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#287957 - 2019-09-23 17:42 Streaming from Roon (Tidal) to 861 and format change?
Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 13
Gemeni Offline
Harmless
Gemeni Offline
Harmless

Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 13
Loc: Denmark
When I stream FLAC 48 kHz 24 bit 2 ch (MQA 48 kHz) or (MQA 96 kHz) from Tidal by my ROCK NUC to 861 via HD621, the format change to PCM Movie2 96K in the 861 (display) and Dolby Digital lamp lights up, the relay is also clicking. When the stream changes from 44,1 kHz 16 bit.

When I stream FLAC 44,1 kHz 24 bit 2 ch, the 861 display [PCM Music2 88K], and no Dolby Digital lamp.

My digital audio flow is : Roon ROCK NUC >> HD621 >> 861 >> DSP5500

My questions is, how I can avoid that the 861 changes to Dolby Digital Movie2 (Lamp Lights up and the display show Data for some seconds) when I use Roon ROC NUC and 48 kHz 24 bit 2 ch (MQA 48 kHz) or (MQA 96 kHz)?

I also have a setup, connected to HD621 with Google Chromecast Ultra and there is no format change in 861 when Tidal change from FLAC 48 kHz 24 bit 2 ch (MQA 48 kHz) or (MQA 96 kHz) to 44,1 kHz 16 bit. The Display show [MHR 2-Ch 96K].

My digital audio flow is : Google Chromecast Ultra >> HD621 >> 861 >> DSP5500


Why is there MHR 2-Ch 96K only from my Google Chromecast Ultra setup?

Or have I missed something in the setup for HD621 or 861?


861v4, HD621, 2xDSP5500 24/96, DSP5500HC 24/96 (smiley face), Side surround 2xDSP3100, Rear surround Analog out to Arcam Amp and Dynaudio speakers. Velodyne DD 10 Subwoofer
Roon NUC as endpoint, QNAP with Roon Server App. Chromecast Ultra, Apple TV, Cambridge Audio BD 752, Pro-ject Pre box S2 digital, Philips Pronto remotes. Supra LoRad Power
Edited by Gemeni; 2019-09-25 08:28.
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#288004 - 2019-09-25 08:55 Re: Streaming from Roon (Tidal) to 861 and format change? [Re: Gemeni]
Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 13
Gemeni Offline
Harmless
Gemeni Offline
Harmless

Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 13
Loc: Denmark
I found out why Google Chromecast was showing [MHR 2-Ch 96K]. The reason was that the Chromecast was configured to the D1 input and not to the MD1 on my 861.
I have now switched to MD1 in the setup program for the Chromecast and then it shows [PCM Movie2 96K] for all the formats I play and the DD lamp lights up.

But from ROCK NUC it switches between:
FLAC, 44.1 kHz, 16 bit kHz shows 861 [PCM Music2 88K]
FLAC, 44.1 kHz, 24 bit, MQA, 44.1 kHz shows 861 [PCM Music2 88K]
FLAC, 48 kHz, 24 bit, MQA, 48 kHz shows 861 [PCM Movie2 96K] The DD lamp lights up.


So, my question is why does 861 change to [PCM Movie2 96K] when I play Flac, 48 kHz, 24 bit, MQA, 48 kHz, when i play from Tidal in Roon app?

It is quite annoying to listen when it changes format between the songs , there is a click (from relay in 861) and a low ticking sound in the speakers every time it changes.


861v4, HD621, 2xDSP5500 24/96, DSP5500HC 24/96 (smiley face), Side surround 2xDSP3100, Rear surround Analog out to Arcam Amp and Dynaudio speakers. Velodyne DD 10 Subwoofer
Roon NUC as endpoint, QNAP with Roon Server App. Chromecast Ultra, Apple TV, Cambridge Audio BD 752, Pro-ject Pre box S2 digital, Philips Pronto remotes. Supra LoRad Power
Edited by Gemeni; 2019-09-25 13:59.
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#288007 - 2019-09-25 10:36 Re: Streaming from Roon (Tidal) to 861 and format change? [Re: Gemeni]
Registered: 2002-08-28
Posts: 4,512
Mr Meridian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Mr Meridian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2002-08-28
Posts: 4,512
Loc: Perthshire, Scotland
Hi Gemeni

A few things to consider here.

Would you consider adding an ID40 card to your 861v4? It would give you an immediate sound quality upgrade and simplify everything, removing most of these issues at a stroke.

You mentioned that the HD621 is connected to the 861v4 by the multi channel input MD1 (3xSPDIF). If so, then the presets you are seeing sound correct for a normal movie set up. I suspect the HD621 will flag 44k content as music and 48k content as movies, as historically that would have been the case for most content, so the presets shown on the 861 make sense.

The HD621 was designed to extract audio from video sources, and wasn't recommended as an optimal way to play back music (due to the involvement of HDMI). The newest firmware for the 861v4 added apodising, so even if you were using the HD621 for that feature, there's no need.

Regarding the relays clicking in the 861, my unit also does this when switching from standard to high res content, and that is from Tidal/Roon via the network to the ID40 card. It hasn't bothered me as I tend to listen to an album at a time, so it's only going to click at most once every 40 minutes or so.

Hope that's a help.

Cheers

George

PS it sounds as though your chromecast may be sending all content as 48k, hence the preset chosen. That wouldn't be great for sound quality on 44k content.

Edited by Mr Meridian; 2019-09-25 10:38. Edit Reason: PS added
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#288013 - 2019-09-25 13:56 Re: Streaming from Roon (Tidal) to 861 and format change? [Re: Mr Meridian]
Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 13
Gemeni Offline
Harmless
Gemeni Offline
Harmless

Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 13
Loc: Denmark
Hi George, thanks for your input. I also considered an ID40 card. The reason I chose a ROCK NUC is because then I have the option of multi-channel music over HDMI.

I first used Chromecast as Roon endpoint, but as you write it converts all high resolution Music to 48k. And I feel that the sound quality is better now, when I use Roon NUC, compared to Chromecast.

Do you think sound quality will improve with the ID40 card compared to Roon NUC with HDMI to HD621?

I have also thought of a Meridian 210 streamer, but then I'm still limited to 2 channel.
I can also use Roon NUC with a USB DAC (2 channel), with SPDIF in to 861 as an alternative.

As a HiFi enthusiast, you will always search for the best possible audio reproduction.


861v4, HD621, 2xDSP5500 24/96, DSP5500HC 24/96 (smiley face), Side surround 2xDSP3100, Rear surround Analog out to Arcam Amp and Dynaudio speakers. Velodyne DD 10 Subwoofer
Roon NUC as endpoint, QNAP with Roon Server App. Chromecast Ultra, Apple TV, Cambridge Audio BD 752, Pro-ject Pre box S2 digital, Philips Pronto remotes. Supra LoRad Power
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#288048 - 2019-09-26 17:56 Re: Streaming from Roon (Tidal) to 861 and format change? [Re: Gemeni]
Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,378
Crion Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
Crion Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,378
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Get a 210, it's the best most integrated Roon piece to your 861 now.

It will be a step up in SQ as well. Multichannel, yes you can use your NUC then but for everything else, use 210.


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with Infuse 6, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#288090 - 2019-09-28 11:10 Re: Streaming from Roon (Tidal) to 861 and format change? [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 13
Gemeni Offline
Harmless
Gemeni Offline
Harmless

Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 13
Loc: Denmark
Thanks for the advice, I think I'm ordering a Meridian 210.
But I'm still a little confused what format I get into 861 from HD621. When I now play from the Chromecast (setup with IE: MD1) the display shows [MHR Movie2 96K] but from ROCK (setup with IE: D1) the display shows [PCM 2-Ch 88K] or [PCM 2-Ch 96K].
So why can't I get MHR from ROCK. The Properties for HD621 is ticket in the MHR box,


861v4, HD621, 2xDSP5500 24/96, DSP5500HC 24/96 (smiley face), Side surround 2xDSP3100, Rear surround Analog out to Arcam Amp and Dynaudio speakers. Velodyne DD 10 Subwoofer
Roon NUC as endpoint, QNAP with Roon Server App. Chromecast Ultra, Apple TV, Cambridge Audio BD 752, Pro-ject Pre box S2 digital, Philips Pronto remotes. Supra LoRad Power
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#288092 - 2019-09-28 12:39 Re: Streaming from Roon (Tidal) to 861 and format change? [Re: Gemeni]
Registered: 2002-08-28
Posts: 4,512
Mr Meridian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Mr Meridian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2002-08-28
Posts: 4,512
Loc: Perthshire, Scotland
Originally Posted By Gemeni
Do you think sound quality will improve with the ID40 card compared to Roon NUC with HDMI to HD621?
Yes, without a doubt.

Originally Posted By Gemeni
I can also use Roon NUC with a USB DAC (2 channel), with SPDIF in to 861 as an alternative.
Why would you want to convert the Roon signal to analogue in a DAC, and then back to digital in the 861? That will degrade sound quality.

You can keep an HDMI connection from the ROCK to the HD621 for when you play multi channel recordings, but for two channel, avoid the HD621.

Only Meridian equipment transmits signals using MHR (Meridian High Resolution), which is why you see it from the HD621 but not from the ROCK.

I can't comment about the sound quality of the 210, but I did have a 218 on loan from a dealer, and it wasn't as good as the ID40 card. That was evaluating 44k material and MQA (Roon first unfold of MQA vs 218 first unfold of MQA)

Hope that's a help.

Cheers
George

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#288094 - 2019-09-28 17:13 Re: Streaming from Roon (Tidal) to 861 and format change? [Re: Mr Meridian]
Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 13
Gemeni Offline
Harmless
Gemeni Offline
Harmless

Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 13
Loc: Denmark
OK, then I have two options, ID40 card or 210.

- ID40: only for Roon (or Sooloos, which I don't use).

- 210: Roon, Spotify, Bluetooth, UPnP. This is a more flexible solution, but if the sound is not as good as ID 40, then maybe ID 40 is the winner.

I have to see if I can borrow a 210 from a dealer. ID40 cards I can borrow from a friend. Will be back with result from the listening test when I have finished it.

I maybe was a little unclear, but what I meant by Roon NUC and DAC was this:
Roon NUC (USB out) -> Bel Canto USB to SPDIF converter -> 861 (Digital in). Not the best alternative, but still an option.

And what I meant by MHR:

Chromecast -> HD621-> 861 (IE:MD1 input) shows [MHR Movie2 96K]
Roon NUC -> HD621 -> 861 (IE: D1 input) shows [PCM 2-Ch 96K or 88K]

I thought if I had clicked in the MHR seting in the HD621 setup then the HD621 would always deliver MHR between HD621 and 861.


861v4, HD621, 2xDSP5500 24/96, DSP5500HC 24/96 (smiley face), Side surround 2xDSP3100, Rear surround Analog out to Arcam Amp and Dynaudio speakers. Velodyne DD 10 Subwoofer
Roon NUC as endpoint, QNAP with Roon Server App. Chromecast Ultra, Apple TV, Cambridge Audio BD 752, Pro-ject Pre box S2 digital, Philips Pronto remotes. Supra LoRad Power
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#288098 - 2019-09-29 04:55 Re: Streaming from Roon (Tidal) to 861 and format change? [Re: Gemeni]
Registered: 2018-11-06
Posts: 165
JamieB Offline
Hitchhiker
JamieB Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2018-11-06
Posts: 165
Loc: Seattle, USA
Originally Posted By Gemeni
I can also use Roon NUC with a USB DAC (2 channel), with SPDIF in to 861 as an alternative.
Since you're using SPDIF in, I assume your USB DAC is one with a SPDIF output, in which case it should sound just as good as the ID40. Both are limited to 24/96k.


Cave: 861v8; HD621; Oppo 203 Vanity HD; 4xDSP5ks, DSP5kC; Sony Z9D, PS4 Pro; Roku Ultra 2017;
Living: HiFiBerry Roon; 2xDSP5ks
Nest: Bluesound Power NODE; 2x Mission 700s
Kitchen: Bluesound Flex stereo pair
Roon overkill AMD 3400G; 32GB Ram; 960 Evos
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#288149 - 2019-10-02 16:15 Re: Streaming from Roon (Tidal) to 861 and format change? [Re: JamieB]
Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 13
Gemeni Offline
Harmless
Gemeni Offline
Harmless

Registered: 2004-03-25
Posts: 13
Loc: Denmark
While waiting for the Meridian 210, I tested the difference between ROCK’s HDMI output and USB out to USB-SPDIF converter. And Chromecast. HDMI output wins over the USB-SPDIF converter for better resolution and slightly better bass control.

Setup USB- SPDIF: NUC Roon ROCK (only endpoint) (USB out) -> Bel Canto USB to SPDIF converter -> 861 (Digital in, D5).

Setup HDMI: NUC Roon ROCK (only endpoint) HDMI output -> HD HD621-> 861 MHR input (MD1).

Compared to Chromecast there is a big difference, via Chromecast you lose both bass control and crispness in treble and midrange. The feeling of space is also getting smaller.

Setup: Cromcast-> HD HD621 -> 861 MHR input (MD1).

I've used these songs for testing:
- All Your Love (Turned to Passion), Sara K.
- Keith Don’t go, Nils Löfgren
- Requelem for a tower, London Music Works / Clint Mansel
- Hyperbollcsyllablecsesquedalymistic, Isaac Heys


861v4, HD621, 2xDSP5500 24/96, DSP5500HC 24/96 (smiley face), Side surround 2xDSP3100, Rear surround Analog out to Arcam Amp and Dynaudio speakers. Velodyne DD 10 Subwoofer
Roon NUC as endpoint, QNAP with Roon Server App. Chromecast Ultra, Apple TV, Cambridge Audio BD 752, Pro-ject Pre box S2 digital, Philips Pronto remotes. Supra LoRad Power
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