Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion HiFi & HT Chat The Old Snake Oil topic

I can't believe it makes any difference.

By pure chance I was flicking through one of the lovely HiFi Choice "Collection" magazines last night and the editor (Alan Sircom) said that in his own system, power cables used came "from the nearest kettle". Amen to that.

As I think VK once said on a similar subject, "life's too short".

What's interesting is that this whole debate is about beliefs more than experiences. I don't think it should make a difference therefore I am in that camp. I think it does make a difference so I am in that other camp.

What I found interesting with the blog link I opened with was that the whole story there was based on experience that struggled to find the right theory.

i.e. here is some difference and I don't really know why.

Based on what data - subjective listening tests or measurements? I'm not sure I would trust either from a source with invested commercial interests regarding cables.

Like most hifi tweaks, there's simply a lack of hard data. The only vaguely scientific studies I have seen are blind listening tests with and without expensive power cords in which listeners failed to detect any SQ difference. While such studies suggest any differences are very small, they are far from perfect or conclusive.

With respect to power delivery, I�m surprised the likes of Paul McGowan haven�t analysed the output of a hifi unit�s PSU with and without upmarket power cords attached. I would love to see e.g. a comparison of a G68�s power supply performance (noise etc.) in such tests. If electrical interference reduction is the main benefit then the positioning of �normal� cables should be critical and moving them in close proximity to sensitive cables, kit etc should have an impact of SQ � again no studies that I�m aware of.

I remain open minded but sceptical in the light of what data are available.

Yes, the other thing which seems to happen is that when data is presented, people who believe 'it can't make a difference' carry on as though it hasn't. The Ben Duncan paper has objective measurements. The debate should therefore rationally shift to 'OK, so they do make a difference, but is that difference audible/worthwhile', etc.

I do find it slightly odd that suddenly huge amounts of hard data are required in a hobby where every other analysis of equipment we decide to buy, or live with, comes from our subjective impressions through the protruberances on the side of our heads. Did any of us objectively measure, say, an MS600 against an 818 before we parted with cash? Were we suddenly ridiculed, or almost crucified for not having done this? Almost every thread on this forum is filled with subjective feelings about equipment, totally unsupported by any data at all, yet accepted without any recourse to such. Very strange that cables should produce such a strong emotional reaction, if you ask me - what's so threatening about the idea they can sound different? It's as though one is questioning a religious belief...

Personally, I'd say the same as I say about any other cable - some 'designs' (which are really only using standard geometry, etc., with a fancy sleeve on) won't make much of a difference, but others, which attempt to address specific problems through a radically different design to ordinary twin-core and earth) might well (not neccessarily better though, that's in the ear of the beholder).

In the case of the RA cables, they have a 60 day money back guarantee. I liked the difference I heard in my system, so I kept them. If you don't hear a difference, you can send them back. You can't say fairer than that!

Do remember, while discussing this, there are people out there who swear blind that all amplifiers sound the same...

Ummm, yes Planning for MS600 818v2 comparison

Russ

That's not about measuring, it's about listening.

True

But when I am listening I am measuring the differences I can hear so as to make a buying decision.

Russ

I always find the following quote from Robert Harley's interview with Bob Stuart very interesting. In the same interview there is a lot of very relevant information with regard to human fallibility when it comes to listening tests.

"We designed about 12 filters that measured the same but sounded different from each other."

I'm happy for anything to make a difference, and am also happy for things to make a difference even if the measurements don't show it. (Logically there is no problem with that.)

My biggest problem with things like expensive cables, is that often the money would be much better spent on something else, like room treatments for example. How many people fix their rooms before upgrading their cables? Very few, I'm sure: because its much sexier to buy a gorgeous cable than put glorified egg boxes all over the walls...

Agreed, the effect, when present, is 'icing on the cake', although it can be very nice, smooth, gooey icing! But yes, definitely get the equipment sorted first.

Oddly enough RA has a range of totally free advice in the little booklets. Much of it does not require any purchase from his company, even in terms of getting the mains sorted, and there is a whole booklet on improving the listening room which is a worthwhile read, as it advocates getting good sound without making your living room look like a recording studio.

Having tried most of the tips, I can say from experience that much of it made a difference, but it is suck it and see, because e.g., if your mains earthing already happens to be good, working on it will show little benefit. If on the other hand there was a problem with it, you'll notice a good improvement?

I believe the booklets are still available.

BTW I love that Bob Stuart interview, it's one of the most interesting articles on audio I've ever read.

Nick; you say that as if it's a surprise. Most beliefs are based on previous experiences. None of us are 11 years old; we've been through X years and probably been surprised less often with each passing year as our experience makes us (generally) better as getting things right / not being surprised too often.

I think cables may make a difference but it's a bit like weather forecasts these days. Is they say it will be dry tomorrow it almost certainly will be, and if it does rain then you can be pretty sure that there wont be much rain. Cables may make a difference but I'd be very surprised if it made much of a difference and do I want to spend $$$ and X hours researching / trying / returning various cables until I'm happy? No, I do not, life's too short but I fully understand that others want to chase down that final 1%, and good luck to them.

HiFi+ many years ago did an "objective" cable test with ~ 6 cables from fairly modest to fairly astronomical. I think it may have been a blind test, from memory. They went through the results and said that one of the expensive ones didn't do as well as expected as the system used didn't suit it. No such excuses were used / needed for the cheap cables.

Yes, yes + yes.

Basic things like different resistance of "heavy" wires and other very basic reasons(thinking here only straight). But really important are the dynamics terms for me, that the main reason for the purpose/usage of a power-cables.

What? For example in a amplifier (just to get the idea):
To hear music, the electrical current have to flow in circle-close loop. The current flows from the power supply through the amplifier electronics to the speaker and back into the power supply.

The internal resistance of the power supply is a (the) major part of the current in that chain. The transformer is a part of the power supply and the current in the transformer is determined of the main voltage.

The whole mains have a complex resistance(a power source) what "feed" the transformer/power supply of the amp.
So when the complex resistance(impedance) of the mains are different, finally the current through the amp and the current through the speaker (or output-stage) is different-and finally the sound.

That explains why the last meter (seen from the power plant) could be important and not all the hundreds Km before-because the power supply "see" the first meter and "then" the several hundreds Km afterwards.
Or to say it in technical terms, if the power-cord determines the complex resistance (like Ohms resistance, capacity, inductivity) then you have a different power source (the mains) that the power supply will see, or simply saying you have a "different" power source.

Another reason are the voltage fluctuations on the mains. But how can that "minor" influences/distortion in the mains could be hearable or important? For example you have 240VAC and a fluctuation of 100mV(0.1 VAC). That is a fraction, its a ratio of 1 to 2400- and that could be hearable?
Yes, when you talking of dB (where all measurements are published), then that value is 67dB. That is a hearable value.

There are so many theories published that I finally give up and just --- see below.

Yes, it's in our heads, and that is a problem with every kind of "change".
You only can try yourself and try to keep ALWAYS your mind open, then your are on the right way but it's not easy. So I learned not thinking to much about new things, just to try it out. One good test is also to change something and invite a friend for a listening of a (for example) new record and do not tell him what you have done. When he ask later on why it's sounds different (hopefully better) then you know it wasn't jus in your head...

And finally YOU decide how much you will pay for that change in sound...

Robert