|
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 272
Hitchhiker
|
|
Hitchhiker
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 272 |
Im going to bite on this.
Obviously if you stripped the engine down then found a secret part/method then published details of this, then this would be different, but this is not what engine modification is all about. Its about taking what you have and tweaking it to make it more to your liking. Ian, That was a big bite. In general, I agree on all except the above. If you found the secret part/method on the car it is yours for the taking. Unless it's patented of course. And in the patent you are required to give up the "secret" for long term protection. This is by American patent law and patent laws vary from country to country. The developer here has one year to file a patent or his intelectual property is gone forever. The standard non-medical patent will expire in twenty years. The developer can opt to keep it secret but is at risk if others can find the non patented secret. Regards, Gary
My Kit: Trinnov Altitude 32,Oppo BDP 203, Sony 600es, Martin Logan Neoliths Mains with VTL Siegfried II's, ML CLX's, ML Renaissance, 5 ML Theaters,13 ML Vanquish, 6 ML Edges, 6 ML Axis' 8 Velodyne DD-18+'s, Pass Labs 600.8,Pass Labs 160.8, Pass labs 160.5, Bryston 14B-SST, 6B-SST,6 Bryston 9BSST^2's, 14' Stewart Screen, Berkely Alpha DAC RS
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,821 Likes: 94
Great Green Arkleseizure
|
|
Great Green Arkleseizure
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,821 Likes: 94 |
Thank you Ian, as a "Numpty" I was confused but I am now confused at "A much higher level". It seems there is a high degree of polarisation on this subject which benefits no one. Ian your arguments are convincing. My confusion is about the future relationship of this forum with M. I am sure the majority of members hope that communications improve (IMHO going in the right direction) and I can see that many members do not appreciate the detremental actions of others. By association with this forum we benefit hugely from the experience and knowledge of others, however if owners wish to modify equipment hardware or software/fimware this is their choice but please have due deference to other members who may not appreciate the consequences of your shared actions. Published experiences of hardware modifications are extremely interesting. WelwynNick is addressing a real reliability issue albeit with advised SQ improvements on power supplies (never hear of a 500 series PS failure). Independant Software/Firmware mods appear to be entirely different with a huge negative effect on the credibility of us all. Appologies for any offence taken from the "Numpty" view.
AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD. DINING: MS600, AC200, DSP5200SEUG. STUDY 504, Roon Nucleus + RevB, 808v6, 5200SE, Mac & PC (Touch Screen), Prime+PS Grado GS1000i HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys, iPad Mini A capella to Zydeco
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 531
Paranoid android
|
|
Paranoid android
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 531 |
Maybe the answer is a separate forum or similar relating to M tweaking that avoids this one offending M or those that don't agree with tweaking.
Avii
Life but not as we know it...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,560 Likes: 1
Working on the ultimate question
|
|
Working on the ultimate question
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,560 Likes: 1 |
I see reference to modifying car engines and hardware mods being OK but software mods not OK.
As far as car engines go there are manufacturers of computer tools to modify engine software. Nothing ilegal there.
Erwin created a tool to let you modify your hardware. Nothing wrong with that. IMHO
HT: 568.2mm (Revelation One filter), 518x2, SB3, Bryston 7BSTx3, 8BST, Aerial 10T, CC3, SW12(Qty2) w/SVS AS-EQ1, MK Tripole x4. JVC RS1u, DVDO Duo, Oppo 103 w/Vanity103HD, Sony PS3, VIP 3D Theatre, Acer H5360. Logitech Ultimate Remote and Hub.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,606
Great Green Arkleseizure
|
|
Great Green Arkleseizure
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,606 |
I had this long post typed in and realized it didn't make much sense. It did take up a lot of screen real estate and looked like a really nifty combination of black text on a white background The heart of the matter is that there are many here who have purchased second hand and without a factory warranty. Many don't have dealer relationships to fall back on which makes the ability to legitimately obtain the factory software difficult at best. If Erwyn's code is a unique implementation and doesn't rely on any of Meridian's IP (I have no idea) then does Meridian have a say? I see it as no different than installing a new OS on an out of warranty computer -- nothing more nothing less. If, on the other hand, Erwyn's implementation is not unique that's another matter entirely. Perhaps I'm oversimplifying this, it certainly would not be the first time I've done so.
Last edited by John Kotches; 2011-12-03 12:02.
Surround Music Fan/Computer Geek/Curmudgeon in training. --- 861v4, HD621, Panasonic BD-P55K, Toshiba HD-A35, Oppo HD990, Dish Network 622, Pioneer DV-668AV-S w/ DVD Upgrades mod, EW Fontaine II (x5), Velodyne DD-15 (x2), Seymour AV Ice blocks (x7)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,560 Likes: 1
Working on the ultimate question
|
|
Working on the ultimate question
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,560 Likes: 1 |
As for Erwin wanting to charge �299 for an apodising filter for Meridians processors, this goes even further as not only has the license agreement been breached, there is financial gain involved. In my book, this steps way way way over the line. Why? Erwin created the new filter himself and boy does it sound great! You guys are missing out.
HT: 568.2mm (Revelation One filter), 518x2, SB3, Bryston 7BSTx3, 8BST, Aerial 10T, CC3, SW12(Qty2) w/SVS AS-EQ1, MK Tripole x4. JVC RS1u, DVDO Duo, Oppo 103 w/Vanity103HD, Sony PS3, VIP 3D Theatre, Acer H5360. Logitech Ultimate Remote and Hub.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,579 Likes: 22
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
|
|
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,579 Likes: 22 |
I'd like to point out that two distinctly separate issues are at risk of conflation here.
The philosophy of tweaking will have adherents and detractors, personally I think Erwin has received far too much criticism for his innovative efforts to bring us a solution which Meridian promised, and took a very long time to deliver. Great that we now have the official release, and also great that we have creative thinkers like Erwin and George Mills.
The issue of Meridian's relationship with this forum is a different matter for discussion, and it's worth remembering that the (unpopular) "Dealer only" route of contact was well established prior to Erwin's work, so let's not rewrite history to make Erwin out as the bad guy who brought the whole show down. That is simply not the case.
As an aside, I didn't sign, nor was I required to sign, a contract or disclaimer when I bought my Meridian equipment to state that I'd maintain the products in the same condition as supplied. I view it as my decision whether I modify it or not, and in whatever manner I choose. Unless we have some firm legal footing on the matter, I think this subject is one for personal opinion only, however strongly held that opinion may be.
Cheers
George
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,140 Likes: 24
Hooloovoo
|
|
Hooloovoo
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,140 Likes: 24 |
Of course Erwin's filter relies on Meridian IP - it couldn't work without it. In the same way that a CD manufacturer relies on Sony Philips IP. Don't all legitimate CD manufacturers (players and discs) have to pay a license and commit to complying with the Red Book standard to ensure quality and consistency? The question is whether what he has done is legitimate. Whether it sounds better is entirely irrelevant to its legitimacy. Whether I choose to use it is down to my view on that legitimacy.
Sorry, on re-reading my post reads as an attack on individuals' views; to clarify, it is not meant in that manner but as my contribution to the debate.
Last edited by Gianni; 2011-12-03 12:18. Reason: Apology and clarification
In the spirit of Spinaltap, I would like to confirm that I am not involved in the corrupt theft of a global sport.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,579 Likes: 22
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
|
|
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,579 Likes: 22 |
The car analogy has been raised, and I did wonder about this myself.
Isn't the case in point similar to buying an aftermarket engine-chip-box-mod-thingy? Wouldn't such remapping devices have to be derived from the existing electronic engine management code to enable them to slot in and work as they do?
Although you clearly install such engine mods at your own risk, are car manufacturers relentlessly pursuing the accessory makers for producing such devices? is there legal precedent for car manufacturers taking action against modification companies for these tuning kits?
Cheers
George
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,364 Likes: 2
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
|
|
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,364 Likes: 2 |
Maybe the answer is a separate forum or similar relating to M tweaking that avoids this one offending M or those that don't agree with tweaking. There are a gazillion DIY forums that people could use. No need to set one up.
Ex-moderator Sitting room: dCS Network Bridge, 818v3, HD621, 8kSE Library: dCS Rossini Apex DAC/Clock, Clearaudio Performance Wood, Audio Research PH2, Mjölnir KGST, Mjölnir PureBipolar SWMBO Room: 210, D33 Kitchen: Meridian MS200, Genelec 6010 actives Mobile: Audioquest DragonFly Copper, Sennheiser IE600 Desk: Merging Anubis Server: Roon/ROCK/NUC Headphones: Stax SR-X9000, Stax SR-007, Stax SR-404LE, Audeze LCD-X...
Oldest audio file: 1889 Edison cylinder
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,560 Likes: 1
Working on the ultimate question
|
|
Working on the ultimate question
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,560 Likes: 1 |
Erwin's new filter is no different from making a hardware change or modifying your cars engine software to change the power curve across the RPM range.
If it bothers you fine don't do it.
HT: 568.2mm (Revelation One filter), 518x2, SB3, Bryston 7BSTx3, 8BST, Aerial 10T, CC3, SW12(Qty2) w/SVS AS-EQ1, MK Tripole x4. JVC RS1u, DVDO Duo, Oppo 103 w/Vanity103HD, Sony PS3, VIP 3D Theatre, Acer H5360. Logitech Ultimate Remote and Hub.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 337
Hitchhiker
|
|
Hitchhiker
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 337 |
Of course Erwin's filter relies on Meridian IP - it couldn't work without it. Yes, but hardware mods depend on Meridian's IP as well. I wouldn't be able to fit another power supply if Meridian hadn't designed a controller to put it in. That design included voltage and current requirements that I reverse-engineered. I think its the whole design that is their IP. That design consists of both H/W and S/W, and I don't understand what is so precious about S/W. People that develop S/W for a living are protective of it, but what if we had a H/W designer here? Maybe even a Meridian designer? Wouldn't he also be protective about his work, and afronted if someone tried to modify it? Erwin's new filter is no different from .... modifying your cars engine software to change the power curve.. Agreed. He's not taking an engine, modifying it, then selling it as his own engine. He's only selling the modification. The user still has to own the orignal product. Nick
|
|
|
|
Forums18
Topics31,244
Posts297,388
Members5,503
| |
Most Online4,788 May 22nd, 2026
|
|
|
|