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#288624 - 2019-10-31 13:59 Roon to SE DSP's - MQA display
Registered: 2010-12-09
Posts: 3,835
Ratbert Offline
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Ratbert Offline
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Registered: 2010-12-09
Posts: 3,835
Loc: Europe
My question is with Roon not doing the MQA decode and passing the file to an 818v3 to decode and forward to DSP SE's (running 4.14 fw) speakers to render, I would expect to see MQA and the resolution displayed on the speaker display.

If I change the Roon setup; so Roon does the first decode instead of the 818 but nothing else, no headroom management, DSP or Room correction etc. and then passes the decoded file to the DSP SE speakers I thought you would see OF (original frequency) on the display, but I suspect you will actually see MQA and the resolution displayed as when the 818v3 does the decode?

If you were to add Room correction etc. then I think you will see OF on the SE display.

If this is the case then it suggests a flag in MQA is set after decode in Roon that identifies the MQA file as authenticated and passed through the 818v3 this is recognised by the DSP SE’s and rendered accordingly, adding DSP, Room correction etc. changes the original file causing the authenticated flag to be unset therefore giving the OF display on the SE speakers

Am I correct in my thinking, anyone with the relevant equipment prepared to test?

Russ


If you give a man a fish he will eat for a day. But if you teach a man to fish he will buy an ugly hat. And if you talk about fish to a starving man then you are a consultant.
—————————————
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#288628 - 2019-10-31 17:23 Re: Roon to SE DSP's - MQA display [Re: Ratbert]
Registered: 2004-04-15
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VirusKiller Offline
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Registered: 2004-04-15
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Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
I've just run the tests with an 44k MQA Studio file.

1. MQA decoded in 818v3 = "MQA. 44k" on both the 818v3 and SEs.
2. MQA decoded by Roon, no further DSP = "OFs 44k" on both 818v3 and SEs (all Roon filters bypassed and needed to set the 818v3 as a "Renderer only" to achieve this.)
3. MQA decoded by Roon, with room correction = "OFs 44k" on both 818v3 and SEs.

The link between Roon and the ID41 is not cryptographically secure, so even if Roon did set a "bit", the 818v3 cannot trust it.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
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#288639 - 2019-10-31 18:17 Re: Roon to SE DSP's - MQA display [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2010-12-09
Posts: 3,835
Ratbert Offline
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Loc: Europe
Thanks for taking the time to do this Joel, interesting results.


If you give a man a fish he will eat for a day. But if you teach a man to fish he will buy an ugly hat. And if you talk about fish to a starving man then you are a consultant.
—————————————
If at first you don't succeed, try again. Then quit. No use being a fool about it.
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#288684 - 2019-11-02 12:04 Re: Roon to SE DSP's - MQA display [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2010-02-12
Posts: 1,859
AudioImages - Rick Offline
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Originally Posted By VirusKiller
1. MQA decoded in 818v3 = "MQA. 44k" on both the 818v3 and SEs.
2. MQA decoded by Roon, no further DSP = "OFs 44k" on both 818v3 and SEs (all Roon filters bypassed and needed to set the 818v3 as a "Renderer only" to achieve this.)
3. MQA decoded by Roon, with room correction = "OFs 44k" on both 818v3 and SEs.
Interesting, I've just run the same type of test using 210, DSP8000SE and an MQA Tidal streamed file.
I get different results..

1 and 3 are the same as you.
But 2, with 210 set as Render only, and all DSP filters off, the SE show MQA 96 (not OFs as you get with the 818?)

I thought I'd done this before and had a different result when I first read your post, so just tried it again to be sure.

This shows a difference between how 210 and 818 handles decoded MQA, very strange?

Rick


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#288686 - 2019-11-02 12:16 Re: Roon to SE DSP's - MQA display [Re: AudioImages - Rick]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,595
VirusKiller Offline
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Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,595
Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
Did you check the Roon signal path Rick? Roon doesn't do the decode if there is no other DSP and the endpoint is configured as an MQA decoder.

Edit: Just re-read. Two things (assuming that Roon *is* doing the decode in (2)):

1. I thought that the 210 needed a firmware update like the 818v3 to enable correct MQA displays in the SEs, so that is weird.

2. If the SEs are genuinely showing MQA 96, that is a bug in the 210. Once Roon does the decode, it is cryptographically impossible for the 210 to authenticate the MQA stream.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
Edited by VirusKiller; 2019-11-02 12:19.
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#288687 - 2019-11-02 12:52 Re: Roon to SE DSP's - MQA display [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2010-02-12
Posts: 1,859
AudioImages - Rick Offline
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Registered: 2010-02-12
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Yes Roon shows the signal path as changing.

With 210 as just a renderer: Source > Auth > MQA Core Decode > 210 > Output
With 210 as decode and render: Source > Auth > 210 > MQA Core Decode > Output

1) 210 started this whole firmware update in speakers and Decoders. From launch it has these features.
2) Could the scenario be that the 210 is still doing the decode, even though Roon reports Roon is doing it? (As you surmise with your *is*/)

Rick


Audio Images, 284 Glossop Road, Sheffield, England. Tel: 0114 273 7893
Website: www.audio-images.co.uk Email: Click here to email Rick
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#288692 - 2019-11-02 15:29 Re: Roon to SE DSP's - MQA display [Re: AudioImages - Rick]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,595
VirusKiller Offline
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Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,595
Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
Can you post the signal path Rick? Roon always authenticates the MQA in a side processing channel even if it passed the un-decoded MQA to the endpoint.

Edit: yes, I mistook the 210 for the 218. My bad...


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
Edited by VirusKiller; 2019-11-02 15:30.
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#288711 - 2019-11-03 14:48 Re: Roon to SE DSP's - MQA display [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2010-02-12
Posts: 1,859
AudioImages - Rick Offline
Meridian Partner Knows where his towel is
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Registered: 2010-02-12
Posts: 1,859
Loc: Sheffield, England
Originally Posted By VirusKiller
Can you post the signal path Rick? Roon always authenticates the MQA in a side processing channel even if it passed the un-decoded MQA to the endpoint.
I posted the signal path in my last post, that's what Roon was showing.


Audio Images, 284 Glossop Road, Sheffield, England. Tel: 0114 273 7893
Website: www.audio-images.co.uk Email: Click here to email Rick
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