Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems Discussion on effects of upsampling and apodising

G997,

I have just re-read a few times your sweeping stereo-typing comment about nationalities and locations and specifically UK based HHers. I had to figure out how on earth you think nationalities become relevant to this at all.

Have a read of Rule #1 on the board.

I'll try to keep to the original point of discussing upsampling and apodising. Yes, to my ears the Meridian implementation of these two features does apear to loose some of the air and ambience from the music. However, the more I listen, the more I become unsure if what I'm listening for is a factor of digital pre-ringing that I've just got totally accustomed to? It's not easy to test for as even a fairly good vinyl system playing A-A-A analogue recordings lacks the signal to noise ratio to really portray these subtle HF cues.
Now, at 60yrs of age,my HF hearing is obviously reduced, and yet, when recently asked to review a headphone amp for a designer prior to release, I could immediately spot without being told that the frequency range was limited above 20kHZ by design. So I believe that signals well above the normal hearing range still have an effect (harmonics I assume?) much lower in the frequency range.
So what is correct? I place a great deal of belief in Bob Stuarts understanding of psycho-accoustics and I can only suggest that anyone who hasn't to date, takes the time to read some of his AES papers (by the way, can anyone name me any other designer of audio equipment who has been made a Fellow of the AES?). I liked his comment in the TAS interview with Robert Harley regarding apodising.
"Once you�ve listened to a CD played back like this and then go back to a conventional filter, even a very good one, you hear sparkle and glare in the recording. While working on this we used a recording of choral music made in one of Cambridge�s chapels. I know the sound of the chapel well. In the silences between the singing, the soundfield was sparkling like it was phosphorescing because of the pre-ringing. The sound is almost a caricature, as though someone took a pencil and drew a hard line around every acoustic object."
So perhaps we've just become too accustomed to hearing the "sparkle and glare" and think we're missing something when it's gone.

Points well made. I wonder if you would correlate the "air and ambience" that you hear with the "sparkle and phosphorescence" that Bob noted in the silence of the chapel recording?

The issue most of us have (and some noted it well earlier e.g. Not being sure what a drum should actually sound like) is that we can only compare x to y. We don't know which is the truth...x or y.

Bob makes reference to the actual chapel of said recording. That is a step further than many of us get. So, it comes down to preference and the amount of time we give to adjust to what we here.

Things that are night and day different immediately and not guaranteed to be better in the long run when various things happen with one's hearing.

My experience tells that I make some changes to my system and they are keepers; other changes I adjust or remove altogether.

Has anyone measured the output of the Meridian apodising filter compared to the previous linear filter or other filters to objectively compare their frequency response? That might be one way to understand how much of the reduction of ambiance is indeed pre-ringing reduction or high frequency response reduction. From what I've read (not much), like other aspects of audio design, there is no free lunch with filter design. It's about trade offs.

My opinion on this debate:

Like pretty much every other digital company out there, Meridian has their opinion on the best way to engineer a digital filter and the related sonic "flavour". Most claim their approach is the most "neutral" and "realistic", however since they all sound different it's pretty tough to conclude that most of them achieve that goal. It is more likely that they achieve the designer's sonic vision. In the end, it all comes down to personal preference of the listener and system comparability. Some will like the resulting sound (it seems Meridian has done some testing in this regard by what others have said here) and others won't.

My ask of Meridian:

Don't force all Sooloos system lovers into using Meridian filters and DACs. Include the option of using a HIGH QUALITY, CLEAN digital output to an outboard DAC of our choosing. I capitalized some words here because I realize it is possible to bypass the up-sampling apodising filter now, but the resulting sound quality from my MC200 with this option is quite poor.

Thanks!

Hi the MC200 is somewhat compromised in having the hard drives etc. built in. To get a higher quality signal you should get a home demo of a MS200 and use it to feed your DAC, or if you can stretch to it try a MS600.

I too would welcome more options from M but that said I'm very happy with the sound of my system.

Regards,
Carl

It might sound strange but the best sound I've gotten from a Sooloos digital out is from the Ensemble (for some reason it sounded better than even the MS600's digital output with my DAC). Going to try a Source One as an endpoint next week to see how that works as an audio endpoint with my MC200.

There are some measurements in John Atkinson's review of the 808.2

http://www.stereophile.com/content/...rence-cd-playerpreamplifier-measurements

According to those results there is no problem with frequency response.

Unfortunately John did not measure the phase response. There are published simulations of phase response but links to that site are not allowed on this forum

Well my system with the MC200 sounds BLOODY BRILLIANT to my ears. Yes I know it could all be better and one day it will be but I have never had such easy access to all my music with sound quality well up, if not better than my 596, and as such I listen to so much more music.

System symmetry can often be overlooked which will lead to unfair criticism of individual components. Again the Hot Rod approach comes to mind. The boy racer who ups his engine then moans on about how bad the suspension and brakes are on his/her car.

In the finish you need a symbionic system however you achieve it, and its no use criticising something that is out of its intended context.

Meridians recommended context is clear. Thoughts, Chris

I agree completely, listen to much more music now that I don't have to scrounge through a drawer of CDs.

Obviously sounds better than something I didn't use.

Neil

Well I have gone from 5ks + MS600 to 5.2ks + MC200 and unfortunately the difference is night and day. My old system was much better! I will defo be purchasing the MS200 when it comes out - at that price point it is a no-brainer. That should tide me over until I can justify an 818

Hi Boru,

So is that one of the New MC200 Version 2's that you are using??

i.e. the one with a 1Tb Drive and New Sound Card?

It is indeed! I sold my MD600/MS600 to move to an MC200/MS200 combo, and use the spare cash to upgrade my speakers. I also needed my store to be co-located in my listening room as I'm moving house, and the fan noise in the MD600 was just too irritating.