Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems My journey with Meridian (and Shunyata, AQVOX etc)

Exactly. That’s where the science comes in, removes the doubt...

What science are you referring to? And please see my earlier questions that I posted to you.

A scientific explanation of how a power cable changes the sound. Microphony is known but how does that pass through to the analogue side (does it actually?). What does it do to the components and how does that affect the sound.Vibration and skin effects are all well and good, was never seems to be explained is what effect that creates. Noise is mitigated. If there’s a concern about vibration, why are we spending 40k on amp boards and digital circuits that are bolted to something that vibrates for a living...

Jonn Swenson of UpTone Audio, fairly well regarded.
UpTone

I would have thought it fairly easy to devise a test to check if vibrating a cable caused any change in the sound coming out of the 'speakers. Put the 'speakers in one room, the equipment and/or cables in another isolated room and then vibrate the cables either physically or by subjecting them to local sound. An objective answer should result. Depending on the result, further investigation might, or might not, be necessary.

Perhaps I should confess to having a rational attitude in these matters.

Locus.

Naim use mechanically decoupled mains leads. They also enclose components in a faraday cage. And they mechanically isolate circuits on internal suspension. So they must think the effort is worthwhile on their top-of-the -range products.

That's not my experience with Naim amps. The ones that I owned (up to a NAP300) contained a large toroidal transformer that vibrated (hummed) pretty loudly. One of the reasons I got rid of my Naim kit.

I find it very hard to believe that tiny vibrations within cables will have any audible repercussions unless you using loosely fitting connections.

You missed out the most obvious conclusion - there is no actual measurable difference in the sound coming out of the speaker.

(Edit): I finally found what I was looking for - ASA Adjudication on The Chord Company Ltd If a cable manufacturer claims their cables 'sound better' then the least they can do is provide objective (independent) evidence.

Also see Nordost Cable demo controversy

I'm sure they look lovely. That's not the point though. The quesation is do they improve (or even change!) the sound coming out of the speakers? If so, then please provide some proof. (Obviously a 'bad' cable which is out of spec or badly made etc can have a massive effect. But I'm talking about properly made cables which meet approved specifications, which can be bought very cheaply.

See MUSINGS: Audio Cables Summary, Non-Utilitarian Functions & Scientific Falsifiability for a discussion and links to objective cable tests & measurements.

As for Ethernet cables. Either they meet the applicable standard and work or they don't and won't. Ethernet transmits data, not audio, data centres have thousands of miles of Ethernet cables. Ask yourself if there's a difference between standard Ethernet cables and 'audiophile' ones, then why don't data centres use them? Considering all the millions of miles of cheap ethernet cable used in data centres all over the world, how come the Internet works? In fact I would go as far as to say that if two ethernet cables 'sound' different then one of them is faulty because it's changing the datastream somehow. If the datastream coming out of two ethernet cables is identical then it's identical, there cannot be a difference. If there is then it still doesn't matter as each frame of data sent over Ethernet "ends with a frame check sequence (FCS), which is a 32-bit cyclic redundancy check used to detect any in-transit corruption of data". (see Wikipedia Article on Ethernet Data Frames for details. If an error is found then the data frame is resent. It's a very robust reliable system. No audiophile cables needed.

Canford Audio once demonstrated a digital audio signal being transmitted over a piece of wet string. It delivered a "locked, error-free signal" See How wet is a piece of string? for details. It's also been shown that an error free datastream can be sent over a short piece of string acting as an ethernet cable (sorry, can't find the link at the moment. EDIT: Found it, a BBC article Broadband over 'wet string' tested for fun Ok, so it was an ADSL connection not ethernet, but still, it proves a point!). Data transmission over ethernet is a mature technology, has been for years. Do you really believe that Audiophile cable companies know something about Ethernet data transmission that the likes of Cisco doesn't?

If the lesser measuring cable can be shown to transmit audio or data perfectly in a given situation, then the better one cannot be better than perfect, only more expensive.

I have absolutely no doubt that 'some' mains cables and conditioners can improve the 'quality' of electricity going into a piece of audio equipment. But that does not automatically mean that they will change the sound coming out of the equipment. If they did it would be easy to provide some verifiable and repeatable proof in the way of frequency response, S/N ratio and distortion graphs. For example, in the case of Russ Andrews mains cables proven to reduce EMI, the ASA stated that "the graphs do not prove that the rejection measured in the lab has a perceptible (i.e. audible) effect when the cables are used in a Hi-Fi or Home Cinema System". See ASA Adjudication on Russ Andrews Accessories Ltd for details.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Jeremy, but I just had to say this. It really angers me all this cable rubbish that's spouted. There is often a fine line between reality and fantasy, but when it comes to cables there's fantasy in bucketloads just looking for a gullible person to buy into.

Of course, if you prefer one cable to another and it increases your enjoyment of listening to music then that's fine by me, just don't let audio manufacturers or salesmen pull the wool over your eyes.
Ali

Back to the world of suggestibility/the abyss...

I note you have the SOtM sNH-10G, which I also took a punt on before Xmas, and I have to say it made a big difference for me. I am coming to think, as Bob Stuart suggested, everything is important, and that Meridian systems can blossom with upstream tweaks to a network.

I believe someone once suggested that two, serial 818s could be better than a sole 818. So...I am going to add more SOtM switches, but what now makes me curious is where it all starts.

Has anyone founder a modem/router they think is a step up from what they had before? Draytek has served me well, but these are strange times... could I do better?

Unless you get to experience the difference for yourself, you honestly should not dismiss it. Get an in home demo of the Shunyata equipment and see if you can hear a difference.

Measurements do not always depict what you actually hear. Just because something has a frequency response of 20 to 20000 Hz doesn't mean is sounds good.

Yes, I’m stunned by the difference a Cisco 2960 makes. Don’t know why but a commercial switch can’t afford much noise or the build up in a large group of them would be awkward. Pings really fast.

This is easier to explain than power cable though. Bob Stuart may have thought everything matters but power cables - not so much...from what he said.

As I understand it power cables can change the sound some but is all change good change? If someone put some science behind it, I would demo properly happily.

Let’s not conflate signal cables, analogue domain cables, switches etc with power cables under the everything counts mantra.

(I have a loaner Cisco switch for postage, I have several)

A pair of 5ks for £500, 6ks £2500, 7200.2 £7000? 5200SEs £5500. 861v4 £2000,

Quick reminder how much does the Shunyata gear costs?

(Cisco 2960-8TC-L (iOS 15 Catalyst) - £60, including shielded mains cable)

See here, the Cisco 2960 is discontinued.