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#283723 - 2019-03-16 00:08 Not so sure about Trifield and DSW setup variations
Registered: 2016-06-05
Posts: 156
Koputai Offline
Hitchhiker
Koputai Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2016-06-05
Posts: 156
Loc: Collaroy Plateau, NSW, Austral...
I've been using Trifield for a number of years now, and have loved it.

Today I played a few tracks that I haven't listened to since going Trifield, and I wondered what
the hell was going on. There was almost no vocals!

Switching to 'Stereo' or 'Direct' DSP modes caused the vocals to come back, so it must be something
in the Trifield processing that is cancelling out or somehow otherwise cutting back the intensity of
the vocals.

My setup is Sooloos into G68D, to AC11, to DSP5200 (SL) mains, DSP5200HC (SL) centre, and DSW sub,
all running off their own individual channels.

I quite like the sound of 'Direct' except for the lack of bass, as the DSW receives no signal in this
mode. I tried feeding the DSW from the SpeakerLink output of one of the mains, but there was WAAY too
much bass, and the DSW seemed to be playing all frequencies as well.

Does anyone have a suggestion of how to set up a DSW when daisy chained off a main left or right? There seems to be no literature on how to actually use a DSW.

Cheers,
Jason.


Lounge: Control:10, MS200, G68D, AC11, DSP5200SL (L-HC-R), DSW, HD621, QNAP, Michell Tecnodec.

Storage: DSP5000HC, DSP3100HC x2, DSP3300, G98, G56, G68ADV, 504, 562v1, 562v2, 568, 598, AC11, and enough spare parts to sink a battleship.
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#283727 - 2019-03-16 06:07 Re: Not so sure about Trifield and DSW setup variations [Re: Koputai]
Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,704
Ian Online content
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Ian Online content
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,704
Loc: Surrey, England, UK
Stereo is direct with sub.



Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, roon (ROCK 8Gi5 Nuc), Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
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#283729 - 2019-03-16 07:15 Re: Not so sure about Trifield and DSW setup variations [Re: Koputai]
Registered: 2012-02-07
Posts: 522
Neil H Offline
Paranoid android
Neil H Offline
Paranoid android

Registered: 2012-02-07
Posts: 522
Loc: Spain
Trifield going sick was the first sign of my G61 power supply failing.

Eventually it led to its complete demise.

Neil


MC200, MS200, Oppo 93VL, G61RSL, Revivers, DSP5000.2, DSP5000C.2, SME10/IV.
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#283730 - 2019-03-16 07:51 Re: Not so sure about Trifield and DSW setup variations [Re: Koputai]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,663
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,663
Loc: Austria, Europe
Jason,

As Ian said. Stereo is L/R AND sub, Direct is L/R without sub.

As you have a surround controller, you should connect the sub to the center/sub RCA output, this waay the G68 handles the bass management.
When you have setup the whole system with MConfig means (more under bass management), then you lower frequencies in music get off from the mains and directed to the sub.
The logic is here to help small speakers.

xxxxxxx
Cinema is a different task as the sub is here not existent - the lower frequencies have a separate track/channel - it's called LFE (Low Frequencies Effects).
xxxxxxx

So coming back to music and a correct setup in Mconfig, when you disconnect the sub from C/S -either physically or via the DSP preset called "direct" you get less bass.
Choose the DSP preset "Stereo" bring you back the bass to the C/S connection.

When the sub is now connected to the main (how looks your wiring and how is your setup for the sub?), then the sub gets the frequency spectrum from the mains and depending how you setup your sub it receives either the L or R channel (the digital outputs always carry two channels in M-systems) or the setup can be set to a mono sub.
Then you get the infos from L and R, but the frequency spectrum of the mains.

Another thing to check that the voices disappear is the phase of the front speakers.
First disconnect the audio input cable at the center speaker.
Play a test track with a "phase test signal" and let that track running all the time in a loop as you need it for several tests.
Listen to that track in "direct" and check if the L and R are correct, if not correct it.

Disconnect the audio input of the left main speaker and connect that cable now to the center speaker.
So you find out if the center is playing the L or R channel.

When (for example) the center is playing now the L channel, then stay with that connection.
So your center is now the left speaker and the right speaker is the right speaker.
Listen still to the "phase track signal" and check if the phase of the center is correct, if not correct the phase of the center.
Now all three channels have the correct phase.

Reconnect all cables to you the original wiring.
Check if there is a change now with the voices.
Let us know what you find out.

Good luck robert


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
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#283782 - 2019-03-18 07:12 Re: Not so sure about Trifield and DSW setup variations [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2016-06-05
Posts: 156
Koputai Offline
Hitchhiker
Koputai Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2016-06-05
Posts: 156
Loc: Collaroy Plateau, NSW, Austral...
Thanks guys.
Originally Posted By RobertW
As you have a surround controller, you should connect the sub to the center/sub RCA output, this waay the G68 handles the bass management.
Yes, that's the way it has always been configured.

Originally Posted By RobertW
When the sub is now connected to the main, then the sub gets the frequency spectrum from the mains
Yes, but it shouldn't play (output) all frequencies. It's a DSP speaker, it should only play whichever bass frequencies it is told to, what I can't work out is how to tell it what bandwidth to output. A number of people use the DSW piggybacked from their DSP5200 or DSP8000 mains, with no processor
(eg no G68), and surely they don't have the DSW outputting up to 20kHz. If they do, they are fooling themselves that they have a top end system!

Originally Posted By RobertW
Another thing to check that the voices disappear is the phase of the front speakers.
My phasing is all good.

My only problem is that the vocals almost dissapear on some albums when using Trifield. Without knowing what the Trifield algorithm is doing, it's a hard problem to fix.

Cheers,
Jason



Lounge: Control:10, MS200, G68D, AC11, DSP5200SL (L-HC-R), DSW, HD621, QNAP, Michell Tecnodec.

Storage: DSP5000HC, DSP3100HC x2, DSP3300, G98, G56, G68ADV, 504, 562v1, 562v2, 568, 598, AC11, and enough spare parts to sink a battleship.
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#283806 - 2019-03-18 19:50 Re: Not so sure about Trifield and DSW setup variations [Re: Koputai]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,663
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,663
Loc: Austria, Europe
Originally Posted By Koputai
Thanks guys.
Originally Posted By RobertW
As you have a surround controller, you should connect the sub to the center/sub RCA output, this way the G68 handles the bass management.
Yes, that's the way it has always been configured.

Yes, configured, but also wired ? As you say it different in your next answer/question ?

Originally Posted By RobertW
When the sub is now connected to the main, then the sub gets the frequency spectrum from the mains
Yes, but it shouldn't play (output) all frequencies.
First it GET all frequencies on his input as it get the INPUT of that "logical pair"(the mains e.g.. L/R). As the DSW can ? configured to receive either the L or R or better say channel1 or channel2 of that stream-or make the DSW intern a monomix? -- Basic say the DSW get that, what is available on that "logical pair" audio-input. The output is, what the DSW is internal programmed/specified for.

All that is just a conformation that we both have the same basic thoughts about it.



It's a DSP speaker, it should only play whichever bass frequencies its told to, what I can't work out is how to tell it what bandwidth to output.
Yes correct, that SHOULD be in the DSW internal-as its a specification of a sub.

A number of people use the DSW piggybacked from their DSP5200 or DSP8000 mains, with no processor
(eg no G68), and surely they don't have the DSW outputting up to 20kHz.
With no mid and no tweeter its hard to get it ;-))

If they do, they are fooling themselves that they have a top end system!
Yes, BUT
what are the thoughts behind?
You are feeding the woofer with a full frequency spectrum,then you imagine/know the woofer do only the sub.
But what does it mean or do?
The main still deliver the full range include the low frequency, as nobody have told the(except you made a correct config file), that they don't have to deliver(or get from the processor) a bandwidth the DONT include the lower frequency.
So what the conclusion or result ?
Both, the mains AND the DSW are playing the low frequency with control of the controller, so it should come out to much bass.
If you like it, why not, its free that evrybody have his own "personal taste".
But its not what it should be, its a "customer setup".
So yes everybody can do it, but its not what the whole replay chain is designed for, so its a personal choice/modification.


Originally Posted By RobertW
Another thing to check that the voices disappear is the phase of the front speakers.
My phasing is all good.

My only problem is that the vocals almost dissapear on some albums when using Trifield. Without knowing what the Trifield algorithm is doing, it's a hard problem to fix.
Yes, the "only problem" is to catch the reason for that.
One reason could be phase of all three fronts, that the motivation to help you with my last post.
Another reason could be(maybe) some musical sources(record technics/faults from the manufacturing/sound engineer).
Maybe a good try is to public here your music where that issue is easy to find, so the community can try it.
So we can find out, its a generic failure with that source or a failure in the home setup.
You can search in the "white paper" for the patent numbers or a description, and on the patent itself to find out what "trifled" do.Also on the first 565 manuals you get some information what the "trifled" do.
Jason, maybe that sound to pedantic or "whatever", my problem is that jam not native english, so please be patient, i only want to help here,
not to "show" or "present" myself.



Cheers,
Jason



861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
Reviver
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#283807 - 2019-03-18 22:04 Re: Not so sure about Trifield and DSW setup variations [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2007-10-24
Posts: 228
Wayne Offline
Hitchhiker
Wayne Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2007-10-24
Posts: 228
Loc: AB, Canada
This may be a silly question, but is there any chance the centre channel and sub are mis-wired (ie sub connected to centre on G68, centre connected to sub)? I had once done this with an older G68n based system and it did fool me for a while. It could explain at least some of your symptoms.

Wayne


System 1: 861v6+ID40, UHD722, DSP640x2, DSP520C, DSP320x2, DSWx2, Sony XBR-100Z9D, Oppo UDP-203, Kaleidescape, AppleTV 4K
System 2: 808.3 upgraded to 808v6, MC200, HD621, DSP8000.2 with SE Upgrade
System 3: F80
Currently unused: DSP3200x4, DSP33x2, DSP33C, D1500, DSP420x2, G68ADV, G98DH, HD421
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#283808 - 2019-03-18 22:28 Re: Not so sure about Trifield and DSW setup variations [Re: Wayne]
Registered: 2009-11-10
Posts: 1,687
CMB Integrations - Bruce Offline
Meridian Partner Knows where his towel is
CMB Integrations - Bruce Offline
Meridian Partner
Knows where his towel is

Registered: 2009-11-10
Posts: 1,687
Loc: Lexington, South Carolina, USA
No, center and sub are on the same RCA connector when using DSP speakers.is it only Trifield that the volcals go away?. Have you tried retyping the SSP and center?


www.cmbintegrations.com

Personal System #1 Trinnov Altitude 32-8-16, 818v3, DSP8000.2SE, DSP7200SEHC, Revel F228be, Revel B112, Monitor Audio Silver 10, ATI 200WX5 Amp, JVC RS15, Shunyata Denali 6000S, Alpha power cables, Black Diamond Zero Edge screen. QNAP TS-251 3TB
Mark Levinson No515 Turntable

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#283813 - 2019-03-19 10:38 Re: Not so sure about Trifield and DSW setup variations [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
Registered: 2016-06-05
Posts: 156
Koputai Offline
Hitchhiker
Koputai Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2016-06-05
Posts: 156
Loc: Collaroy Plateau, NSW, Austral...
Thanks all, and thanks Robert for more comment. I think we are not quite in sync, so I shall describe.

My regular, long term set up is:

COMMS
G68 Meridian Comms - (Comms cable) - AC11 Comms

INPUT
MS200 - (optical cable) - G68 optical input

CENTRE/SUB OUTPUT
G68 Centre/Sub digital output - (SPDI/F RCA cable) - AC11 A input - AC11 A Master output - (Speakerlink cable) - DSP5200HC Speakerlink input
and - AC11 A Slave output - (Speakerlink cable) - DSW Speakerlink input

MAIN LEFT AND RIGHT
G68 Main L/R digital output - (SPDI/F RCA cable) - AC11 B input - AC11 B Master output - (Speakerlink cable) - Left DSP5200 Speakerlink input
and - AC11 B Slave output - (Speakerlink cable) - Right DSP5200 Speakerlink input

As far as I'm concerned, this is the correct way to connect up this equipment, please tell me if you think otherwise. All items have been config'd,
including speaker distances. The AC11, which you may not be familiar with, can not be included in the config, but there is no need for it to be.

When I play music through this system, as I have done for a number of years, everything sounds correct when using Trifield, Stereo, Direct. (I don't use any of the others)

When I play certain albums in Trifield, the vocals disappear into the background, and are almost lost. If I switch to Stereo or Direct, they come back. Note this is not all albums, only a few have this problem.

I am certain this issue is not in my set up or operation of the system.

One album that is affected markedly is: Coroner - Punishment For Decadence

If you'd like to take a listen to that album in Trifield vs Stereo vs Direct, I would be interested to hear your findings.

I will start a new thread at some stage in relation to the operation of the DSW.

Regards,
Jason.



Lounge: Control:10, MS200, G68D, AC11, DSP5200SL (L-HC-R), DSW, HD621, QNAP, Michell Tecnodec.

Storage: DSP5000HC, DSP3100HC x2, DSP3300, G98, G56, G68ADV, 504, 562v1, 562v2, 568, 598, AC11, and enough spare parts to sink a battleship.
Edited by Koputai; 2019-03-19 10:47.
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#283816 - 2019-03-19 12:00 Re: Not so sure about Trifield and DSW setup variations [Re: Koputai]
Registered: 2003-10-04
Posts: 2,256
spinaltap Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
spinaltap Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2003-10-04
Posts: 2,256
Loc: Bournville, UK
Originally Posted By Koputai
When I play certain albums in Trifield, the vocals disappear into the background, and are almost lost. If I switch to Stereo or Direct, they come back. Note this is not all albums, only a few have this problem.
When I owned a Meridian G95 I experienced this issue too: thus it would appear to be an inherent 'characteristic' of Trifield.


My Mac can go all the way to XI - Mac user since 1988 - Meridian owner since 1993.
Music: M6, 218, 504, 506.2, AC12, SBT, LMS
Movies: Loewe Bild7.55, ATV4K.
Stored: Meridian 551/555/A500/Director. 2x5m VDH Teatrack, Mission Elegante e82/e81/e8c, B&W PV-1, Yamaha 5.1 Receiver & DVD Player.
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#283817 - 2019-03-19 12:12 Re: Not so sure about Trifield and DSW setup variations [Re: spinaltap]
Registered: 2001-05-23
Posts: 2,819
Gianni Offline
Great Green Arkleseizure
Gianni Offline
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2001-05-23
Posts: 2,819
Loc: North London, United Kingdom
Could this be a result of the vocals being out of phase between the original stereo left and right channels of the recording?

If the Trifield algorithm attempts to combine those signals to derive the centre it would result in diminished volume.

What happens if you run Trifield with no centre?


"Wonderful perfect quadraphonic sound with distortion levels so low as to make a brave man weep" - Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz of the Galactic Hyperspace Planning Council
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#283855 - 2019-03-20 10:30 Re: Not so sure about Trifield and DSW setup variations [Re: Gianni]
Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 2,121
3dit0r Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
3dit0r Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 2,121
Loc: South UK
What happens if you switch to the Music DSP?

Any effect if you play with the Depth setting?

[edit: does Trifield still have a Depth setting? Looking in the user manual now, I can only see Width...?]

[further edit: sorry, it's there in the Standard Parameters section of the manual, not in the specific preset parameters. D'oh!]


818v3, DSP7200.2, Oppo BDP-105, Sony VPL-HW55ES projector, Kimber Mains Cables, Russ Andrews Torlyte Equipment Rack and Mains Filtration, GIK Acoustics Room Treatments
Edited by 3dit0r; 2019-03-20 10:44.
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