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Knows where his towel is
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Knows where his towel is
Joined: Jan 2004
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I reckon that the 80% overage means the construction costs are coming in at 80% more than expected??
So, if they were meant to be in the $30k region they are coming in at aroudn $55k???
Which is putting the project out of budget and out of reach?
No Darling, I've had it months!
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Pan-dimensional being
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I will try to respond to everyone one at a time starting with this posting… Sorry, I was being a bit pedantic. No problem However, I hear this all the time. Someone gets an expert in, they are positive they can get a design in for x amount and then when it comes down to it, the price doubles or triples. I am sure that it does happen but in my case it was very surprising as I did a lot of up front work to make sure that this would not happen..surprise, surprise! Perhaps my post goes tto far in expressing my disappointment as I had my heart set on this room! I still don't get you post and your replies though, you asked whether you should drop the in wall stuff etc. and go with a fixed screen and something like the DSP 5200's, then when people say they would do that, you say.... .....I appreciate all the advise given so far but that the focus should be on the solution to the problem and not on the kit itself meaning that while comments about in-walls versuss in-room, fixed screens versuss masked screens etc. are appreciated they are not the *MAJOR* part of the issue that I am attempting to resolve as the kit has been specified by Anthony Grimani who I have full and complete faith in... So is changing the kit an option or not?? I understand your confusion and an attempt to address your confusions…to the point, YES, changing kit is an option but to me it is a two step process with the steps being i) deciding to a different route which would necessitate changing kit (at least relative to what was proposed) and ii) discussion / suggesting / supporting the best kit to change to...with the benefit of hindsight what you did was combine both steps… I don't know Anthony Grimani, from the info I can find he seems to own a company selling acoustic treatment, is that right?? He wons a number of companies…the one I am working with is called PMI Ltd. and can be found at www.pmiltd.com noting that his design specified generic acoustic treatment rather than that sold by his company… Over here in Europe, if we get someone to design a room for us they generally work with suppliers and builders to come back with a design that fits within our original budget. It sounds like this guy just got a little over excited and went a bit overboard with the design and the kit. Agreed, the lastest update I have had is that there will be a telecom next week to dicsuss where we go from here know that all involved have realized the degree to which the budget was over shot… I have heard and seen some serious rooms, they look great, and have some seriously top end kit in them, decent 3 chip DLPs that cinemas use for �250k, and commercial amps and speakers for another �100k, however, the overall image is not as nice as JVCs domestic designed DiLA for 25 times less money, (the new 990 is just stunning!!) and the sound although impressive for a cinema gets seriously tiring compared with things like the DSP5200's etc. Understood and this is *THE MEAT* of the issue and the key question… What percent improvement in audio and video will be achieved by building and spending the extra/incremental dollars for the engineered room OVER a less engineered and more generic setup of consisting of 7 * DSP 5200s + JVC 990 + 2.35:1 screen married to my already existing 861 + Lumagen RadianceXe + Opp-BD83… The reason why this is SO important is that to the extent that gain is minimal (i.e. 10%) then the decision process is clear…punt the engineered room and go with the above setup BUT, and this is a big but, to the extent that it is 50% then the decision gets much harder… I have you been to a room set up with the kit that has been specced. for you? Have you actually demoed this stuff properly?? Fair question and the answer is yes and no…yes, I have been in similar / such spaces and no in that I have not been in the exact space… How many builders have you got quotes from and what have they said to you after haggling? Three and we are in the haggling process now but, that said, it will likely not generate the necessary cost savings… Without more info I guess none of us can give any real advice. We don't know a kit list, we don't know the room dimensions, we don't know the building and what it is made of, we don't know who is doing the work and whether you sourced them or the installer did etc. etc.
Off the top of my head I would guess a custom installer company would charge around �35k for the building work (around $60k). I would guess a small team of builders going off your plans would do it for less than half that and do most of the electrics too. That is the point…the builder is over twice what you estimate…would be willing to psot most of the related documents but have no web hosting capabilities…would someone like to help I can / will forward the documents… Regarding the 'can be bettered comment'.
I have heard very mixed reviews on those Triad speakers, they are great if you have no choice other than in walls, however, most agree that if you can put a proper speaker in you will get better results and for less money. Understand, that said, I decide and listen with my ears and to me the proposed speakers sounded fantastic but, to your point, I do also love the sound of the M DSPs… Same with the screen, you need to spend serious money on a non fixed screen to get the same results as the same material on a fixed frame. The screen is fixed…it is an acoustically transparent fixed screen… Sounds like it should be a good room when done, so best of luck with it. Let`s hope so and thanks for all of your input….
Audio: Triad Monitor Golds, Surround Golds, Silver Subwoofers; Procella P-18 Subwoofer; QSC DCA 16622s, 1644, 3422, BASIS 922uz; ADA MACH IV B
Other: APC S-15s; Crestron
Sources and Video: Ran out of characters .....................
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Pan-dimensional being
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Pan-dimensional being
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Joel,
Not weighing in as an expert but as a member that settled on an equalized, non-acoustically perfect room, I question how you would achieve what you want with all DSP speakers.
You could equalize the subs but your room would need more than Meridian's basic EQ ability to sing. This is the current hitch with an all M speaker system for me. I use the NeptuneEQ with conventional speakers to great effect. I would love an all DSP system if I could integrate my EQ into the equation. IMO, to go all digital would require a pretty good room to start with if you expect it to truly shine.
Dave Agreed and this is part of the consideration in my options meaning that should I NOT proceed with a sound engineered room in some fashion then should I or should I not consider an M DSP based system as MANY/MOST here are very happy with the results…as someone who has NEVER owned a DSP speaker I am, among other things, looking for advice on this… I hope this clarified things a bit…and thanks for the input, it is appreciated..
Audio: Triad Monitor Golds, Surround Golds, Silver Subwoofers; Procella P-18 Subwoofer; QSC DCA 16622s, 1644, 3422, BASIS 922uz; ADA MACH IV B
Other: APC S-15s; Crestron
Sources and Video: Ran out of characters .....................
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Pan-dimensional being
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Pan-dimensional being
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<Not serious> Seeing as you live in Toronto, could you not have some cowboy do the work and then get Mike Holmes on the job to fix it up properly? BTW my wife swears I have a bromance for Holmes  
Audio: Triad Monitor Golds, Surround Golds, Silver Subwoofers; Procella P-18 Subwoofer; QSC DCA 16622s, 1644, 3422, BASIS 922uz; ADA MACH IV B
Other: APC S-15s; Crestron
Sources and Video: Ran out of characters .....................
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Pan-dimensional being
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Pan-dimensional being
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for example, as there those here who believe that the benefits of a sound engineered room are not worth the incremental/huge cost and that a Meridian system with properly calibrated DSP speakers would provide 85% to 90% of the benefit at a fraction of the cost because, should this be the case, then this would clearly be *THE* route to go... Anyone claiming this does not know what he/she is talking about. Jaco, appreciate the comment noting that seem to be firmly planted in the camp that suggests that the benefit / cost of a sound engineered room are well worth the incremental dollars..
Audio: Triad Monitor Golds, Surround Golds, Silver Subwoofers; Procella P-18 Subwoofer; QSC DCA 16622s, 1644, 3422, BASIS 922uz; ADA MACH IV B
Other: APC S-15s; Crestron
Sources and Video: Ran out of characters .....................
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Pan-dimensional being
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Pan-dimensional being
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Joel, 1. By the looks of it, you have faith in Mr. Grimani and you really want to continue with him. Faith/good feeling in a builder/designer when doing work on a house is ofcourse a big plus. 2. His initial proposal is too steep. So discuss this with him. Tell him you have x amount to spent and he should design a system for that amount. Very simple actually 3. Focus on the room first. I see a big list of equipment, but what about the room? 4. Reuse some of your current equipment? Robbo, great minds think alike as this is exactly what is being done...the two key questiosn with this approach are: 1. How much will the cost savings compromise the end result...a question for Mr. Grimani to answer; and 2. Pending the answer to 1. should consideration be given to spending 2X -- as large as a sum as this is -- to call it day, build MY ultimate room, at a cost not only of money but also in time as this will take 12 to 18 months to build as I refuse to borrow money for a home theatre.. As far as reusing existing kit all existing kit is being reused...the current / old speakers are in the family room as they too are in-wall..
Audio: Triad Monitor Golds, Surround Golds, Silver Subwoofers; Procella P-18 Subwoofer; QSC DCA 16622s, 1644, 3422, BASIS 922uz; ADA MACH IV B
Other: APC S-15s; Crestron
Sources and Video: Ran out of characters .....................
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 959
Pan-dimensional being
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Pan-dimensional being
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I tentatively reply to this post as I'm not actually what the op is asking. However I see simalarities with a number of design industries where big (or 'bigged up') names get involved - I have no idea who your designer is but I assume he fits into one of these categories. Correct, he was a "big wig" at Dolby Labs... What I witness is that when a large budget is available then the designer starts to 'experiment' at the clients expense which basically means that the designer is no longer the expert they once were so things like budgets rapidly get out of hand or become difficult to estimate accurately.
I do not know if this is what has happened in your case but if may be worth asking the designer to base his design on more convential principles where things are tried and tested and costs are easier to accurately predict. I do not think that this has happened as everything that is asked is explained in layman terms and, to me, seems reasonable...again and as you note, one of the problems is that I am not an acoustic engineer and therefore can not be sure but can only go by my gut which tells me that he and his company are nothing but honest and employ time tested and prooven approaches... It may be that your designer is a primadonna and has a hissie fit or they may just modify their design to bring costs back under control. Quite the opposite as they are working diligently with me in addressing the budgetary concerns...whether they get there or not remains to be seen...
Last edited by Joelc; 2010-01-08 16:46.
Audio: Triad Monitor Golds, Surround Golds, Silver Subwoofers; Procella P-18 Subwoofer; QSC DCA 16622s, 1644, 3422, BASIS 922uz; ADA MACH IV B
Other: APC S-15s; Crestron
Sources and Video: Ran out of characters .....................
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Pan-dimensional being
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Pan-dimensional being
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I suggest that this comes back to customer requirements and budget.
You are the customer and you set the budget and describe what you want to achieve. Your supplier has tendered what looks like a Rolls-Royce solution. I suggest you now engage with them to eliminate costs while minimising the impact on your desired outcome. For example, how many surround speakers and subs could be removed while still leaving a broad and deep frontal sound-stage to match the picture. How many people will typically occupy the room for viewings rather than design for the maximum, etc. All this is typical in my world of IT solution procurement and any commercially-minded supplier should jump at the chance to refine their pitch to get the sale. I'm afraid it won't happen in a satisfactory manner without that detailed engagement and refinement.
To my mind there is too much surround and sub in the proposed solution. I have no idea of the quality of the actual kit but, if I understand the Canadian$:� exhcange rate correctly, you could get a lot of very good Meridian DSPs for that money that would perform very well with the help of electronic room ccorrection.
I absolutely support the approach of getting the worst of the room fixed early. My under-construction "entertainment lounge" was designed with under-floor damping and relaid boards to eliminate springiness and echo, the curtain were selected for their sound-damping and light-blocking capabilities, the electrics were laid to be separate from the domestics and to provide multiple outlets on discrete labelled spurs in the right places. None of this was driven by anything other than just good basic perparation and a very understanding builder. Your supplier should do this stuff out of the box. Gianni, I appreciate the input and time taken to respond to this thread...as far as responding to your particular posting I beleive that this has largely been covered off in my above response to Ian... Regarding the f/x rate it is in the order of CAD 1.00 = GBP 0.610 Thanks so much...
Audio: Triad Monitor Golds, Surround Golds, Silver Subwoofers; Procella P-18 Subwoofer; QSC DCA 16622s, 1644, 3422, BASIS 922uz; ADA MACH IV B
Other: APC S-15s; Crestron
Sources and Video: Ran out of characters .....................
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Pan-dimensional being
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Pan-dimensional being
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Joel,
From rereading this thread it appears that (please correct me if I have misread or misunderstood):
1. You have hired Tony Grimani to design the room and spec equipment.
2. You are happy with the design and the the equipment spec, including price of equipment.
3. You got a quote on the construction of the room and it was WAY more than Grimani or your integrator thought it was going to be. You did say the construction cost were 80% of the overage
Now, considering that the price of the Triad packages listed range from $50,000 to more than $100,000, and you are doing a custom design and not a package,I assume that your equipment price is in the 6 figures.
Therefore, the construction price must be way up there too.
Since you already have a room that you want to remodel, you will not be building a foundation, roof, load bearing walls, etc. I am having trouble understanding how remodeling a room, even if you go with a complete room in room construction, could cost so much. I can see that if you have a really large room, and want really fancy wood work and finishes the price can get up there. Add a wet bar, etc, etc etc and even more expense.
What in the design of the room is costing so much, and can that design be simplified so that you have a sound proof and treated room at less expense? Thanks...you hit the nail on the head as the room is not large (i.e. 19 feet by 12 feet), there is no wet bar, there is no terribly fancy mill work, etc... You have further hit the nail on the head in terms of the finishing; that is, what finishings can be eliminated / scaled down so that the audio and video are not compormised...
Last edited by Joelc; 2010-01-08 16:54.
Audio: Triad Monitor Golds, Surround Golds, Silver Subwoofers; Procella P-18 Subwoofer; QSC DCA 16622s, 1644, 3422, BASIS 922uz; ADA MACH IV B
Other: APC S-15s; Crestron
Sources and Video: Ran out of characters .....................
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 959
Pan-dimensional being
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Pan-dimensional being
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 959 |
I reckon that the 80% overage means the construction costs are coming in at 80% more than expected??
So, if they were meant to be in the $30k region they are coming in at aroudn $55k???
Which is putting the project out of budget and out of reach? Correct...
Audio: Triad Monitor Golds, Surround Golds, Silver Subwoofers; Procella P-18 Subwoofer; QSC DCA 16622s, 1644, 3422, BASIS 922uz; ADA MACH IV B
Other: APC S-15s; Crestron
Sources and Video: Ran out of characters .....................
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Posts: 959
Pan-dimensional being
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Pan-dimensional being
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Update....
For those interested the last 7 to 10 days have been spent in dicsussions with both the designer and my local integrator with the end result being that we have managed to shave a significant amount off of the original estimate...for those that do not remember the original estimate was 200% of the communicated budget with the most recent estimate being 133% of the communicated budget which, while more expensive that initially desired, is within range...
The principal savings come from the following:
1. Changing the finishings in the room but doing so in a fashion such that should their be a desire and funds to allow the finishing can be brought back up to their initial level. Examples include i) removal of the "bar table" and stools which were to act as a third row of seats ii) removal of the wood columns and sconces from the side and back walls (not a big sconce fan in any event) iii) replacing wrapping the room with an acoustic fabric with well nothing iv) the removal of a sound proof door and its replacement with a solid wood door (this is a $3,000 savings)...
A little more on iii) above is that initially the acoustic panels were to covered / wrapped with a framing system that would hold the stretch acoustic fabric...the current proposal which saves huge dollars is to use EQUALLY EFFECTIVE AND AESTHETICALLY PLEASING acosutic panels with no wrapping...this savings resulting from this approach is in the order of $20,000 to $30,000. And yes, I got multiple quotes for the room wrapping and it is a huge cost!
2. Changing the equipment in the room. Examples of which include the replacement of 9 smaller subs with two large subs for a total of 4 large subs, the replacement of non-comercial amplifiers with comercial amplifiers to drive the remaining subs (not an issue in terms of noise as there is a separate sound isolated equipment room), etc...
Now the interesting thing about all of these changes is that I am told that they will result in no compromise of either the audio quality or the video quality so basically I get i) the same quality room in terms of audio and video ii) the ability to better finish / improve the rooms aesthetics should I so decide down the road and iii) the extra cash in the bank...all in all, not bad...
The one issue that remains is the projector as my current projector -- Marantz VP-11S2 -- which I very much like does not have sufficient brightness given the screen size and throw distance...the projector which I am leaning towards is a JVC RS-15 (i.e. no need for the video adjustments inthe RS-25 as I have a Lumagen RadianceXE) but:
1. This projector is "one to avoid" per an e-mail with the designer (that said, I do have a telecon later today to undersatnd why); and
2. The projectors that are being recommended are all lamp based and fairly costly (i.e. Runco VX300d Ultra, Sim2 Lumis Host, etc.) which has me somewhat concerned because a large projector expenditure with a) LED with more lumens around ther corner (okay, perhaps 2 years away), b) 3D viewing around the corner (although I do hate the thought of wearing glasses) and c) 4K projectors at an afordable price within the next 2 to 3 years
With that I am unclear as to which way to go between perhaps simply compromising (at least in the designer's eyes) with a JVC (or other simialr price point projector) for the next 2 years or spending the extra money on one of the projectors they are recommending.
Would appreciate thoughts about the projector direction as well as any and all commentary about the "design/room" changes to get back / closer to the original budget...
Thanks in advance...
Audio: Triad Monitor Golds, Surround Golds, Silver Subwoofers; Procella P-18 Subwoofer; QSC DCA 16622s, 1644, 3422, BASIS 922uz; ADA MACH IV B
Other: APC S-15s; Crestron
Sources and Video: Ran out of characters .....................
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President of the Imperial Galactic Government
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President of the Imperial Galactic Government
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IMHO, if it was me, I would put off the projector choice until the room is built. Things will then be cheaper and better and there may well be more choice. I don't know the choice of the projectors you are talking, but my experience is that it is cheaper to wait until you get what you want, rather than jump in early and then unnecessarily upgrade. If when the room is finished the ideal projector is still 6 months, year etc away, then buy a cheap projector or one with good resale value (even if you have to mount it temporarily on a table) to tide you over and make the final choice when all the pieces are in place.
I know that alot of custom stuff is made to measure with tight tolerances so this may not be possible, but I am sure that the design can be made to take this into account.
Meridian owner since 1992
Prime & PSU, Focal Elear headphones, Roon (ROCK 8Gi5 NUC), Explorer 1 & 2, F80. 200/203, various Sonos (via Roon).
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