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Don't Panic!
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Don't Panic!
Joined: Apr 2004
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Is adding "dither" (in 24bit) all Meridian Resolution Enhancement is? I have no idea exactly what Meridian does, but I don't think it's a secret. That Wadia document was very complementary to the 518 manual, so I'm guessing that word length modification is simply adding random noise to the least significant bits.
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Joined: May 2000
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President of the Imperial Galactic Government
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President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 8,364 Likes: 14 |
Is adding "dither" (in 24bit) all Meridian Resolution Enhancement is? I have no idea exactly what Meridian does, but I don't think it's a secret. That Wadia document was very complementary to the 518 manual, so I'm guessing that word length modification is simply adding random noise to the least significant bits. I know should go read up myself but does the SOX allow choices of types of dither too? Posted from mobile phone.
- Fiddler (IMHO)
If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument. HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6 Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Don't Panic!
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Don't Panic!
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,733 Likes: 88 |
No idea. Even better, there appears to be a FIR plug-in, but I need to investigate more.
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Joined: May 2004
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Paranoid android
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Paranoid android
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The ideea of server-based, off-line audio processing (eg, resolution enhancement, upsampling & filtering where applicable) looks very promissing as you no longer have the constraints imposed by real-time processing. It could be feasible to implement very long filters (adaptive to music track duration) and that's just one argument. You could let the server process your 44/16 tracks all night long ...  I wonder if Meridian will port their considerable filter design experience to a software solution inside Soloos. Could be interesting, lots of technical possibilities here.
M kit : G08 502 557 507 2xDSP5k
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Don't Panic!
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Don't Panic!
Joined: Apr 2004
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That's a really interesting point. More MIPS (or more processing time) = more powerful filters. Take a look at the impulse responses of the following: It's 96kHz to 44.1kHz downsampling, but you can see the difference between many filter designs. Some filters pre-ring, some are Meridian-like apodizing minimum phase, a couple virtually have an identical impulse response to the impulse... http://src.infinitewave.ca/
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Joined: May 2004
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Paranoid android
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Paranoid android
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 517 |
[quote=George Mills]Is adding "dither" (in 24bit) all Meridian Resolution Enhancement is? I have no idea exactly what Meridian does, but I don't think it's a secret. That Wadia document was very complementary to the 518 manual, so I'm guessing that word length modification is simply adding random noise to the least significant bits. I know should go read up myself but does the SOX allow choices of types of dither too? Posted from mobile phone. [/quote] I guess if you generate a test wave file with nothing but a fixed frequency encoded in the lowest (say) 2 or 3 bits (of 16) then burn to CD/DVD and then play it as file or CD/DVD through M gear that internally modifies bit depth - you should get the signal on output at exactly the expected level if M res enhancement is just dithering the lower order bits in 24 after "pasting" the original 16 topside. One can compute level or rms level for specific bits allocated to the test "beat". If M res enhancement is intepolating 16 to 20 (downwards) and then adding dither in the lowest 4-5 bits of 24 then the "beat" should be at a lower bit level (lower RMS level) in the output. Might even be detectable with a simple audioband scope. I guess one couldn't confuse the beat with dither since dither (probably TPDF) is uncorrelated. I suppose someone could try that.
M kit : G08 502 557 507 2xDSP5k
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Paranoid android
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Paranoid android
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 517 |
That's a really interesting point. More MIPS (or more processing time) = more powerful filters. Take a look at the impulse responses of the following: It's 96kHz to 44.1kHz downsampling, but you can see the difference between many filter designs. Some filters pre-ring, some are Meridian-like apodizing minimum phase, a couple virtually have an identical impulse response to the impulse... http://src.infinitewave.ca/Well, yes, longer filters should produce better results (as someone so nicely put it : the ideal filter is infinitely long but sadly never gets to produce an output because of that length ...  ...). Up to some point, the same filter design goals will probably produce similar results, but I guess we are all looking at what happens beyond that point  I assume it shouldn't be very difficult for M to port their filter design to the server environment, it remains to be seen if that makes sense from their point of view.
Last edited by GoodOldDog; 2010-08-13 20:33.
M kit : G08 502 557 507 2xDSP5k
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Don't Panic!
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Don't Panic!
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SoX man page has the following to say about dither: Dithering is a technique used to maximise the dynamic range of audio stored at a particular bit-depth: any distortion introduced by quantisation is decorrelated by adding a small amount of white noise to the signal. In most cases, SoX can determine whether the selected processing requires dither and will add it during output formatting if appropriate.
Specifically, by default, SoX automatically adds TPDF dither when the output bit-depth is less than 24 and any of the following are true:
- Bit-depth reduction has been specified explicitly using a command-line option
- The output file format supports only bit-depths lower than that of the input file format
- An effect has increased effective bit-depth within the internal processing chain
For example, adjusting volume with vol 0.25 requires two additional bits in which to losslessly store its results (since 0.25 decimal equals 0.01 binary). So if the input file bit-depth is 16, then SoX's internal representation will utilise 18 bits after processing this volume change. In order to store the output at the same depth as the input, dithering is used to remove the additional bits.
Use the -V option to see what processing SoX has automatically added; the -D option may be given to override automatic dithering. To invoke dithering manually (e.g. to select a noise-shaping curve), see the dither effect. SoX dither options: dither [-a] [-S|-s|-f filter] Apply dithering to the audio. Dithering deliberately adds a small amount of noise to the signal in order to mask audible quantization effects that can occur if the output sample size is less than 24 bits. With no options, this effect will add triangular (TPDF) white noise. Noise-shaping (only for certain sample rates) can be selected with -s. With the -f option, it is possible to select a particular noise-shaping filter from the following list: lipshitz, f-weighted, modified-e-weighted, improved-e-weighted, gesemann, shibata, low-shibata, high-shibata. Note that most filter types are available only with 44100Hz sample rate. The filter types are distinguished by the following properties: audibility of noise, level of (inaudible, but in some circumstances, otherwise problematic) shaped high frequency noise, and processing speed. See http://sox.sourceforge.net/SoX/NoiseShaping for graphs of the different noise-shaping curves. The -S option selects a slightly `sloped' TPDF, biased towards higher frequencies. It can be used at any sampling rate but below 22k, plain TPDF is probably better, and above 37k, noise-shaped is probably better. The -a option enables a mode where dithering (and noise-shaping if applicable) are automatically enabled only when needed. The most likely use for this is when applying fade in or out to an already dithered file, so that the redithering applies only to the faded portions. However, auto dithering is not fool-proof, so the fades should be carefully checked for any noise modulation; if this occurs, then either re-dither the whole file, or use trim, fade, and concatencate. If the SoX global option -R option is not given, then the pseudo-random number generator used to generate the white noise will be `reseeded', i.e. the generated noise will be different between invocations. This effect should not be followed by any other effect that affects the audio.
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Paranoid android
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Paranoid android
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VK, if I understand correctly they mostly talk about bit-depth reduction there. I was just triyng to think of a practical method which will bring light on what M resolution enhancement really does to "useful signal" bit depth (16 to 24 conversion) before dithering.
Last edited by GoodOldDog; 2010-08-13 20:45. Reason: trying to be more specific
M kit : G08 502 557 507 2xDSP5k
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President of the Imperial Galactic Government
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President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 8,364 Likes: 14 |
I guess if you generate a test wave file with nothing but a fixed frequency encoded in the lowest (say) 2 or 3 bits (of 16) then burn to CD/DVD and then play it as file or CD/DVD through M gear that internally modifies bit depth - you should get the signal on output at exactly the expected level if M res enhancement is just dithering the lower order bits in 24 after "pasting" the original 16 topside. One can compute level or rms level for specific bits allocated to the test "beat". If M res enhancement is intepolating 16 to 20 (downwards) and then adding dither in the lowest 4-5 bits of 24 then the "beat" should be at a lower bit level (lower RMS level) in the output. Might even be detectable with a simple audioband scope. I guess one couldn't confuse the beat with dither since dither (probably TPDF) is uncorrelated. I suppose someone could try that. If I pass 16bit DTS through HD621 with upsampling in HD621 turned off G68 cannot decode the DTS bit stream. I also tested converting 16bit DTS to 24bit and playing that direct and G68 did decode it. So my guess is that your test above would fail. But it's well worth poking around with to see what is possible and what is not. Even though heavy duty offline processing is possible, would you maintain a seperate library from the "Master RIP of the CD" or replace your library with the processed one? If you do store a processed copy then your talking about possobly 4x the total storage. I tended to like the idea of doing this stuff in Sox in "real time" so I didn't have to think about library issues. It also allows you to twiddle with knobs real time. Keep in mind that the multi core processors in PC's (and GPUs) are extremely powerful and with the buffering taking place in the SqueezeBox/Transporter it does not have to be strictly as "real time" as it does in a Meridian box. That is, if the Server PC burps during preprocessing (e.g. "real time" in Sox) you won't hear any problems.
- Fiddler (IMHO)
If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument. HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6 Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
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Paranoid android
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Paranoid android
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Even though heavy duty offline processing is possible, would you maintain a seperate library from the "Master RIP of the CD" or replace your library with the processed one? You have a good point there. Too many options are always an incentive to experiment so you'd want to keep the original files for further testing down the road  Anyway, I'm tempted by the ideea of loooooooooong filters.
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President of the Imperial Galactic Government
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President of the Imperial Galactic Government
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Keep in mind if you have say 1000 CD's that's about 41 days.
If you could process realtime there would be no need to go off line processing.
So if it would take LONGER than realtime your talking more than 41 days of processing for a 1000 CD library. If it were to take say 5x longer than realtime for loooooong filters now your talking 200days of processing for a 1000 CD's. And if your library was say 5000 CD's it would take 1000 days.
Just some rough numbers to think about.
- Fiddler (IMHO)
If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument. HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6 Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
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