Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems Sub woofers, Sub Bass Systems and Crossovers....

http://www.snapbug.ws/sinewaves/
There's also a spreadsheet on the main site which corrects for the inaccuracies in the typical Radio Shack / Tandy SPL meter.

Thanks so much- thats very interesting.

Jaymac,
My bro-in-law has a REL used in a simple analogue 2-ch set similarly connected parallel with the speakers terminals. The blend achieved with just a little setup is quite stunning. It adds greatly to the performance of the B&W standmounters.

So, much the same in principal as you posted

Nick

Is it my understanding that if you set the sub to LFE and the center and surrounds to small and mains to large the crossover will not work?

I believe that is the case.

Given all the support, advice and comment that my cry for help excited, it feels polite to offer a view of where I've got to. Firstly, thanks to everyone who commented. There's a lot of practical information that has helped me get established and there'äs a lot more which has got me thinking or interested in investigating further.

Currently, I've moved the Stadium inside the right main speaker and close to the centre channel and TV. I can't report a big difference in the positional move - it was outside the right main - but it does very well there. I've set all the D5k's to small 96/24's and have the sub configured as mono. Crossover is currently 45Hz but has been 40Hz. It seems about the right level. I calibrated using a Radio Shack SPL meter and have spent a few evenings - not enough as work got in the way - listening to the system. I have some music that I play a lot to help hear the effects of change: one is Saint Saen's Organ Symphony and another is the soundtrack of 1492 by Vangelis. Other CD's that have taken a bit of a hit include overtures by Wagner, Leftfield's "Leftism", the Matrix Reloaded soundtrack, piano concertos by Beethoven and most of the Jonny Cash American recordings. No, I haven't slept much...

So, the position to date: The system sounds wonderful. Most of the time I'm unaware of the Stadium specifically but am very aware of a strengthened and heightened sound stage. There seems to be yet more detail and clarity but no "tightness" - it's something I think Nick hinted at in his experoience with D5k's.

The Stadium is clearly apparent when it contributes beneath the D5K's and it really is impressive. I played the opening scenes of Gladiator (until the Management Committee confiscated it) and it's truly stunning. Overall, I feel I've got a fairly seamless integration.

I know from the posts on this thread that I have a heck of a lot to learn - including how to adjust SPL levels with the meter held away from my body, the Meridan remote one handed and not much support from the above mentioned MC. How can Meridian design such stunning equipment, be so cognizant and invest so much intellect and competence in software and not employ or consult an ergonomics specialist?!

I'm getting there with set up but have a way to go to feel in command of SPLs and Phase. Mudge's comments were interesting in that regard. I'm going to try a few more subs before I buy. One though was to try two smaller ones to go with the mains but I now intend to go for one larger one. I'm looking for real authority and presence underneath the D5k's with the kind of music I've mentioned above and a lot more besides.

The Rel Stentor 3 is on my list and, if possible I'll try the Martin Logan Descent. Does anyone know of Genelec's subs? Living in Finland, it's sensible to try them. Their brochure shows a model 7070A but it is not on their web site that I can see.

Thanks again to all. It's a lot of fun when music sounds this good (and you know it can only get better).

Steve

I have some experience of the Genelec HTS4 and can confirm this is a very nice subwoofer for the money. The HTS6 is supposed to be even better.

Steve,
Im glad its working out for you. Its fun when it all comes together.

Steve,

Sounds like it's doing the business !

I also enjoy immensely the Gladiator soundtrack....huge! Leftism is a great disc also. If you have Leftfield Rhythm & Stealth, try track 5 El Cid - it has a whopper of a bass synth riff that is great for checking out your x-overs and be warned it goes very very low. If you don't have it, I would highly recommend.

Cheers

Nick

Earlier in this thread, Jerry said,

"The way Meridian works bass management is mostly as follows

small- allows you to select a cross over and the rolled off bass goes to the sub, or any speakers designated as large if there is no sub present.

large- no roll off at all. You can use the protection circuit for analog speakers. I believe the DSP speakers have a version of the protection circuit in it. what this circuit does is allow the full frequency range to be played- as volume increases, the circuit attempts to limit dynamic range (difference between loudest and softest moments) so as to protect the drivers in the speaker.

Mono sub- this means all the rolled off bass from any speaker designated as small goes here plus any LFE channel

LFE sub- only LFE goes to the sub- nothing else

No sub- rolled off bass from small speakers goes to any speaker designated as large. lfe goes to those speakers as well. no large speaker and no sub, I thnk then you lose that rolled off bass and I dont know where the LFE goes."


Now here is my situation. I recently upgraded from Nautilus 804s and HTM1 speakers in an L-C-R configuration to 3 Gallo Reference 3 speakers in an L-C-R configuration. I was crossing over the 804s/HTM1 on my 861v4 at 65Hz with a Velodyne DD-15, which sounded great. When I upgraded to the Gallo speakers, the bass sound was way off. The bass was thicker, slower, and muddy. I fooled with the EQ on the DD-15 for hours on end with no improvement. Then I tried to lower the crossover on the 861 from 65 to 55 to 45 to 35 hertz. Each time I discovered the bass became faster and more musical. Once I realized what was going on, I changed the speaker size from small to large to great effect. *** Note: the speed and bass extension of the Gallos is FAR in excess of what the 804s can provide, even though their specifications are very close. Also, the bass of the Gallos is FAR faster than the Velodyne DD-15, which is very disappointing considering what the DD-15 costs. ***0

I also noticed that whenever I had the left and right speakers or the left, right, and center speakers set to large with the sub set to mono, I still heard low bass (lower than what the Gallos provide) through the subwoofer with a Redbook CD (thus no LFE), which is crossed over at 30Hz. Is the 861 "copying" the 20-30Hz bass from the signal and applying it to the subwoofer? This is in contradiction to what Jerry has said above. Can anyone else verify this? I believe that even with three "large" speakers, the subwoofer crossover is still active, and thus presumably functioning; whereas with the subwoofer removed from the speaker layout, the crossover controls are grayed out and inaccessible, which makes sense.

Now my question is with regard to running my system with no subwoofer. If I set all 3 of my speakers to large, I assume that they will all get LFE bass from a DVD. But how much? Will each of the three speakers get 1/3 of the LFE or will all speakers get the same LFE bass signal, which would amount to 3x the total amount of LFE signal present in the source? I would like to believe that each speaker would receive 1/3 of the LFE signal for 3 speakers, 1/5 of the LFE signal for 5 speakers and 1/7 of the LFE signal for seven speakers, but Jerry has mentioned hearing too much bass in his full range digital speaker system. Could this be because the LFE is not divided equally?

If I remove the subwoofer, how many "large" speakers would I need to approximate the LFE output of the missing subwoofer?

If I remove the subwoofer, should I check the "Off" box on the crossover page for 5.1 LFE and Music LFE as well? Or will this be grayed out when I remove the sub from Music, Logic, and LFE settings?

Any insight is greatly appreciated.

Damon

If Jerry's system was available in the 1970's, it would have been ahead of Concorde in the queue of noisy things to ban. 5 x DSP8000's from what I recall.

Damon,

Partial answers to your Q's: In a n.0 system with 'Large' speakers, the MC LFE content is sent (I believe) to the Main L/R only, not to any other Large speakers, so you can't work-out an 'optimum' number of Large speakers to replicate the sub level. Of course, taking the sub out disables the ability to indepenently alter the LFE content level relative to the other speakers - you're basically stuck with the abilities of your Main L/R speakers. Taking the sub out of the speaker array will cause the Xover box(es) to be greyed-out. My understanding of the M bass management is that Mono does give bass duplication below the Xover point with other speakers set to Large - in the G68 literature, M indicates this is not optimum. Centre setting is the alternative - with the MConfig with the G68, this automatically sets the centre speaker to Small.

Hope this helps (a little).

Andy