Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems Blu Ray vs HD-DVD

Chris, you ask, "If cost to the consumer will be roughly equivalent and copyprotection/digital rights will be the same, why would a consumer chose HD-DVD over Bluray?"

Well you are too smart not to know the answer to the question you ask. Consumers would choose HD-DVD over Blu-Ray because it was available first and because it has the movies they want to see.

Chris, why don't you understand that the average person does not build his own subs, have expensive Meridian gear, and follow every twist and turn of a future, as in NOT HERE, RIGHT NOW, hi-rez video format? Enthusiast don't set the agenda for consumer electronics companies, the average future buyer does.

If the studios are split 50/50 for their preference of either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, then logically, what business that you know of which has 50% of future industry support would give that up and throw in the towel in a bid to help consumers and avoid a format "war"? I sure can't think of any. A brief digression: Why do folks call it a "war" anyway? It is just healthy marketplace competition between two differing standards. We don't call Ford, GM, and Chrysler's competition for auto sales and "auto war". So why do we call the SAC/DVD-A or HD-DVD/Blu-Ray competitions "wars"?

You fail to acknowledge my point (not that you really have to, but ignoring it makes your repetitive comments less persuasive), that once the first Blu-Ray discs are printed and in stores, that the player specification side of the hardware is essentially frozen, locked in. Sure, the recording size can and will improve, but there is no way in this world that retailers are going to stock a 25GB version of the Spiderman hi-rez disc and 100GB version of the same title. This is fundamentally different from retailers stocking a regular version of a DVD title and a Superbit version because both of these titles will play on the SAME DVD player. The 100GB player will be able to play both the 100GB and 25GB discs, but the 25GB will have no clue what to do with the 100GB disc. Retailers will not sell a disc for which they have to explain to consumers that it may or may not work in their hi-rez player that they just purchased for $400+. They don't want the headaches or the customer dissatisfaction. So, future recording size increases for Blu-Ray are great for time-shifters and archivers, but have little to no effect on the value of a Blu-Ray machines as hi-rez disc PLAYERS.

Regarding the notion of playing with semantics when you referred to Dolby Digital Lossless (which now includes Meridian MLP) as being the same as DVD-Audio and DVD-Audio 2 (which you made up and does not exist) and the mention of mandatory support of DVD-Audio on Blu-Ray, language matters and you have to always take care with what you say and how you say it. Yes, you knew what you were saying and so did John Kotches and I. However, other thread readers who are not well versed in the minutiae may not understand that you were making stuff up. They may not understand the difference between a compression algorithm and a disc format. If someone where to do a Google search on DVD-Audio 2 and came across your entry (not that I have tried this), he might honestly, but mistakenly believe that such a thing exists. More to the point he might erroneously equate a waning format like DVD-A with Blu-Ray, which might negatively affect how he perceives Blu-Ray. So please be careful how you say what you say, so as not to unintentionally spread unverifiable rumors that can confuse the discourse and muddy the playing field.

Sorry for the ad hominem, but the pressure was too great.

Damon

Who designed and put together the original DVD-Audio specification? My hope was that there would be a revision of the DVD-Audio format on Bluray to include new capabilities. In other words, the capabilities are there, but we need a revision of the DVD-audio format. The other thought is that most music companies will simply publish music as well as music videos in 5.1 Dolby Digital Lossless and 5.1 DTS Lossless and be done with it (i.e., who cares if Bluray can provide 8 channels of 24/192, we are going to continue using 24/96, 5.1 in the form of Dolby Digital Lossless and DTS Lossless).

Is anybody going to take the initiative to implement a new multichannel audio format that utilizes B+/B++ format, which sounds like what is described in the above quote. What is the future of SACD-1 and DVD-Audio? With a huge jump in storage and bandwidth, it is hard to believe that the audio industry would not have something more in store... they always have in the past. Icertainly am very happy that at the very least, we have locked in 24/96, 5.1 lossless for music and music videos in the near future. (No more Dolby Digtal 448kbps 5.1 music videos in the future.) And it looks promising that we will have Dolby Digital Lossless or DTS Lossless as the primary track on pre-recorded movies.

[This message has been edited by Health Nut (edited 03-12-2005).]

"Is anybody going to take the initiative to implement a new multichannel audio format that utilizes B-Format, which sounds like what is described in the above quote."

I'd wager that no one is going to develop a new audio format anytime soon. Just a wild guess.

I think DVD-A and SACD - as disc formats - are dead in the water and sinking fast.

What's going on with SACD-2? Not that I care since the use of digital crossover, digital room correction, etc. make PCM 'required'. What's the deal with 6 bit DSD and all that nonsense? I haven't been following DSD simpy because of it's lack of success and the fact that you need PCM for digital processing anyway. My curiousity is simply to see what SACD-2 is all about, particularly if the DVD-Audio format is not going to change.

Richard Doherty said that he expects Dolby Digital lossless specifications on Bluray to be similar to those of DTS HD (support of 8 channels). Another thought is that Bluray players will simply be able to play current DVD-Audio discs as well as play future Dolby Digital Lossless discs which could be up to 8 channels. Perhaps all you need is to include support for up to 8 channels, and the Dolby Digital Lossless "format" on Bluray is flexible enough to allow for a content provider to configure those 8 channels however they want. This is basically what we see now with DVD-Audio: companies can use those channels in a very flexible manner.

[This message has been edited by Health Nut (edited 03-12-2005).]

To the best of my memory, DSD is not a mandatory audio codec (or whatever) for Blu-ray. I also don't think Sony continues to make a dedicated SACD player. I can't imagine SACD's being out there much longer, much less that SACD-2 (whatever that is) will be introduced.

No, DSD is not mandatory, nor will it be mandatory. I've just heard that there was going to be a new version of SACD released and was curious to know what the specifications were.

So DVD-Audio and SACD are simply going to die off with Dolby Digital Lossless and DTS Lossless taking over for everything? Considering that we are talking about 8 channels of lossless 24/96 (and potentially 8 channels of 24/192 for those who care) that would simplify the market and maybe we can revitalize multichannel music under these two formats since both are mandatory in the future. Now we all know that the majority of people are happy with their cheap arse lossly MP3 stuff, but I'm not here to talk about that.

By the way, this is the current Poll on Bluray vs HD-DVD:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=483444

How Do you Feel About the Bluray vs HD-DVD Format War?

One Format Bluray 330 55.65%

One Format HD-DVD 93 15.68%

Both Bluray and HD-DVD should be released 42 7.08%

Would prefer to wait and see which is superior (price/performance) 116 19.56%

I don't care, DVD is good enough 12 2.02%

Total: 593 votes 100%

[This message has been edited by Health Nut (edited 03-12-2005).]

With 330 votes for Blu-ray, I'd say you've reached critical mass in the consumer electronics marketplace.

Anybody know of a mutual fund that invests exclusively in Blu-ray technology firms? I'd like to move my 401(k) funds before the market catches on.

Sorry Chris, I couldn't help myself.

[This message has been edited by Frank (edited 03-12-2005).]

It is at least some indicator that people recognize the technical superiority of Bluray. The people voting for HD-DVD are mostly giving reasons based on the irrational thought that Bluray = Sony. The other pro-HD-DVD thought is the thought that Bluray players and movies would cost more than HD-DVD, and there is no basis for that. Some people voted for HD-DVD one format and if allowed to take their vote back, would vote for either Bluray One Format, or, Prefer to wait and see (price/performance).

I think everybody needs to wait and see the final specifications/pricing before committing 100% to One Format, but the writing is on the wall for the success of Bluray over HD-DVD. I am very angered over the fact that I'd have to buy two players.

As mentioned above, Damon makes the analogy that it healthy competition, however, this is not a simple Ford vs GM. That is not a good analogy. One brand of truck or car can provide complete functionality. Bluray players cannot play HD-DVD and vice-versa. That would be akin to be asked to buy a Ford and GM for complete functionality. Not happening.

what chance a miracle of common sense prevailing in an industry of idiocy ??
I'll take back all (most?) of what I've said about the Evil Empire if this came true. top sony Exec. in favour of one single new format !!
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/03/24/Bluray/index.php

M

[This message has been edited by Meridialien (edited 03-24-2005).]

Thanks for the link - looks hopeful.

What is not so hopeful so far, is what is likely to be on offer. Here is one report:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=17afdf0a918292d890b6fe45d88ad526&threadid=516682

HD video is likely to have an uphill battle to be accepted anyway for the reasons -

1. Reports suggest that many who have bought into HD sets on the basis of stunning pictures in the store have felt cheated when they cannot duplicate them in their home -> black mark against HD

2. HD DVD will be initially expensive

3. Not a large proportion of the population have large enough screeens to see much advantage over SD DVD and many are uncritical of video quality in the first place

4. Many have already amassed quite a selection of DVDs and are unlikely to want to duplicate

5. Commercial pressure is limiting bandwidth (and so availability of HD) so SD is the revenue raiser in broadcasting -> less interest/knowlege about HD video

So, present the public with 2 hi-rez DVD formats and, IMO, they will stay away in droves.

The situation here in Australia is that there is not much genuine HD being broadcast. A SD PAL digital signal can be very impressive and we are very pleased with the video quality here via a Barco VSE40 quadrupler -> Barco 808s projector -> 96" screen, with Meridian manged audio of course :-) So, I'm losing interest in HD TV full stop. Let them come out with 2 hi-rez DVD formats and I'll lose interest completely.

Sadly, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion it is not all about giving the consumers a higher quality video (which, without a huge investment in promotion they will not know they want), it is about copy protection, royalties and a better control over consumers with more effective (for them) regional coding. This "better" regional coding could be enough to turn me away even if only one format.

Apologies if I've said some of this before & am repeating the cry of others, but the industry does appear a bit thick at times. I posted awhile ago on the AVS forum that instead of cheering on Bluray, the guys there should lobby for one format. This did not go down well with accusations of negativity etc dominating responses. My difficulty with such hip=hip hooraying to Sony et al about Bluray is that those companies put on their blinkers and extrapolate the AVS views to be that of the general population.

Sad

John

I came across this page in my travels.

http://www.ce.org/publications/vision/2005/marapr/p08.asp


Apologies if it has already been posted I'm in a rush and dont have time to check all the posts.

Very interesting and sad at the same time. First thing that popped into my mind is its all very well having 10 times the capacity providing its not used with forced promos and other garbage. And 10 times the contents does what to the price point exactly ?? I would not be so keen on my hobby if discs cost the same as Ps2 games for example.

regards,
M