Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems Worthwhile trading-in 808.2 for 808.3?

Pers1

Thanks for all your info that gives me reason to consider further - and unfortunately spend more money.

Sorry Asa
I don't get why you're quoting my post regarding Analog Inputs into the 861v6 or 808.3

Analog Inputs will be ADC'd to 24/96 at the Input Card. They will not be Apodized as they are already High Res

Most Digital Inputs will be Apodized ranging from
..............DAB Radio at 124kbps and 16/48
..............CD at 1,411kbps and 16/48
..............High Res 24/48 at 2,304kbps

Not sure about why you quote me??????? [/quote]

Hi Ronnie

Why did I quote you? Well, no cause for worry or excitement ( I know, I know, you are neither worried nor excited. It was a follow-on from what Carl had written:
"If you`re feeding your 808i.2 with analogue, you will not get any benefit from the 808i.2 apodizing." To which I asked: "Have you read this somewhere?"

I was surprised by his statement because I thought I had read / been told that upsampling / resolution enhancement / apodising took place on standard resolution inputs whether digital or analogue. Annoyingly, I could not remember my source so I asked Carl my question to which you offered the reply:
"Analog Inputs are converted to Digital using 24/96 ADC's
As the Data Stream will then be 24/96, then the Apodizing filter will not come into play."

I do not know whether you inferred, deduced, read or was told this. It is just at variance from what I have been told i.e. upsampling / resolution enhancement / apoodising take place for standard resolution inputs whether analogue or digital. I had recently had this confirmed by two different Meridian dealers pursuing two different lines of enquiry. Yesterday, I had this confirmed by a senior Meridian employee face-to-face.

So, we are engaged in a shared enterprise to try and understand some of the features of the 808i.2, a product now more than two years old. As always, it would be helpful if Meridian could put more factual information and less persiflage into their data sheets.

And that is why I quoted you.

Well, here I am quoting you again.

I was told yesterday by a senior Meridian employee, face-to-face, that the 808.3 does not have more MIPS than the 808.2. The improvements to CD replay come about from optimisation of components and do not reveal themselves from a reading of specifications. The changes are the result of Bob Stuart's own listening over a period of two years and are to his personal specification.

I am sorry if this sounds a bit vague but it is exactly the same story as the one I got from a dealer.

If we turn our attention to specifications, we can read in the data sheet that the 808.3 has better jitter figures than the 808.1. Should we read anything into the fact that no comparison is made with the 808.2?

there is no such thing to 'resolution' of analogue signals in this context. The analogue domain effectively has infinite resolution limited by the analogue electronics. So standard resolution analogue signal for the purposes of this conversation does not make sense. The analogue signal does not have resolution until it becomes digital in which case it will be 96/24 as this is the resolution of the ADC's used in the majority of Meridian kit.

I was told, and posted earlier, there was no change in the apodising filter itself between 808.2 and 808.3. Instead the improvement results from:

New design and improved oscillators
Redesigned digital clocks
Reduced RF interference

These changes were reported to improve jitter which in turn improves detail and imaging, what was also called “improve the audio performance by lifting detail and further opening the image”. You should also expect to hear improved timing, particularly in the low-end.

Asa Post that was an interesting comment your reported about the 808.3 changes being the result of Bob Stuart's own listening over a period of two years and are to his personal specification. Whatever component improvements that show or not in the specifications Meridian's - Bob's - listening is an essential and reliable part of getting their product to markert.

I just noticed your new topic on 808.3 impressions. A good idea.

Asa
I don't want this to overly prolong this but............

No questions asked, Apodizing is applied and is of benefit on all 16/44; 16:48; and 24/48 Digital Sources

As regards Analog sources, (and as as Ian says above), "High Res" or "Low Res" or "Resolution" is a term that is not typically applied to Analog Sources. Likewise, Apodizing or Upsampling is not something that can be applied to Analog sources, at least until they have first been converted to a Digital Data Stream

The Analog Card on the 808.2 or 3 and the 861 will take the Analog Source and immediately convert it to Digital 24/96 on the Input Card itself.

Once the Data Stream is in a 24/96 format, will that Stream have the Apodizing / Upsampling filter applied??? Rather than give you my interpretation, better to take Bob's own interpretation from the CES Q&A 2009



Now Asa, in no way am I trying to denigrate the way that the Meridian 808.x or 861 deals with Analog sources. They are converted to Digital 24/96 using Meridian's very transparent ADC Process. Then all Processing is carried out in the Digital domain at High Res, which is obviously a very good thing

All I'm saying is that the main benefit of Apodizing is generally recognized as being the minimization of pre-ringing caused by the steep "brick wall" filters used on 41khz and 48khz material. Because Meridian's 24/96 ADC process does not employ such brick wall filters, applying the Apodizing filter to the 24/96 converted Analog source will be of limited value at best

Just to re-emphasize, I do not regard this as a Negative in any way

Let me try and say this another way. I have about 400 discs with native 24/96 High Res material. I plan on passing this into an 808.3 or 861v6 thru their Digital Inputs.

For the EXACT same reasons as above, I do not believe that the Apodizing filter will Add or Subtract anything from this 24/96 material. It's quite possible (even likely??) that some other 808 or 861 changes will add value (I hope), but Apodizing itself will of limited value on this material

Ronnie I don't think you have inappropriately prolonged the issue with your very clear and useful explanation.

It also relates to some difficulty I had with the info coming down the chain to me from Meridian with making sure I could separate as much as possible the 808.3 CD playback improvements from improvements via analogue inputs.

Ronnie I would also expect some improvement that is hopefully audible from 24/96 digital input to 808.3, such as from better clocking. Time and listening will tell.

I would like to think that there will be an improvement from using an 861v6 (and 808.3 for 2-ch) across the board for 16/44 CD & Network Players as well as 24/96 from DVD-A's

However, the point of the above post is to say that Apodizing ITSELF won't contribute too much improvement to 24/96 material, based on logic as well as Bob's comments

I'm hopeful that some of the other architectural improvements will offer benefits on all fronts

Totally agree and wait with baited breath on this point. The confusion over which unit will or won't do the best apodizing and at which point in the chain is an important one to resolve for many here I feel.

I have had further discussions with a more senior Meridian person which have been very helpful.

Due to changes in component supply, some modifications have been forced upon Meridian. They took this as an opportunity to re-design and improve the 808.2. The identical statements in the data sheets for jitter for the 808.2 and the 808.3 are both true. Each has new jitter-reduction and lower jitter than the previous model. The way in which jitter is now measured at such low levels has had to change so direct statistical comparisons are difficult. The essential point is that the 808.3 has lower jitter.

Jitter is now being addressed not only at the point at which the signal enters the player but also as it moves through the player. I assume that this research also fed into the new architecture of the 861.6 but must emphasize that this is my assumption and was not discussed. I also assume that this has huge implications for the redesign of further Meridian products. I am thinking DSPs here in particular.

The improvements in timing and rhythm are said to be particularly apparent with bass.

Any errors in the above are my own and in any case subject to the limits of my technical understanding. I would particularly like to thank Meridian for giving so generously of their time when they are so busy rolling out new products. All my questions were answered in detail and with integrity.

Thank you Meridian!

Great info! Thanks for posting.