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#277503 - 2018-06-25 14:56 Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch)
Registered: 2009-08-29
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Jeremy A-H Offline
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I was wondering if anyone had tried using a direct ethernet connection from Roon to a Meridian ID41 card (using a second ethernet connection from Roon to connect to the main network)?

While this improves the system's imaging, I've been having issues making this work consistently where Roon can't always find the ID41 (despite the lights flashing merrily away to indicate the ethernet system is working).

At first I assumed this was a Roon issue, but given the problems some people have found with making the ID41 work with certain ethernet switches, I'm now wondering if this is likely to be a Meridian issue, and possibly not one that can be fixed.



Meridian 818v3, DSP7200SE's, Triton v3, Roon
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#277506 - 2018-06-25 17:41 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
Registered: 2004-08-07
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Ian Offline
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What you are attempting is far from plug and play. For instance, what are you running/configured on Roon box to ensure that network packets go to the correct NIC depending on its intended route/destination and are not lost?

I suspect it’s neither a Roon nor Meridian issue, but a quite advanced network issue.


Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
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#277507 - 2018-06-25 18:13 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ian]
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It's pretty straightforward, assuming some knowledge of network addressing.

The home office network (which Roon sits on for control) is configured to use the network 10.0.0.0/21, and the ID41 and secondary ethernet port on Roon uses a different subnet 10.0.8.0/21.

The only traffic the ID41 should see is the music data coming from Roon.


Meridian 818v3, DSP7200SE's, Triton v3, Roon
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#277508 - 2018-06-25 18:22 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
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Ian Offline
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I don't know much about Roon networking, but what NIC(s) is it bound to? If its not bound to both, and no routing is going on, then it’s only going to see home network, or ID4x. It’s possibly similar to what happens with QNAP devices where Sooloos must be physically connected to the correct eth port. Unless you are routing with the Roon box, just because you put a packet out to home network doesn't mean that it will get there if you are only bound to other NIC - unless you are routing somewhere (internally?) or Roon is bound to both ports.


Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
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#277509 - 2018-06-25 19:11 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ian]
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Ratbert Offline
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Hi Ian

Maybe this Roon post will help explain a little more.

Russ


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#277510 - 2018-06-25 19:20 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ian]
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ncpl Offline
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Search the Roon forum. I am pretty sure someone has it working there.

Ah...Ratbert beat me to it....


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
Edited by ncpl; 2018-06-25 19:20.
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#277511 - 2018-06-25 19:27 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: ncpl]
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Ratbert Offline
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Bored by Portugal v Iran even though it is in UHD cool so looked it up.


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#277514 - 2018-06-25 21:24 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ratbert]
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Jeremy A-H Offline
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Thanks for the link.

The setup described by Danny is the one I have been using (with the exception that he has discovered that the IP range 5.1.x.x is now in use and he no longer recommends this range).

Jeremy


Meridian 818v3, DSP7200SE's, Triton v3, Roon
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#277516 - 2018-06-25 21:28 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ratbert]
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Ian Offline
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OK, I scanned through that and it does not give all the answers as the device in question uses a different protocol than Sooloos/ID4x uses.

Knowing how Sooloos works, unless someone can confirm that Roon binds on all network cards, or, it is internally or externally routed or otherwise to ensure that traffic on one NIC can communicate with another (which probably defeats the point of separating network traffic), then I cannot see that you can guarantee that Roon will be listening to the multicast discovery beacons that the ID4x card will be transmitting and thus will not be reliably detecting that a Sooloos endpoint is present. This is different to the scenario to that posted in the link provided due to the protocols involved.


Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
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#277517 - 2018-06-25 21:40 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ian]
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Jeremy A-H Offline
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Originally Posted By Ian
I don't know much about Roon networking, but what NIC(s) is it bound to? If its not bound to both, and no routing is going on, then its only going to see home network, or ID4x.
One NIC in the Roon server is bound to the main network and the other NIC in the Roon server is bound to the ID41. I would imagine that Roon would scan both networks and find the ID41 on one of them. Linux should automatically route the ID41 music to that interface (based on its IP address), while still listening out for traffic on the other interface connected to the main network.

Originally Posted By Ian
Its possibly similar to what happens with QNAP devices where Sooloos must be physically connected to the correct eth port.
Agreed. While Roon is bound to both ports, it is entirely possible that Roon expects the ID41 to be on a specific NIC.


Meridian 818v3, DSP7200SE's, Triton v3, Roon
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#277518 - 2018-06-25 21:48 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ian]
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Jeremy A-H Offline
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Originally Posted By Ian
Knowing how Sooloos works, unless someone can confirm that Roon binds on all network cards, or, it is internally or externally routed
Our posts crossed and I think we are thinking along similar lines. Roon ROCK will bind to all configured network cards according to Danny (and confirmed by my own tests working intermittently). I think the routing of traffic should be internally routed to the correct NIC by the OS, but that doesn't mean Roon necessarily works this way.

The advantage of separating the network traffic to my mind is too fold:

a) There is less traffic for the server to respond to;
b) Perhaps more importantly, you could use a high quality LAN card which creates less EMI noise than a normal ethernet switch would


Meridian 818v3, DSP7200SE's, Triton v3, Roon
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#277519 - 2018-06-26 05:05 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
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Ian Offline
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Typically, multicast traffic will not be routed unless specifically enabled - it may not even be possible to route it with most routers, so it is likely that, at least by default, multicast discovery packets are unlikely to be routed internally by the OS. However, if ROCK is bridging the ports, then you should effectively get mirroring of the multicast packets.

But if the Roon software (not just the ROCK OS) does indeed bind to all NICs, then this should not be a problem - you can check with ROCK equivalent of netstat to see bound ports - multicast UDP protocol typically with IP address starting iirc 224. If you don't see these listed, then there is your problem - Roon software is not listening for the ID4x discovery beacons so it won't know that your endpoint is there. This is an application thing so is down to how it is coded in Roon - sometimes an application will bind specifically to a NIC or sometimes it will be pot luck what NIC it listens on as the OS will assign the NIC effectively at random - so you may well get intermittent behaviour.

If the Roon software does indeed bind to all configured NICs, this kind of defeats your (a) argument as Roon would be listening to similar amounts of traffic, just spread across multiple NICs. Whilst playing music, I doubt there is much other traffic on the Server NICs other than that needed for audio - unless of course that the Roon server is being used for other things.

As for (b), this is similar to what Meridian try with their ID4x card, which is 10Mbs only - most of the EMI would be from Gb speeds on the line. This works as a switch would keep the ID4x link at 10Mbs, keeping Gb speed traffic out of the ID4x card and reducing EMI. Of course, the same switch would also keep unnecessary traffic out of the ID4x. I get the bit about choice of NIC/LAN card as EMI is dark magic, but wouldn't a far simpler solution be a network isolator such as GISO (?) that was discussed on here several years back. That way, you would keep the network standard.



Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
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#277552 - 2018-06-26 18:37 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ian]
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Jeremy A-H Offline
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Thanks for your continued advice, Ian (and sorry, to the mods for quoting so much, but I think my responses will be difficult to follow otherwise).

Originally Posted By Ian
Typically, multicast traffic will not be routed unless specifically enabled... however, if ROCK is bridging the ports, then you should effectively get mirroring of the multicast packets
This is correct, I'm not expecting (or wanting) multicast traffic to be routed. My understanding is that ROCK is neither bridging or routing across the two interfaces, simply treating them as two separate networks it is connected to.

Originally Posted By Ian
But if the Roon software (not just the ROCK OS) does indeed bind to all NICs, then this should not be a problem - you can check with ROCK equivalent of netstat to see bound ports - multicast UDP protocol typically with IP address starting iirc 224.
Great thinking, unfortunately ROCK doesn't give access to the command line, so I would need to capture the packets across the LAN, which I may end having to do

Originally Posted By Ian
This is an application thing so is down to how it is coded in Roon - sometimes an application will bind specifically to a NIC or sometimes it will be pot luck what NIC it listens on as the OS will assign the NIC effectively at random - so you may well get intermittent behaviour
Agreed, this may well be the source of the problem, although Roon (the company) believe that Roon (the software) will work configured this way. However, my testing last night seems to indicate that you are correct and this isn't working as expected.

Originally Posted By Ian
If the Roon software does indeed bind to all configured NICs, this kind of defeats your (a) argument as Roon would be listening to similar amounts of traffic, just spread across multiple NICs
Again, I agree. The purpose of this is to reduce the amount of traffic seen by the ID41 and ensure that the ID41 is talking to an 'audiophile' JCAT LAN card, rather than to a noisy ethernet switch

Originally Posted By Ian
I get the bit about choice of NIC/LAN card as EMI is dark magic, but wouldn't a far simpler solution be a network isolator such as GISO (?) that was discussed on here several years back. That way, you would keep the network standard
I had indeed been using the GISO and recently upgraded to the SoTM CAT7/dCBL CAT 6 combo on the input to the ID41, however I perceive another improvement in imaging when the ID41 is directly connected to Roon. Ultimately, however, I concede I may need to upgrade the switch, if the above doesn't work reliably.


Meridian 818v3, DSP7200SE's, Triton v3, Roon
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#277556 - 2018-06-26 20:17 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
Registered: 2008-05-23
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Carl Offline
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Originally Posted By Jeremy A-H
... (and sorry, to the mods for quoting so much, but I think my responses will be difficult to follow otherwise).
Hi Jeremy,

No problem at all, it’s a perfectly appropriate use of quotes.

Regards
Carl,


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
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#277563 - 2018-06-27 08:14 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
Registered: 2004-08-07
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Ian Offline
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Originally Posted By Jeremy A-H
Originally Posted By Ian
If the Roon software does indeed bind to all configured NICs, this kind of defeats your (a) argument as Roon would be listening to similar amounts of traffic, just spread across multiple NICs
Again, I agree. The purpose of this is to reduce the amount of traffic seen by the ID41 and ensure that the ID41 is talking to an 'audiophile' JCAT LAN card, rather than to a noisy ethernet switch
The switch will be preventing the ID41 from seeing traffic that is not destined for it. That's a fundamental difference between a hub and a switch, the ports on a hub will have all network traffic (so your reasoning would be sound), but the ports on a switch will only have traffic for that network segment depending on MAC hardware routing. In other words, the ID41 will only see Sooloos protocol traffic to/from Roon, and the odd bit of broadcast and depending on the switch, multicast traffic. No other network traffic will be seen by the ID41.

Personally, I think it’s best to keep things standard and simple - I suspect if Roon does not support this configuration, and you cannot internally route multicast packets from ID41 to the NIC that Roon is listening for them on, then its probably going to be easier to tackle EMI itself, which it sounds like you have already started on.

Putting a NIC inside a noisy PC may not be the way forward, maybe a USB NIC - a 1:1 connection to ID41 does not need much network capability. Plus fit for purpose cabling and possibly isolation and filtering such as provided by GISO and ID41 itself and, the option to try different switches and PSU's.


Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
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#277568 - 2018-06-27 10:45 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ian]
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Ian Offline
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Just a thought about switches and EMI.

Switches are normally built in modules of 4 sequential ports, which is why you typically see switches with 4, 8, 12, 16 etc ports.

I wondered if you ever tried isolating the ID41 segment to its own set of 4 ports. So for example, in an 8 port switch, the first 4 ports had regular network traffic, and the last four ports only had one connection, the ID41 segment? This may keep high speed network interference isolated to a single module, with the slow speed 100Mbs Sooloos segment, on its own module.


Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
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#277573 - 2018-06-27 12:14 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ian]
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Originally Posted By Ian
That's a fundamental difference between a hub and a switch
Can you still buy an ethernet hub nowadays? wink

Originally Posted By Ian
Personally, I think it’s best to keep things standard and simple - I suspect if Roon does not support this configuration...
It depends on whether it's a Roon or a ROCK issue. If it's ROCK, then I could try an alternative OS. If it's Roon, then I think I'm stuffed (at least until the issue is fixed). Ultimately, yes, a high end switch might be a better solution.

Originally Posted By Ian
Putting a NIC inside a noisy PC may not be the way forward, maybe a USB NIC
My thoughts exactly. The server uses an underclocked J3455 processor with a shielded JCAT ethernet card (the latter driven by an Ultracaps power supply). My hope is that this should beat a USB NIC driven by a noisy power rail. JCAT also offer a €5000 ethernet switch which they say will outperform their ethernet card, but that seems a tad expensive. I'm hoping an Antipodes will arrive shortly to handle the rendering, in which case the problem might go away.


Meridian 818v3, DSP7200SE's, Triton v3, Roon
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#277588 - 2018-06-27 17:04 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
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I am overload with that discussion, but this is my experience.

I add a functionally unnecessary switch between my Fritzbox router (only for the audio streaming) and that improve the sound.

The sound is more “relaxed”, but did not loose anything, its just a step to more truth.

It is not night and day, but you will recognize it, it’s minor, but it’s here.

Robert


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#277597 - 2018-06-27 21:06 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: RobertW]
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Agreed, one would imagine the difference should be small, but the more you can do to clean the EMI noise up, the greater the difference it seems to make.


Meridian 818v3, DSP7200SE's, Triton v3, Roon
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#277616 - 2018-06-28 08:57 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
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+1


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__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
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#277697 - 2018-07-01 15:40 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: RobertW]
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Jeremy A-H Offline
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Update: while the issue below might be part of the problem, it clearly isn’t the complete story, as a reboot stopped the system from working...



Well, I might just have been able to figure this out.

I setup Roon, configuring a single ethernet port and tested that worked. I then configured the second ethernet port and it stopped working. That is until I switched the ethernet cables over! Not sure what's going on here, but ROCK seems to have renumbered the ethernet ports at the same time I configured the second port.

I now recall I had a similar issue when I first set Roon up this way, except last time around I switched the ethernet configuration around through ROCK, leaving the cables as they were. Note that I didn't add an ethernet port, I simply didn't configure the second port.

At least on my system, the difference in SQ is pretty dramatic.


Meridian 818v3, DSP7200SE's, Triton v3, Roon
Edited by Jeremy A-H; 2018-07-01 17:57.
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#277907 - 2018-07-12 13:56 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
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Regarding 'audiophile grade' ethernet switches, you might try, e.g.:

AQVox Ethernet Switch

Also, rumours indicate two more might be on the way from well known manufacturers of such things:

Uptone Audio EtherREGEN rumour

SoTM sNH-10G announcement

Alternatively, you might try this kind of thing (although maybe use some decent low-noise PSUs for the converters):

Optic Fibre 'isolation'

I can't personally vouch for any of these, mine sounds good as-is. I thought ID41 had magnetic isolation to deal with exactly these kinds of issues?


818v3, DSP7200.2, Oppo BDP-105, Sony VPL-HW55ES projector, Kimber Mains Cables, Russ Andrews Torlyte Equipment Rack and Mains Filtration, GIK Acoustics Room Treatments
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#277948 - 2018-07-15 00:31 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: 3dit0r]
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Thanks, I’ve been waiting for news on the SotM and Uptone, but it looks like the latter, at least, is still a way off production. Thinking about the AQVox, but there’s also the Japanese unit JCAT resell (albeit at a high price).

I’m also going to compare the Antipodes EX (connected direct to the 818) against my own renderer running SnakeOil and using a JCAT Net card, but a couple of fechnical issues will delay the latter until Monday (and the Antipodes has yet to arrive in my eager hands).

The best of the two will stay put and the other will likely become the music server.


Meridian 818v3, DSP7200SE's, Triton v3, Roon
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