internet and as more than 50% of internet users have an IQ below 100 it isn't surprising that it occasionally throws up some junk.
Last edited by Not'arf; 2026-04-1712:34.
Cinema: Meridian 271, 3 x DSP640 (behind screen), 4 x DSP320 (in-ceiling), 4 x DSP3100 (surrounds), 2 x AC12 (interface). 2 x Perlisten D12s subs, Lyngdorf MP40 processor. DT 145" 2.35 AT screen. Sony VW870 projector & S-T lens, Lumagen Radiance Pro. Lounge: Roon, NUC, Kef LS50 Wireless + 2 x REL Gibraltar-2 subs
You are correct. Unless you question the answers it tends to be a fast search engine scraper. Especially with a lot of subjective stuff.
If you ask specific question about, as an example, different types of paint that you can use as an adhesion primer. You get back a good accurate answer.
I used it to find out the process of selling my Mothers house after she goes into care, as her Power of Attorney, and what would happen if she dies before the sale is completed. It was excellent for that.
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