Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion HiFi & HT Chat The Old Snake Oil topic

Steve, and the other scenario

I was ready and willing to spend money and didn't. That's a weird one and was what I found when I demo'd cables.

Eh? Sorry but that makes no sense at all. I wasn't demming them, I'd already bought them, and now I'm prepared to give them away free (i.e. losing money) because they sounded worse. Then I'm spending more money, shortly, on more expensive versions of the Yello power because they sound better.

It's interesting that certain people are making assumptions without having actually carried out the listening tests themselves, but then that was the original thrust of this thread, wasn't it? Belief vs actual experience?

Subconsciously, you didn't really want to spend the money...

Steve

I done the tests, albeit not blind and with a friends RA cables.

I don't believe they made any difference and so my belief and experience are the same.

I don't feel the need to waste any more time revisiting that experiment.

YMMV, vive la diff�rence, etc.

Yes, but as I pointed out, I am now spending more money than originally intended. At the same time I've said the free cords sounded better than the ones I bought. So which is it? You can't have it both ways unless I'm a subconsciously highly confused individual. That may be the case, but again you're only making blind assumptions, now in two ways, as you've neither carried out the same listening tests, nor subjected me to any kind of psychological evaluation. You might find out I'm a very rational individual with good, trained, ears (I was an opera singer in my youth, in fact), or a complete fruit loop. Right now though, the point is you have literally no idea, so you're relying on blind belief that all difference in cables 'must' be expectation bias, whereas I'm the one sitting here with cables I'm actually evaluating.

FWIW, I wish they didn't make any difference, and if they did I wish the Belden ones were great as they're much cheaper than the RA ones (I've also tried other, more expensive) ones in the past which we're not as good, by the way). I have no desire to spend money any more than I have to, and the more expensive RA ones are also a pain because they use Teflon and are rather inflexible. Unfortunately, I've found they do sound better, and this has only served to reinforce that finding.

Why not actually try some (I'll send you the Belden ones, if you wish)? It'll be an interesting experiment in expectation bias, if you are tied to believing this must apply here, since I'm assuming you don't believe there can be a difference, and also to whether you'd admit, even to yourself, if you did. Personally, I would guess expectation bias applies more to those who are totally convinced, and blindly believe (sometimes almost religiously), there can be no possible difference between two things than someone with an open mind, but then I'm not a psychologist and have never carried out research in the field, and certainly not within how auditory perception might be shaped by complex economic vs desire vs belief factors, etc. Without actual controlled experiments, it would all be just hot air.

You don't believe they made any difference? Sounds like expectation bias

Sorry but it's just struck me how nonsensical that is - you don't believe they make a difference, then listened to some and believed they didn't, and proved it? I.e.,You're arguing that it's all expectation bias, but you apparently decided that expectation bias doesn't apply to you (i.e. that your expectation they wouldn't work didn't affect your listening tests proving they didn't)?

Now I'm really confused.

I listened (a long time ago), didn't hear any difference (back then) and because of that, I now don't believe they make a difference.

Is that clearer?

Expectation bias applies to me just as much as everyone else, no denying that.
Being an electronics engineer for years probably makes me less likely to believe what manufacturers say and look for reasons why these should make a difference.

I'm not questioning that you hear a difference, just why or how you do.

Some cables do make a difference, but this is a measurable characteristic and in the case of power cables, if there is a difference it means either the cable or the equipment isn't fit for purpose. Oscilloscopes don't have any bias.

It wouldn't be so bad if it was just a case of DIY experimenting and fun in a hobby, but the likes of RA selling �3.5K 1m power cables just takes the piss.

You seem to be getting quite worked up by this?
If you are happy with the results, however they get into the brain, real or imagined, then just sit back and enjoy them.

OK, so have you specifically measured power cables looking for factors such as RFI rejection, etc? I posted a link to actual measurements from research earlier in the thread if you care to look. The cables in question I've been listening to are all of rather different designs, so I'm not sure why you find it so hard to believe there could be some difference?

Just to be clear on pricing, since you mention DIY and �3.5K cables, the cables which came with the speakers were free, I prefer these to the Belden cable which cost me approximately �30 (I already owned the plugs) I prefer these least, the Yello power cost me about �50 or so about 12 years ago, I prefer these most overall. You might also note that I didn't do a quick comparison and say one was better or worse, I took weeks to evaluate and gave quite detailed impressions (e.g. the Belden was more detailed in the bass, etc.), which doesn't quite fit with an expectation bias theory.

I don't find it so surprising that it's irritating to be told that I'm basically a gullible idiot, who's being conned into buying things I don't need, because you believe that I can't be hearing a difference. You are saying I'm not hearing a difference - belief and actually hearing something are two different things.

The other thing I find irritating is lay psychology being expounded in these cases. Using these kinds of theory in this manner is, at best, speculative pseudo science - in order to genuinely assess what you're suggesting, you would have to carry out a thorough, controlled series of tests (by someone who's actually qualified in psychology) into how suggestible, or not, I am, among other things, including testing the cables, conducting listening and electronic tests on my specific system in my room with my mains supply, etc., etc. simply to drop in and blanket state it must be expectation bias is meaningless.

I've not carried out specific tests on power cables; why would I need to?
50 Hz down a bit of copper rated to carry the current and insulated for the 240v; not exactly rocket science to understand what is happening in the cable.
If RFI is a problem, then the fault is with the equipment; it should be immune to this.

Again, they made no difference to me. I'm not saying there is no difference for you.

Again, if you are happy with the results, however they get into the brain, real or imagined, then just sit back and enjoy them.

It's your money to do with as you wish.

OK, fair enough, I already am enjoying them, and was merely posting my results for the interest of others, as well as offering some free cables if anyone else was interested in having a play.

Again, isn't it an assumption that there's nothing to it, and it's not rocket science, without testing to see whether certain, more subtle aspects might make a difference, as others have?

Many people once believed similar things about digital reproduction, it was all just 1s and 0s, until others, who were hearing differences, investigated why and we discovered that jitter, and the accuracy of clocking, etc, do make an audible difference.

Without that open minded approach and a willingness to experiment, we'd all be worse off, IMO.