Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Off Topic OT: SONOS Not Viable...Need Advice...Read On...

Thanks. Its been about a year since I retired my Squeezebox and, due the the ever increasing requirements of SlimServer/Squeezeserver affecting the performance of my old 512MB/500Mhz Win 2000 PC, it will have been a good few years since I updated any software so have missed the name changes/updates. I don't think I ever took any logitech branded software after the takeover for fear of logitech bloatware affecting performance even more.

I suspect that Logitech / SB will adopt a GUI that does much like Sooloos soon. The limitations of using html/web front end is always going to slow them down otherwise (so I'm told). The little squeezeplay GUI is pretty fast as it doesn't use the web coding. Similar in that respect to Sooloos as it goes straight to the database.

iPeng!

Agree but not everyone has an iThing (yet);)

@ All
Thanks to all...this has been very frustrating with conflicting imformation from SONOS themselves regarding the use of STP compliant routers/switches...

I think that I am going to go back to firsdt principles and take down every wireless device in my house on the theory that the S5 will work and then bring them up one at a time until I find the offending device...

And, in the event that the above does NOT work then I will try another solution...



@Ian
Appreciate the information...it is likely a similar geographic restriction which makes me really dislike the CRTC...



@Nick
Appreciate the information and will download teh software as you suggest but am skeptical about the end resuklt because there will be no unit for the software to link to thus it may/may not work (i.e. SONOS software is useless for any and all testing / use unless there is a device present)...

With Squeezebox there is a 'device' present as the squeezeplayer will act as a virtual clone of a squeeze player, just on your PC rather than a physical unit. As far as slimserver is concerned, squeezeplayer (assuming its the same as softsqueeze) will look and behave just like a real device. Quite different to the Sonos app which, as you say, needs to link to physically present devices.

I appreciate the pain with Sonos and wireless - when it works, it works so well that you use if for more than just listening to music. I am convinced that my house had lead lined walls at times as I use Sonos as a wireless bridge between my ISP router and my office network and once in a while the link goes down, reminding me that I am not on a fully wired network after all. I think the real problem for me is that I cannot get my ISP router central within the house, so external interference, possibly channels overlapping with stronger neighbours networks, or from a nearby airport which has the occasional military experiment going on, do not help when the signal strength lessons as I move away from my router and wired Sonos connection. Normally bouncing the wireless channel on Sonos a couple of times fixes the issue.

The definitive workings of SONOS networking as posted on the SONOS support forum as it seems that SONOS corporate is thanksfully very interested in solving my problem...the internet is a great marketing tool!

++++++++++++++++

#23 Today, 03:56 PM
Todd - Sonos
Sonos Support Administrator Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 171


I wanted to post a few clarifications regarding SONOS and Spanning Tree Protocol that have been raised in this thread.

SONOS ZonePlayers use 802.1D Spanning Tree (STP) for loop prevention between wired ZonePlayers and the wireless SonosNet Mesh Network. The Spanning Tree running on ZonePlayers is compliant with IEEE 802.1D and can inter-operate with other IEEE 802.1D and IEEE 802.1w compliant devices. Note: IEEE 802.1w is an updated version of the Spanning Tree protocol called Rapid Spanning Tree. The two types of STP protocols are compatible and 802.1w should revert to inter-operate with 802.1D devices (such as Sonos). Therefore, 802.1w Ethernet switches will work with Sonos ZonePlayers.

SONOS ZonePlayers CAN be connected to Ethernet switches that do NOT support Spanning Tree as long as the Ethernet switches do not interfere with the STP BPDU packets transmitted between ZonePlayers. This is typically never the case and these switches pass the BPDU packets like any other packet.

If the Ethernet switches that Sonos ZonePlayers are wired to DOES support Spanning Tree, the Spanning Tree on those switches must be configured properly. Ethernet switches that support Spanning Tree typically have their STP settings disabled. This also typically means that these switches will block/discard the BPDUs coming from the ZonePlayers. When the ZonePlayers are not able to see BPDUs, they cannot detect there is a shared transmission medium between the Zones and this will typically result in loops in the network. The solution to allow the use of these switches with Sonos is to enable and configure the Spanning Tree on the Ethernet switches. The configuration settings on each switch are different and the appropriate documentation for those products should be consulted. Note: Some switches have a setting that is called Pass BPDUs or equivalent. This setting when present allows the BPDUs between the ZonePlayers to pass freely through the switch without actually enabling STP on the the switch. Typically, setting this function also works, but again please review the switches product documentation.

A good guideline for Ethernet switches is if the switch says it supports Spanning Tree, either 802.1D or 802.1w, then its configuration settings and user documentation should be examined before wiring multiple ZonePlayers to the switch. If the switch does not state it supports Spanning Tree, 802.1D, or 802.1w, it will probably work fine with Sonos.

SONOS ZonePlayers do NOT require a connection to the same Ethernet switch. Different ZonePlayers can be connected to different Ethernet switches which are in turn connected to each other. The only requirement is that Sonos ZonePlayers must be able to actively participate in 802.1D Spanning Tree and not have BPDU transmission blocked between them. There is no Sonos limitation that prevents wiring multiple ZonePlayers to multiple Ethernet switches.

IEEE 802.1D has a recommended bridge span limitation of 7 bridges. This means that the total number of connected bridges from one end of the network to the other should not exceed 7 bridges. This typically only comes into play when daisy chaining Sonos ZonePlayers together by wiring one ZonePlayer to the next. In this case, the guidelines is when daisy chaining ZonePlayers, do not exceed 7 ZonePlayers wired together. If wiring multiple ZonePlayer to a single Ethernet switch, typically the number of spans will only be 3 or 4 (I.e. much less than 7). Except in the daisy-chain configuration, this limit of 7 bridges/7 ZonePlayers, is rarely ever hit.

A number of comments have used the term router and switch interchangeably in regards to this topic. Sonos ZonePlayers in the same HouseHold MUST be connected to the same routed network. A Spanning Tree cannot span two or more routed networks. In addition all Sonos ZonePlayers and Controllers must be on the same routed IP network in order to properly communicate and function. Typically, two or more routed networks are not see in the household environment except by accident (Example. A carrier provides a new router in a network that already had a router and the original router was not removed).

Hopefully this information has clarified a number of items and not added additional confusion.

Regards, Todd

Ian, appreciate the clarification and the knowledge that I can test this without a physical unit...that is great!





I understand...the issue in my house is compliated by the fact that I have a lot of wireless devices in Crestron controllers throughout the house, Crestron gateways, iPhones, laptops, telephones, etc...

The easiest -- and hopefully reliable -- solution per SONOS is to use a ZoneBridge at the switch in my office...should this not work then the only option is to hardwire the cucker.

We will be trouble shooting and resolving the problem over the next few days with SONOS as they have already schedule call times with me...will keep everyone posted..

It's really uplifting to see a product manufacturer engage directly on issues like this. It creates such good will and good PR and actually puts accurate information out into the place where it needs to be.

Highly likely to keep you as a Sonos customer using their products and not others (like SB) and rightly so.

Hmmmmm......

@All:

The results from yesterday's test are as follows;

1. Wiring the SONOS S5 to the switch in the same room worked perfectly...never dropped teh signal once.

2. Wiring a SONOS ZP 120 to the swicth in the same room to use as a bridge thereby letting the SONOS S5 operate wirelessly worked failrly well...it did drop the signal twice in 7 or 8 hours of testing but there may be one or two work arounds...


@ Nick

Completely correct...they monitored their support forum...they stepped up to the plate by posting the proper information, by speaking to me directly and even making themselves available next week to troubleshoot with the CIs I am using next week...

Could NOT ask for more with the result being tat I will spend more time working to get this sorted than jump to another company's offering....now, should this not be resolvable then I will revisit my options...

Hey Meridian, are you lsitening...

Maybe they can start by opening their own support forum?

Although i) I will continue to monitor and test performance over the weekend and ii) the initial test results were promising in that there were no dropped signald within the first 30 minutes when wiring of the Cisco SD 205 switch to a ZoneBridge/ZonePlayer thereby leaving the SONOS S5 to operate wirelessly.

This, unfortunately, is not a reliable solution in that signal drop outs do occur. As an example, I experienced two signal drops in a 5 to 10 minute period earlier today.

Will continue to work with SONOS to solve the problem although it is looking more and more like a wired solution will be needed...


PS. Can anyone recommend a reliable Ethernet Over Power product as this would likely be my first step before cutting holes in the drywall...TIA.