Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems Blu Ray vs HD-DVD

Jim,
With regard your comments on the apparent improvements in redbook performance on Patricia Barber SACDs I did a quick search & turned up this review:
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/reviews/review.asp?reviewnumber=53985

It seems that the redbook layer is from a new remastering and this has resulted in audible difference/improvement v the original CD - although this obviously has little or nothing to do with DSD.

I wonder on how many SACDs the redbook layer is better simply as a result of remastering (the only reason it can be?)?

Your points re DVD-A video are well taken - although with my smartlink 598/861 combo I have not found the need to turn on a display to get access to the multi-channel hi-rez track.

& I agree dual-disk isn't the answer.

Hopefully we'll eventually get a hi-rez (PCM ;> ) replacement via a consolidated hi-def/hi-rez & truely versatile disk...

Paul.

P.S. I'm still enjoying vinyl.


[This message has been edited by Paulmcc (edited 02-19-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Paulmcc (edited 02-19-2005).]

This has already been discussed with HD-DVD camp pricing being $5-$10 more than the DVD version. Obviously, Bluray movies would be using the the same pricing structure becasue I think all studios are thinking about the same on this matter ($5-10 premium over DVD, at least initially for x amount of years).

For me, I can justisfy purchasing Bluray movies (ignoring the word HD-DVD purposefully because I have no intention of supporting two formats) as long as they are new releases and I'm not paying to go to the movie theater. In other words, I put the price of a couple movie tickets toward the purchase of a Bluray movie. I rarely go to commecial theaters unless it is something like Star Wars Episode III or Gladiator, in which case I simply get too excited. So for me, I'll do the same thing with Bluray that I do with DVD and buy all the good titles, particularly any new movies I've never seen before, even if they are only mediocre, just because I prefer to watch them on my theater.

Bluray 1080p resolution and 1080p digital projectors will allow for much larger projector screen sizes, so that will likely fuel my desire to purchase Bluray movies as agressively as I have purchased DVD's over the past 6 years. One of my attendings just purchased a 3 chip DLP with incredible amount of lumens and a 200 inch screen, so I'll be anxious to see that! I look forward to taking advantage of the resolution that Bluray offers by boosting screen size to at least 140-160 inch diagonal, perhaps larger with constant height,etc... Looking forward to summer of 2006 God willing!! Hopefully we will get a good variety of 1080p projectors by then.


Certainly. With the convenience and ability to make samplers with CD, rip your CD's lossless to computer media players like J Rivers Media Center, moving to SACD/DVD-Audio was already too constrained. No digital outputs except in $40,000+ front ends... And then to have this niche market divided on top of that frustration with no digital rights? I absolutely live for multichannel music and I write emails to hearts of Space, and various lables encouraging artists to RECORD in multichannel. But even with so much enthusiasm, there is just so little DVD-audio 'software'. Quite frankly, the vast majority of my music is only available on CD, and I absolutely love playback with J Rivers Media Center. What a dissapointment with DVD-Audio (did someone even mention SACD? Bwaaah.)

Would be great if we could have options up to 8 channel 24/192 MLP with DVD-audio. Does anybody claim to hear any difference between 24/96 and 24/192? Apparently Bluray supports 24/192 6 channel PCM, and 24/96 8 channel PCM... but who is going to release music master quality unencrypted PCM? What is the future of high resolution multichannel audio now that Bluray is coming soon? (don't answer this unless you take into consideration the audio codec choices have not been finalized yet).

[This message has been edited by Health Nut (edited 02-19-2005).]

Paul,

Thanks for the info. Makes sense now why the SACD redbook layer sounds better. I still buy SACD just for the redbook layer, because it is that good. Many of my DVD-A titles require me to turn on TV though, pressing play just doesn't work as you need to navigate the menu with the remote. My biggest complaint is still the delay between tracks, or when I switch tracks the surround preset is lost. Not so on CD/SACD though. I use a 598/568.2, which doesn't allow for any delay. Same on DVD-V, if I change the surround mode too early (before movie actually starts) the many menus and previews disrupt my settings and I find myself listening to the default setting again. Not sure if Meridian has a fix for the 568.2, but it would definately be helpful. Of course I could change my default preset, however some movies I watch in THX, some not. Some DVD-A's I listen to in DTS Music, some just plain ole DTS.

Cheers, Jim

Of course I will hope that Bluray will be the next thing, mainl because of its bigger storage capability.

However it is picture and sound quality that counts, and I am sure that with the modern video codecs available today that 30Gigs is sufficient to produce a very decent HD transfer.

It is not just storage capacity. Bluray is significantly more capable all the way around: 25 and 50 GB discs with the potential to reach 100 and 200 GB. Bandwidth of Bluray greater than HD-DVD and already slated to reach twice the bandwidth of HD-DVD (reaching 72 Mbps and potentially higher). Recording capacity that with 50 GB now and will reach 100 GB, and a prototype of 200 GB is in the lab. Then you have 10X times LESS power requirements for recording for Bluray which is huge for portable recording. It would be great to see one superior format (Bluray) succeed in ALL markets (games, computers, music, movies, etc..) like DVD has done.

I really hope Bluray adopts MLP as mandatory. Can someone explain what the deal is with HD-DVD and only 2 channel MLP mandatory?

Also, can somebody explain the process of how MLP shaves off bits or something like that when bandwidth exceeds 10 mbit/sec? How often does MLP have to 'shave bits' during a typical multichannel 24/96 DVD-Audio? How audible is this? What is the future of MLP if Bluray adopts MLP as mandatory? Can we re-define DVD-Audio with more channels (Chesky 2+2+2 with center/height channels, etc..) each with up to 24/192 capability? Personally I'm more concerned about getting more channels, and that 24/96 is all we need. I know Bob Katz who records for Chesky always mentioned he'd prefer to use a center channel in addition to 2+2+2, but DVD-Audio is limited in nuumber of channels. I'd like to see that limitation removed with Bluray. What do you think about the future of multichannel music? For one, I'm hoping for 24/96 multichannel music in compbination with 1080p for music videos.

[This message has been edited by Health Nut (edited 02-20-2005).]

Chris,

You say it's not just storage capacity. Then in the very next sentence you go on to talk about storage capacity!

Consider a point that I've made earlier in this thread. Once a Blu-Ray movie disc arrives in stores at 25GB and X bandwidth, it would be a marketing nightmare (for the format) and a stock keeping nightmare (for retailers) to have that same movie or even different movies come out on 50GB discs with 2X bandwidth. How would the studios/retailers accurately let consumers know that if they have an older Blu-Ray player, that they can't purchase that new or remastered movie with the 50GB, 2X bandwidth disc? We've all seen how lousy they were at explaining SACD and DVD-A to consumers and those were completely *different* formats, not variations of the same format!

As I said before, Hollywood is stupid, but they are not that stupid. I don't see this scenario happening. What I do see happening is that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are locked in to whatever format and specifications they have at launch for the forseeable future with regard to pre-recorded movies and the like. If this is the case, it may be to the Blu-Ray group's advantage to wait until the higher bandwidth, 50GB specifications are readily available to market to consumers. If they were to come up with slightly better picture quality (I can't really see Blu-Ray "blowing away" HD-DVD in terms of quality) but more importantly HD upconverted or other high quality extras, this may allow Blu-Ray to jump ahead of HD-DVD in the perceived value equation to consumers and allow it to win in the marketplace.

Now, the player makers are free to innovate and add the latest specs to their player/recorders as the Blu-Ray technical folks roll them out, but this will only, I believe, have an impact on computer and home recording, not on pre-recorded discs.

Damon

That's because it isn't just about storage capacity, it is about bandwidth and recording capability as well (particularly the 10X lower power requirements which will benefit portable recording). I wrote the same thing twice before.


First generation players will play 25 and 50 GB BDROM's, so if a studio comes out with a 50 GB version later with better audio/video/extras, it would be nothing more than what we see wtih DVD today with multiple versions of the same movie coming out year after year... The bandwidth of first generation Bluray players is 54 Mbit/sec, which is 1.5X that of HD-DVD. Bluray 2.0 is supposed to have 72 Mbit/sec (2.0X bandwidth of HD-DVD). Sure the potential of Bluray can go even higher, but I don't see that as a bad thing. Worry about that when the time comes... at least the capability is higher now *and* in the future.



The bandwidth of 54 mbit/sec already exceeds anything proposed for pre-recorded movies: hell, we could use 20 mbit/sec VC-1 video and 20 mbit/sec multichannel audio simultaneously and still have 14 Mbit/sec left over... In any case, it's nice to not have to worry about bandwidth limitations, and bandwdth will definitely be better for every other utility such as recording/playback, games, etc...

Anyway 25 and 50 GB are both readily available at the time of releae of Bluray. As you know, 50 GB BDROM recordable has been out for some time. R Doherty has stated that both the 25 and 50 GB BD ROM will be available upon start of the Bluray format release.


I agree that it is difficult to make any changes once the first generation players are released, although DTS wasn't in many products until second generation. In any case, even first generation Bluray players will support 50 GB record/playback as well as 54mbit/sec bandwidth.

[This message has been edited by Health Nut (edited 02-20-2005).]

Chris,

You're quite ahead of yourself when talking about the potential of 100 and 200GB media, which might well turn out to be incompatible with 1st gen consumer players. It's too early to speculate on these when it's nothing more than a theoretical possibility that very well might require a player upgrade to access.

Also, the problem when you get too large a committee designing something is that the solution is typically riddled with compromises.


For HD-DVD, the goal is to support a simple to implement stereo only player. Mixes can be from 1 to N channels (currently defined as 7.1 maximum) but that can be amended and MLP has plenty of room to grow, with current MLP specifications maxing out at 64 channels @ 24/192K.

All they (HD-DVD working group) have done is define that any player has to support stereo playback via whatever mix is provided.


A few points to make here. First, the 10 Mbits/second limit is strictly a DVD-Video limitation. If memory serves me correctly, the audio channel limitations are somewhere in the vicinity of 20 Mbits/second. I don't have the specs right in front of my nose.

You need to read up on MLP to understand the concept of feed forward and store. MLP is quite capable of feeding forward audio data in advance of its usage so that a momentary shortfall is handled by passing the data ahead of needs and playing back to make up for the short fall.

Others that now far more about MLP than I do have written papers on the topic, or you can read a back issue of WSR where I have written about MLP or check Secrets where Stacey and Don Munsil have written about MLP.


I think the big thing is that Meridian will almost certainly recoup the R&D costs that it has incurred as it carries forward to the next generation formats.

This could lead to further R&D cycles to include more capability.


No. DVD-Audio is specifically tied to the DVD-Video format.

For next generation optical solutions, there won't be a DVD-Audio to speak of.

That said, the last thing I want, is a continuation of what I referred to as "Speaker Babylon" in an article at Secrets.

There are two distinct 2+2+2 configurations, not to mention the Telarc height channel.

Chesky's 2+2+2 is front height, MDG/Tacet are front/side/back L/R channels. Both of these give us all the flaws of traditional 2-channel reproduction with respect to phantom center, comb filtering etc etc etc, only they've created it across more speakers. Perpetuating the same type of mistake across more degrees of freedom is not my idea of progress.

Then there's the Telarc height setup, which utilizes a single height channel, which is shared with the subwoofer channel. Low-pass below 120Hz is the subwoofer output, High-pass above 120 Hz is the height channel which is to be reproduced with a pair of dipolar loudspeakers above the primary listening position.

Arrrrgggh. This is why standardization is important.


Why do you continue to impose DVD-Video limitations on audio tracks that don't exist for HD-DVD? The limit for HD-DVD is currently 7.1, and the potential for even more is a function of specification amendments.


You won't get this for quite a while, as the stuff thats in field is still 24/48K for this type of work. Maybe in 3-4 years, but that's a long shot.

1080p + MC surround for music videos is (IMO) 5-10 years away at the earliest due to the dearth of 1080p gear. Maybe film to 1080p, but I doubt it.

Cheers,

Fantastic discussion guys. I find myself nodding my head when I read Damon's and Mark's comments. My take: you've stated the state of the marketplace very well. I am sure the studios/ CE companies know this too. So what inspires them to make these new formats? My guess is they want more copy protection and they want to sell it in the guise of: new and improved. I just don't see the market for it. However, as a tech-nut (like many here) I would love to see it take off.

I want to add: why doesn't the industry just let Meridian pick the formats (video & audio)? We'd get great results and no format war!

Best regards,
Jerry

[This message has been edited by JerryL (edited 02-22-2005).]

Ok Meridian and MLP fans, Chalk up another point for reasons to support One Format Bluray and to 'boycott' HD-DVD (for the purpose of achieving one Format ASAP)

"...Dolby Digital lossless (formerly called MLP)..."

Did Meridian sell its MLP technology to Dolby?

Perhaps they're just going through a rename to get a more recognized name out there?

I haven't heard anything from the usual suspects, but I imagine I might in the next few days.

Best Regards,