Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems 861v6 upgrade thoughts

I thought I'd start another thread on whether or not one should upgrade the 861v4 to 861v6, because useful information is getting scattered in various places. However, as I started writing, this post became a more extended post on the whole 861v6 "debacle". So, as a G68 owner, potential used 861v4 owner, and long time Meridian watcher, fan, critic and commentator, here are my extended thoughts:

First of all (and this thought prefaces everything that follows), if you want the very best from Meridian, you are going to have to pay for it. And if that means getting an 861v6 and four AC12s so that the v6 is going to work in your system, then that is what it is going to take. The 800 series has always been targetted at the very wealthy, for whom spending �10k is not a significant purchasing decision. Like it or not, if ownership of an 800 series product is a big deal to you (e.g. you purchased your dream 8xx on eBay or got a great B-stock deal), you are playing in the wrong ballpark. At the very least, you have to accept that you may come unstuck when Meridian moves on. For this reason, I've always been very nervous of getting an 861. Last year, at the very trough of the market, I turned down the chance to replace my G68 with a fully-loaded 861v4 (upgraded from v1) which finally went on eBay for just over �3000. It just seemed wrong to me to be so desperate for an 861 that I'd have to compromise on an old unit with old revisions of cards etc. and I might not be able to (or want to) afford any future upgrade.

That said, Meridian is undoubtedly guilty of leading people down an expectant path. It appears that that path has come to an end and a new path is beginning. This is very tough for some of us and it would have been eased if Meridian had been straight up with everyone. Given the upgrade history of the 861, I don't think that it was unreasonable for 861v4 owners to believe that an MMHR input card and a SpeakerLink output card would be forthcoming. In fact, I am aware of two dealers that believed these cards were imminent and that some customers have been burned by this incorrect information.

However...

Irrespective of the secrecy and communication failures, I'm reasonably certain that if Meridian had continued operating the way it had been prior to the Muse involvement (proliferation of products, poor partnerships (Genesis/Faroudja), awful marketing, etc.), we would be left with no Meridian. It might not have been a quick death, but it would have happened. I have been told that, as of August last year, Muse now owns 80% of Meridian... Whither Meridian without Muse?

I actually think that the UK 861 trade-in deal is very fair, particularly once you have negotiated a discount/deal with your dealer. There is definitely something fishy about the US price though and I hope this gets clarified soon.

The 808 deal doesn't seem so great on paper, but the addition of the Sooloos card makes the 808.3 a different product. Sooloos aside, I'd be willing to bet that there's not much between the 808.2 and 808.3 in terms of CD replay and apodizing of external sources. And don't forget that 808 owners were offered an upgrade from 808 to 808.2 for a very reasonable, IMO, �2500.

Moving on to the v6 upgrade question, these are the main new features of the 861v6:

1) Apodizing
2) 7.1 MMHR input
3) SpeakerLink inputs and outputs
4) Better (96/24) analogue input card
5) "Incremental" sonic improvements due to the new architecture, layout, etc.

and these are the main missing features (cards) of the 861v6:

6) Balanced analogue inputs
7) Tape card / copy zone
8) Video switching

The upgrade decision is, of course, going to come down to individual circumstances. Those for whom a v6 purchase is no big deal will go down that route. Others have a potentially tricky decision to make and I don't think it's a technical one: It is whether or not you are going to be happy not owning the product at the top of the pile.

I say this as I believe that, with the possible and notable exception of apodizing the PCM from Meridian DVD players* and the exception of the eight channel input (is it really that important?), it is possible to put together v4 and v6 systems with comparable functionality.

For instance, an HD621 can be used to apodize both stereo and multi-channel HDMI inputs (and SPDIF ones with an appropriate adaptor). Similarly, there are ways of coping with the loss of input cards with an 861v6 (e.g. possibly use a 562 for multi-zone, a non-Meridian phono stage, a 562v3 or other device for switching component video).

The difference is, of course, that one system is the very best, and one was.

For what it's worth, I think it's a good bet that apodizing is going to be 95% of the "substantial" improvement talked about. Also, I'm not going to bet on the v4 getting apodizing. Can anyone think of a major feature addition to the software of an n-1 version of the 861? The fact that Meridian chose to continue using the 861 moniker suggests to me that it will probably provide new feature updates for the v6 only. I may be wrong, but I think I'm being realistic. We certainly won't know until after the trade-up deal ends, unless they really are stupid



* It is still unclear to me whether or not six-channel audio is available over the HDMI output of Meridian DVD players. I suspect that it works for late revision players, but not for earlier revisions of the same model.

IMHO, with an ID40 Sooloos card, Sooloos related enhancements will be the major feature addition of an n-1 861. My guess is that the reason v6 is a completely new unit has more to do with Sooloos integration, than discrete 7.1, apodizing etc.

While I have been a sceptic about Sooloos to date, the idea of a tightly integrated 861v6, DSP, HD621, Sooloos is starting to look VERY compelling.

Thanks Arcade, I did miss that out. I guess the story is the same though: You can use an existing Sooloos client with an 861v4, but for the very best, you need to move to the v6 with Sooloos card.

I would add 6) Improved analogue output cards (Balanced & Non Balanced).

Video Switching [Analogue], missing yes but not major; who uses it these days?

UK trade-in prices, (not cheap & never will be) seem OK, would liked to have seen a difference between V3 & V4 values.

Regards,
Carl.

Surely until we actually read an authoritative and detailed hands-on review of the v.6 it is impossible to say much more than VK has already said in his excellent summary?

Leaving aside the large matter of non-UK pricing, VK's assessment that the trade-in deal is reasonable, bearing in mind the architecture changes, seems on the mark. The only question is whether the differences merit the outlay. Meridian clearly thinks they do, but for the customer it is an entirely personal question, related to their system, circumstances, desires etc.

While the decision remains personal, we need at least a baseline of critical examination to contextualize our personal wishes, and that can only be provided when someone with expertise gets the opportunity to give the v.6 a really serious inspection and audition.

(The non-UK pricing does seem to need revision, but that's a whole different question, and importantly does not just relate to this trade-in deal. All high-end UK audio including Meridian is overpriced in Germany, and I simply will not pay those prices.)

I went back and reread the 861v6 CES press release. It would be great if true. But my guess is that Meridian's v4 upgrade policy has changed since CES.

"The ID40 Sooloos Card can be specified as an option when ordering a new 861 V6. Alternatively it can be retrofitted to existing 861 V6 products. More comprehensive upgrades are available for older 861 and 808 models, which enable both to host the ID40 Sooloos Card, please contact Meridian directly for details."

Joel
I agree that the inclusion of Apodizing in the 861v6 is probably the main (95% plus) reason for existing 861v4 owners to consider trading up to the v6 model. A few comments of my own, including a few things I`ve heard over the past several days

a) A good number of us were at HH2, where we heard Bob declare that “we tried various implementations of the Apodizing Filter and the one that sounded the best was also the one that took up the most MIPS” (If memory serves, Bob said something very similar at the AES Lecture that you attended in 2008, I think???)

b) Now if that`s the case, then it doesn`t take a genius to ask “what if we threw even more MIPS at it, to try and make it sound even better???”

c) I am now “hearing” from (let`s call them) “Sources I trust” that this is exactly what they did and it was this (along with the requirements for discrete 8-ch MMHR Input; Speakerlink Inputs & Outputs etc.) that caused them to redesign the Internal Architecture of the 861 to the extent that they did

d) This redesign allowed them to even further Empower and Refine the Apodizing filter that they had in the 808.2i and thus they claim even improved performance over that Product

e) Given that the installed base of 861 / Meridian DSP users are probably 95% using non-Speakerlink DSP`s, I find the lack of a �550 SPDIF / DSP Output Card to be mystifying

f) That means that for me (like many here) the Trade Up cost becomes �8,100 less some “discount” (�6,500 plus 4 by �400)

g) Personally, I think Sooloos is barking up the wrong tree on too many fronts for it to be a serious consideration for me. Proprietary Back End Storage; Storing Albums as Single Files; iPod Files not being Lossless; Inability to apply meaningful Ratings to individual Tracks and especially the “Control:10” User Interface (or its likely successor) to be individual deal-breakers for me. When you add them all up and then add the significant Cost, I`m not sure I see the “differentiator”. Therefore, the Speakerlink Inputs are of limited value (at best) in my situation

h) FWIW, I`m also hearing that the ID40 Sooloos Card does NOT offer Audio Enhancements over and above the regular Speakerlink Input. This card is all about Accessibility and Control over your Sooloos system, especially in another room where your Sooloos system is not. The ID40 is not about improving Audio Performance

i) The ability to access Discrete 7.1 Bluray Tracks is “nice” but IMHO will not be a major advantage over what Meridian already manages with the Cinema Preset. That may change over time

j) IMHO, Meridian should Charge for Apodizing Firmware Updates to the Processors and Speakers. I just think that most people agree that it is probably the single biggest Step Forward that Meridian have made in the past several years (since DVD-A and Smartlink) and that they should charge users for it. This is what I`ve thought for the past 18 months since I heard the 808.2i. From a business perspective, I thought it was something that Meridian should charge for. BUT, they should have offered it 12-15 months ago. Each person can decide what they think a reasonable cost might have been (I realize that I will likely be in a minority of one on this opinion!!!)

k) I believe that Apodizing and other internal changes in the 861v6 will allow non-Sooloos users to enjoy the same level of Audio Performance as the Sooloos system, with the obvious advantages in terms of User Interface Options, Back End Storage and Thru-House Consistency of Media Replay

So, after all that………………..Is Apodizing to 808.2 levels (or possibly higher) of ALL your Digital Sources worth an extra �8,000…………………………….That to me is the question facing most here.

I think you are right or that the press release was simply wrong (maybe there was a rush to get everything ready for CES?).

I think this is true, but it does boil down to:

(a) Price not a factor, simply wanting to own the very best, and trusting Meridian.

(b) Price a factor, and therefore needing to know if *you* will notice any difference in *your* system.

The other interesting question for me, as an owner of 800v4 and 861v4 will be 808.2 into 861v4 versus 800 (and potentially any HDMI sources if apdoizing in v6 supercedes apodizing in HD621) into 861v6. If one accepts that discrete side channels are not a particularly big deal versus derived side channels, then the better value may be to simply pick up a second hand 808.2 (of which there will presumably be many) and get close to v6 apodizing performance.

Simon,

Interesting and timely post - your thoughts are very much in line with mine just now. I have no real interest in 7.1 or Sooloos and am already starting to think about putting the feelers out to the dealer network for a nicely-priced 'trade-in' 808.2 to go with a forthcoming HD621. As an apparently fairly 'typical' 861v4 owner (with 5.1 non-speakerlink DSPs), even thougn I might be able to drop �8-odd k on a v6 + AC12s, pure cost is not the issue for me - there's got to be SOME perceived VFM in the deal somewhere.

Re the .3 rev of the 808 - at �10k, which includes a �1k ID40, like-for-like specs place it only �500 above the previous 808.2i, so personally I'm not expecting any significant delta in CD performance between .3 and .2. I did also note that .i versions (which cost �1,250 extra new) will realise no more trade-in value.

Andy

PS VK - thanks and congrats on a very coherent and non-emotive summarisation of the state of play

VK thanks for starting this topic and starting it so well. We need more of these summary and focused topics after the info has been scattered on the forum.

My reading of Meridian's press release for the ID40, 861 v6, and 808.3 at:

http://media.meridian-audio.com/

means that the ID40 allows audio input from Sooloos to access the sound enhancing technology in the 861 v6 and 808.3 before output to speakers.

Simon; I like the way you think regarding the aphodizing improvement of the HD621; what is the advantage of putting that in the processor if you already own a hd HD621? I have a 5.1 home theater system; with no plans on getting side channels. I like the improvement of the HD621; and need to figure out best way to connect my digital SPDIF output of a music server into a HDMI adaptor for input into the HD621. For those of us with analog amplifiers and non-digital self powered speakers; will the improved analog output card improve the sonic signiture to our amplifiers?

Thanks to Virus Killer to start this thread; at least to get me thinking of how to best balance my desire for improved sound vs outlay of cash here in states. I am relatively new to the HH threads; and enjoy everyone's balanced and thoughtful responses; without typical vitriole.
Yours;
Bob P.
Kit: 861 v4.2; G-98 source; HD621; Sony 5000es; Directv; Bryston 28sst mono's; Parasound A-51 multi channel; Velodynne DD15, MBL 111e's, Aerial CC5; Paradigm dipole rears; powered zone 2 with B and W; Mitsubishi 73" dlp