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#47877 - 2006-12-16 21:36 Re: BR Is the King OF HD.
Registered: 2003-06-01
Posts: 675
Kenliles Offline
Paranoid android
Kenliles Offline
Paranoid android

Registered: 2003-06-01
Posts: 675
Loc: Celebration, Florida, USA
George and others interested-
Found a definitve explanation:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/406hook/

specific to George's ?:
"The HD-DVD format specifications mandate the use of Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus. BD specs require the original Dolby Digital and allow Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus as an option."
"BD and HD-DVD both mandate the original DTS we've come to know and love on standard-definition DVDs. The other elements of the DTS-HD package are optional but tantalizing."

ken

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#47878 - 2006-12-16 22:04 Re: BR Is the King OF HD.
Registered: 2004-04-01
Posts: 541
DanielB Offline
Paranoid android
DanielB Offline
Paranoid android

Registered: 2004-04-01
Posts: 541
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
I do not believe people buy these video game consoles to watch movies- I am not talking about the early adopters here, I am talking about the typical consumer. The people who moaned when they switched from their VHS to DVD. Yes, we celebrated- they moaned. We have different priorities than the mass market.
A common belief at the moment is that Sony will certainly lose their position as number one in the games market, at least as far as the new generation of consoles is concerned (the PS2 actually continues to sell in huge numbers). History is not scared of repeating itself in the games industry, and Sony`s arrogance, along with an overpriced games console - since that is indeed all gamers see it as - is really throwing them into the same rut that got Nintendo and SEGA into an awful lot of trouble in the late 1990s (which resulted in them losing out to the original Playstation at the time ironically enough). This won`t mean the PS3 will be a failure by any stretch of the imagination, as the brand name remains too strong, but where they will be in the games industry six to eight years from now when these companies deem it time to bring out a new wave of consoles will be interesting to see. There were some analysts recently who predicted this would in fact lead to there being no Playstation4, but these soothsayers change their opinions on a weekly basis.

It`s difficult to gauge how much of a sure thing Bluray`s exclusive Hollywood backers consider the PS3 to actually be. I`m not sure whether they`re dumb enough to believe millions will use it for hi-def movies, or that they accept only a miniscule percentage of so many millions owners might do so, which may be all they want if they`re just hoping the PS3 could act as a springboard for the format and ensure a user base of a few hundred thousand consistently buying Bluray movies via the PS3 whilst simultaneously raising public awareness of the Bluray format alongside sales of standalone players to keep things afloat.

The Xbox 360`s HD DVD add on drive faces a similar conundrum. Microsoft have managed to ship 45,000 of the drives in the US alone in November, which combined with previous sales of Toshiba A1 and XA1 players probably brings the total of HD DVD players in use to an estimated 130,000 (150,000 at most I`d wager), but will sales of the drive continue and be consistent over the Christmas period and into 2007? I`m not too sure. My belief is that both the 360`s add on drive, and the PS3 will give each format a nudge, but by no means will they dictate the outcome of either HD format`s success.

Quote:
I truly believe that the mass market will not care about the PS3 engineering beauty- which apparently is like comparing a Porsche to a pick up in the case of the XBox. What people care about is doing the job- in which case the pick up works just fine. And how many people really have the ability to see the graphic difference between these two consoles? I doubt many do or care. They want to play the hot games. As a non gamer I don`t know what they are anymore.
The real argument amongst gamers when comparing the PS3 to the Xbox 360 is really driven by content. Exclusive content really drives band loyalty amongst gamers both in the East and the West. What`s interesting is a single game can cost tens of millions of dollars to produce now, and for a lot of developers and publishers they cannot ignore the fact that releasing their games on multiple formats is better for them as independent companies.

Aside from the DS and the Wii, which are platforms so unique they command versions of games you simply can`t play elsewhere on another machine, many developers are thinking long and hard before throwing all their eggs into one basket as far as the PS3 and 360 go, since the hardware performance is so strikingly similar. As a consequence we`re seeing some major game brands like the Grand Theft Auto series, Pro Evolution Soccer and others drawing themselves away from becoming synonymous with the Playstation and becoming multi-format brands. This means a key draw of these consoles for many gamers in deciding to buy one over the other is first party content, content produced under the banners of Microsoft and Sony. It`s not like either company was unaware of this change in the industry either, as both, particularly Microsoft, have been quick in recent years to buy out existing developers (Microsoft bought Rare and Lionhead for example). This basically expands their arsenal of exclusive content. If a gamer wants the Halo series for example, there`s only one place they can turn.

What`s interesting is how many former exclusives created by independent developers the Playstation brand is losing altogether. The biggest RPG games series in Japan is a wonderful series called Dragon Quest. The 7th game had surfaced on the original Playstation, the 8th on the Playstation 2 and so naturally the world expected the 9th installment to come to the Playstation 3. Instead, it`s actually coming to the Nintendo DS. It`s amazing how Nintendo`s back to basics approach in putting fun backing into gaming is paying off. As a gamer I couldn`t be more delighted as the Wii and DS are reaching out to such a wide audience. There`s clearly a shift amongst existing gamers in what they want now, and the Playstation3 will find it hard to be a dominant when many might consider the combination of a Wii and a 360 suitable to cover all their gaming desires.


Quote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe that Sony has the most to lose by a very wide margin. If BD fails, then the Playstation line takes a massive hit as well. Sony would essentially be looking destitute if BD was to fail.
Far from it. The PS3 is pretty exempt from Bluray failing if you think about it. The console is a high demand product that will ship in the millions, which will consequently drive component costs down, and BD-Rom disc replication will always be active regardless of whether Bluray fails as a movie delivery format or not due to the fact all PS3 games are being manufactured to Bluray discs. Granted these replication costs would drop even faster and be even more attractive for Sony and games publishers if Bluray in general is a success in areas outside of the Playstation 3, but the console itself can probably do enough to sustain its manufacturing in a way not to dissimilar to that of the PS2 (i.e. not actually make a profit on hardware for at least five years into its life, but instead make its money from sales of games and accessories).

With the exception of the Gamecube, the Wii, and the DS all from Nintendo, consoles like the Xbox, the PS2, and now the PSP, Xbox 360 and PS3 are made and sold with the acceptance they`re not going to make a profit on the hardware sales for many, many years. Instead, the revenue comes from the software and for PS3 games we`re talking millions of BD-Roms being replicated so I really don`t foresee them running into any real trouble if Bluray fails for movies.

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#47879 - 2006-12-16 22:17 Re: BR Is the King OF HD.
Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,450
GMT Offline
Working on the ultimate question
GMT Offline
Working on the ultimate question

Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,450
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, UK
Daniel

Thanks for responding to my earlier post in such detail, it was a very interesting read for this non-gamer.

It would be intersting to see if a killer game or lack of one helps to shape the future of HD.

Tom


Main: G61 SL, 218 HD621, 2* 7200SE, 5200HC, DSW,3200s,SBT, PS4, Amazon TV Fire, Dune Base 3.0, Xbox, NUC (Roon server & Kodi)
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Office: A330i, G41, Explorer2,Velodyne CT120
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#47880 - 2006-12-16 23:11 Re: BR Is the King OF HD.
Registered: 2004-04-01
Posts: 541
DanielB Offline
Paranoid android
DanielB Offline
Paranoid android

Registered: 2004-04-01
Posts: 541
Loc: London, UK
Glad my rambling is proving to be of some relevance, Tom. What`s interesting is consoles like the 360 and Playstation3 are at the very least spurring sales of HDTVs, perhaps more than any other HD device in the Western markets. I know in Europe certainly where HDTV is in its infancy these machines are proving to be a biggest drive I adoption of HD ready displays. Although certainly they can be played on standard definition sets, games on both platforms mandate 720p as a standard output resolution (some PS3 games will even offer 1080p). So whether having bought a new console and an HDTV to go with it will encourage gamers to buy movies in HD will be interesting to see. That`s not to say hi-def games is a primary selling point amongst gamers however, as I think the Wii proves.

The Wii is in fact a console not capable of anything more than 480p output and you can`t find one on the shelves at the moment for love nor money, so HD and top end graphics are by no means everything to the gaming majority. Still, you may have noticed Microsoft have taken to advertising the core model 360 as an ‘entry into hi def gaming for under £200,` and all 360 and PS3 demonstration ‘pods` in shops are connected to hi def LCD displays, so clearly from a marketing perspective it is very important and it`s fuelling desire for new displays amongst gamers. This is why I think the Xbox and Playstation certainly can shape the future of the HD formats, but probably not decide it.

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#47881 - 2006-12-16 23:39 Re: BR Is the King OF HD.
Registered: 2003-06-01
Posts: 675
Kenliles Offline
Paranoid android
Kenliles Offline
Paranoid android

Registered: 2003-06-01
Posts: 675
Loc: Celebration, Florida, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by DanielB:
[QUOTE]

It`s difficult to gauge how much of a sure thing Bluray`s exclusive Hollywood backers consider the PS3 to actually be. I`m not sure whether they`re dumb enough to believe millions will use it for hi-def movies, or that they accept only a miniscule percentage of so many millions owners might do so, which may be all they want if they`re just hoping the PS3 could act as a springboard for the format and ensure a user base of a few hundred thousand consistently buying Bluray movies via the PS3 whilst simultaneously raising public awareness of the Bluray format alongside sales of standalone players to keep things afloat.

Good read and interesting analysis from the gaming side of things Daniel. Relating to games is often difficult for us old timers!

Regarding the above quote - I agree it's a hard issue to guage. I try to put myself in their shoes. If we accept the studios are fairly self centric, as displayed by their copyright behavior; I think they will look at the PS3 market in total, assuming all owners are potential markets for their product - In their hearts, they just can't not (yes a double negative) believe that everybody wants their movies regardless of why someone bought the device initially.

This culture makes marketing budgets large for BD, even if not well thought out; I see it now already in the marketplace and at the trade shows. The biggest advantage of BD IMO is not the technology, but simply the large number of 'parties-of-interest'; Sony, CE companies invested, and studio hunger for revenue outlets of movies.

After all, it was BD that had the agreed format consortium first; HD-DVD was the break-off format. It's done a great job so far, but has fewer champions to drive it home. No company really depends on it for substantial revenue and so allocation of internal marketing and other budgets become anemic...

Just some thoughts - thanks for your well thought out replies related to the gaming side; I find it interesting indeed....

ken

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#47882 - 2006-12-17 12:02 Re: BR Is the King OF HD.
Registered: 2001-11-14
Posts: 2,140
Meridialien Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
Meridialien Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2001-11-14
Posts: 2,140
Loc: Ireland
" consoles like the Xbox, the PS2, and now the PSP, Xbox 360 and PS3 are made and sold with the acceptance they`re not going to make a profit on the hardware sales for many, many years"

Ive always wondered about this given that Sony have already announced the PS4 for 2010 ! Is it possible to make a 'hardware' profit in such a short window of opportunity ?

Jerry makes some valid points about Sony. If M were to acquire the brand and change its name profits and formats would very likely soar wink

Sony have acquired all the 'corporation blubber' that will prevent them from actually winning yet another format war IMO. A 'Universal player' tie seems more likely . Ineffective management and occasionally downright insulting behaviour towards their customers has made them look like they are trying to run a marathon underwater.....

Long may it continue laugh

~M~


Mostly harmless. Comfortably numb.
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#47883 - 2006-12-17 12:43 Re: BR Is the King OF HD.
Registered: 2006-09-04
Posts: 148
Keep it Simple Offline
Hitchhiker
Keep it Simple Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2006-09-04
Posts: 148
Quote:
Far from it. The PS3 is pretty exempt from Blu Ray failing if you think about it. The console is a high demand product that will ship in the millions, which will consequently drive component costs down, and BD-Rom disc replication will always be active regardless of whether Blu Ray fails as a movie delivery format or not due to the fact all PS3 games are being manufactured to Blu Ray discs.
You seem to be forgetting one teeny-weeny factor - Sony cannot justify a $600 price point on games alone. If you think that the price is not a significant obstacle, then just wait until next year when they STILL cannot demonstrate why they are so much more expensive than X360. And as for Wii, it looks like they have a winner. Nothing we have seen so far can justify the PS3's price.

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#47884 - 2006-12-17 13:43 Re: BR Is the King OF HD.
Registered: 2000-05-29
Posts: 2,379
JerryL Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
JerryL Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2000-05-29
Posts: 2,379
Loc: NYC Metro Area, USA
What's interesting to me is that I have tried playing computer games at resolutions far in excess of HD. I have a mac pro (awesome machine btw) and I use boot camp to play the EA sports games. I can play them at the full 2560x1620 res. They look fantastic on my LCD computer screen. To my eyes 1920x1080 for a computer game blown up on a bigger screen will look soft.

What I have observed here, and that is just a combination of reading articles and talking with friends and family, is that many are connecting the PS3/ 360 to regular SD tvs. I think a lot of people thing they are getting the full HD image when they don't even have the display capability to see it.

Manus- great idea, but I can only wish M could acquire Sony. If it were to be, we all know it would be the other way around. This COULD be a match made in heaven because imagine Sony with real high end product to sell, M to have more financial stability behind it- and I think M might have some perspective that would be fresh to Sony. But the risk is M is simply gobbled up and that the people (the real value to M IMHO) are ignored. frown

As to Sony making a profit- my understanding is the game consoles have a life of several years- how long between PS2 and 3? 6 years or so? They expect to lose money in the first few years and then to turn it into a profit center later in life because component costs come down from the fact that they are no longer cutting edge and economies of scale. However, Sony is in bad times right now- and they need the PS3 to be not just a hit, but a massive, grand slam home run- NOW. And it does not seem to be that.

best regards,
Jerry


Best regards,
Jerry
Main System: 861v6, DSP8000s in corners, DSP7000s Center and Sides, 1-9 humans.
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#47885 - 2006-12-17 13:46 Re: BR Is the King OF HD.
Registered: 2003-01-29
Posts: 55
RLiddell Offline
Mostly harmless
RLiddell Offline
Mostly harmless

Registered: 2003-01-29
Posts: 55
Loc: Valrico, Florida, USA
Ah, as I've read through this whole thread (which has been great by the way) a couple of items seem to be recurring. The main two seem to be that the PS3, and by default BD, seems to be aimed squarely at the soul of serious gamers. Hence the complaints about the price of the console. Face it, we as a group have spent many times the cost of a PS3 console upgrading things like speaker wires and interconnects! If this product was aimed at us at a $600 price point (and it did everything that we wanted it to do), we would heartily embrace the PS3. Are the serious gamers, even though they have the capability to play BD's, going to go out and drop $35-37US on a first release movie that they might watch once, when for $60US they can purchase the latest video game that could keep them busy for weeks and maybe even months?

It is my opinion that the HDDVD camp seems to have marketed their format and products to us, the ones who takes the HD format for what it was intended, a significant advancement it the quality of audio and video playback. Then they did it at a reasonable price point which also makes it easier to embrace.

My boys play video games, I do not. The only reason that I would even remotely consider purchasing a game console to watch BD, would be for the ability for them to play games. But that, in and of itself, could come with unintended consequences, i.e. losing the use of the home theaterwhile they play their games! I was intending to purchase a stand-alone BD player over Christmas, until I went to Sound Advice to see the Sony machine in operation. They had Fifth Element playing on a 60" Sony SXRD display and the picture was awful. I kow I've read that the Fifth Element is not a good transfer, but I've watch that movie so many times that I just could not overlook the video noise and artifacts that I saw, especially on the very white scenes. I will stay on the sidelines until they can get their act together.

Just my two cents!

Rudy


G68ADV, DSP5500's, DSP5500HC, DSP5000's, Sony Ruby, DVDO, VP-30
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#47886 - 2006-12-17 13:51 Re: BR Is the King OF HD.
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,385
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic

Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,385
Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
If the Sony presentation at Cedia is anything to go by, Sony has serious "executive bloat". I'm not sure if anyone saw this, but I was on the floor with the amateur "Over to you Jim. Thanks Bob" corporate presentation. Clearly the audiance were having a right old laugh too at some of the preposterous claims. It was almost as if the execs were in denial.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#47887 - 2006-12-17 15:02 Re: BR Is the King OF HD.
Registered: 2003-06-01
Posts: 675
Kenliles Offline
Paranoid android
Kenliles Offline
Paranoid android

Registered: 2003-06-01
Posts: 675
Loc: Celebration, Florida, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by VirusKiller:
I'm not sure if anyone saw this,
I saw it; Could barely make myself stay more than a few minutes... It was a little sad acutally from the company that invented The Walkman; I do love the Sony Ruby - good job on that one Sony...

ken

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#47888 - 2006-12-17 18:45 Re: BR Is the King OF HD.
Registered: 2004-04-01
Posts: 541
DanielB Offline
Paranoid android
DanielB Offline
Paranoid android

Registered: 2004-04-01
Posts: 541
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
I've always wondered about this given that Sony have already announced the PS4 for 2010 ! Is it possible to make a 'hardware' profit in such a short window of opportunity ?
It is possible yes, assuming the console sells well enough over a period of years. The PS2 has been in profit for a good while now, and continues to outsell even new consoles like the 360 and PS3. Interestingly Microsoft appear to be ahead of targets to cut the cost of building the 360 and are already, one year after it launched, making around $70 per console sold, though this probably results in them breaking even on all consoles sold this winter as they have apparently been offering bonuses to retailers for every 360 sold which has saved Microsoft the bother of lowering the console's actual selling price this year.

Quote:
You seem to be forgetting one teeny-weeny factor - Sony cannot justify a $600 price point on games alone. If you think that the price is not a significant obstacle, then just wait until next year when they STILL cannot demonstrate why they are so much more expensive than X360.
That rather ties in with the points I was making though. I think you're underestimating just how well it will still sell as a games console even at it's two $499 and $599 price points because the Playstation brand name can still easily manipulate its loyal followers (of which there are millions in the world) into making them continue to want such a desirable product and its exclusive catalogue of games that will eventually surface. It won't be number one, but it will sell in great numbers regardless. Sony can probably go a good twelve to fifteen months before suffering too badly and dropping the price. The 360 &#8211; and possibly Wii &#8211; will cost less to buy this time next year so the competition will drive PS3 prices down, and Sony will drop the price even if it results in them taking an even greater loss on hardware sales than they already are since, like I say, software is where the real money is in the first four to five years in the life of a modern console.


Quote:
If the Sony presentation at Cedia is anything to go by, Sony has serious "executive bloat". I'm not sure if anyone saw this, but I was on the floor with the amateur "Over to you Jim. Thanks Bob" corporate presentation. Clearly the audiance were having a right old laugh too at some of the preposterous claims. It was almost as if the execs were in denial.
The same thing happened at E3 (Electronics Entertainment Expo) in May when they announced launch plans for the PS3. They came to the stage showing a sub par lineup of games for the launch window, announcing those prices, showing off motion control in joypads clearly stolen from Nintendo at the eleventh hour and implemented far less creatively as a consequence and had the audacity to shout &#8220;the next generation of gaming does not start until we say it does!&#8221;

There have been shake ups amongst Sony Computer Entertainment, their electronics and home entertainment divisions in the latter half of this year. Whether re-shuffling of certain executives, and the outright firing of others, results in a better 2007 for the company as far as their public image is concerned remains to be seen.

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