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#277552 - 2018-06-26 18:37 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ian]
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 215
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 215
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Thanks for your continued advice, Ian (and sorry, to the mods for quoting so much, but I think my responses will be difficult to follow otherwise).

Originally Posted By Ian
Typically, multicast traffic will not be routed unless specifically enabled... however, if ROCK is bridging the ports, then you should effectively get mirroring of the multicast packets
This is correct, I'm not expecting (or wanting) multicast traffic to be routed. My understanding is that ROCK is neither bridging or routing across the two interfaces, simply treating them as two separate networks it is connected to.

Originally Posted By Ian
But if the Roon software (not just the ROCK OS) does indeed bind to all NICs, then this should not be a problem - you can check with ROCK equivalent of netstat to see bound ports - multicast UDP protocol typically with IP address starting iirc 224.
Great thinking, unfortunately ROCK doesn't give access to the command line, so I would need to capture the packets across the LAN, which I may end having to do

Originally Posted By Ian
This is an application thing so is down to how it is coded in Roon - sometimes an application will bind specifically to a NIC or sometimes it will be pot luck what NIC it listens on as the OS will assign the NIC effectively at random - so you may well get intermittent behaviour
Agreed, this may well be the source of the problem, although Roon (the company) believe that Roon (the software) will work configured this way. However, my testing last night seems to indicate that you are correct and this isn't working as expected.

Originally Posted By Ian
If the Roon software does indeed bind to all configured NICs, this kind of defeats your (a) argument as Roon would be listening to similar amounts of traffic, just spread across multiple NICs
Again, I agree. The purpose of this is to reduce the amount of traffic seen by the ID41 and ensure that the ID41 is talking to an 'audiophile' JCAT LAN card, rather than to a noisy ethernet switch

Originally Posted By Ian
I get the bit about choice of NIC/LAN card as EMI is dark magic, but wouldn't a far simpler solution be a network isolator such as GISO (?) that was discussed on here several years back. That way, you would keep the network standard
I had indeed been using the GISO and recently upgraded to the SoTM CAT7/dCBL CAT 6 combo on the input to the ID41, however I perceive another improvement in imaging when the ID41 is directly connected to Roon. Ultimately, however, I concede I may need to upgrade the switch, if the above doesn't work reliably.


DSP7200SE's, 818v3, Antipodes CX, Shunyata Triton v3 & Typhon (original version)
[Using a mix of Alpha NR's, Delta NR's, SotM and AudioQuest Diamond cables]
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#277556 - 2018-06-26 20:17 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,790
Carl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Carl Offline


President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,790
Loc: Central England, UK
Originally Posted By Jeremy A-H
... (and sorry, to the mods for quoting so much, but I think my responses will be difficult to follow otherwise).
Hi Jeremy,

No problem at all, it’s a perfectly appropriate use of quotes.

Regards
Carl,


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200.2, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
[In Reserve] C15, MD600 (2*3TB), TwinStore RM (2*2TB)
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#277563 - 2018-06-27 08:14 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,568
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,568
Loc: Surrey, England, UK
Originally Posted By Jeremy A-H
Originally Posted By Ian
If the Roon software does indeed bind to all configured NICs, this kind of defeats your (a) argument as Roon would be listening to similar amounts of traffic, just spread across multiple NICs
Again, I agree. The purpose of this is to reduce the amount of traffic seen by the ID41 and ensure that the ID41 is talking to an 'audiophile' JCAT LAN card, rather than to a noisy ethernet switch
The switch will be preventing the ID41 from seeing traffic that is not destined for it. That's a fundamental difference between a hub and a switch, the ports on a hub will have all network traffic (so your reasoning would be sound), but the ports on a switch will only have traffic for that network segment depending on MAC hardware routing. In other words, the ID41 will only see Sooloos protocol traffic to/from Roon, and the odd bit of broadcast and depending on the switch, multicast traffic. No other network traffic will be seen by the ID41.

Personally, I think it’s best to keep things standard and simple - I suspect if Roon does not support this configuration, and you cannot internally route multicast packets from ID41 to the NIC that Roon is listening for them on, then its probably going to be easier to tackle EMI itself, which it sounds like you have already started on.

Putting a NIC inside a noisy PC may not be the way forward, maybe a USB NIC - a 1:1 connection to ID41 does not need much network capability. Plus fit for purpose cabling and possibly isolation and filtering such as provided by GISO and ID41 itself and, the option to try different switches and PSU's.


Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
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#277568 - 2018-06-27 10:45 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ian]
Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,568
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,568
Loc: Surrey, England, UK
Just a thought about switches and EMI.

Switches are normally built in modules of 4 sequential ports, which is why you typically see switches with 4, 8, 12, 16 etc ports.

I wondered if you ever tried isolating the ID41 segment to its own set of 4 ports. So for example, in an 8 port switch, the first 4 ports had regular network traffic, and the last four ports only had one connection, the ID41 segment? This may keep high speed network interference isolated to a single module, with the slow speed 100Mbs Sooloos segment, on its own module.


Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
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#277573 - 2018-06-27 12:14 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ian]
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 215
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 215
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Originally Posted By Ian
That's a fundamental difference between a hub and a switch
Can you still buy an ethernet hub nowadays? wink

Originally Posted By Ian
Personally, I think it’s best to keep things standard and simple - I suspect if Roon does not support this configuration...
It depends on whether it's a Roon or a ROCK issue. If it's ROCK, then I could try an alternative OS. If it's Roon, then I think I'm stuffed (at least until the issue is fixed). Ultimately, yes, a high end switch might be a better solution.

Originally Posted By Ian
Putting a NIC inside a noisy PC may not be the way forward, maybe a USB NIC
My thoughts exactly. The server uses an underclocked J3455 processor with a shielded JCAT ethernet card (the latter driven by an Ultracaps power supply). My hope is that this should beat a USB NIC driven by a noisy power rail. JCAT also offer a €5000 ethernet switch which they say will outperform their ethernet card, but that seems a tad expensive. I'm hoping an Antipodes will arrive shortly to handle the rendering, in which case the problem might go away.


DSP7200SE's, 818v3, Antipodes CX, Shunyata Triton v3 & Typhon (original version)
[Using a mix of Alpha NR's, Delta NR's, SotM and AudioQuest Diamond cables]
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#277588 - 2018-06-27 17:04 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,621
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,621
Loc: Austria, Europe
I am overload with that discussion, but this is my experience.

I add a functionally unnecessary switch between my Fritzbox router (only for the audio streaming) and that improve the sound.

The sound is more “relaxed”, but did not loose anything, its just a step to more truth.

It is not night and day, but you will recognize it, it’s minor, but it’s here.

Robert


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
Reviver
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#277597 - 2018-06-27 21:06 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 215
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 215
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Agreed, one would imagine the difference should be small, but the more you can do to clean the EMI noise up, the greater the difference it seems to make.


DSP7200SE's, 818v3, Antipodes CX, Shunyata Triton v3 & Typhon (original version)
[Using a mix of Alpha NR's, Delta NR's, SotM and AudioQuest Diamond cables]
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#277616 - 2018-06-28 08:57 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,621
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,621
Loc: Austria, Europe
+1


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
Reviver
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#277697 - 2018-07-01 15:40 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 215
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 215
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Update: while the issue below might be part of the problem, it clearly isn’t the complete story, as a reboot stopped the system from working...



Well, I might just have been able to figure this out.

I setup Roon, configuring a single ethernet port and tested that worked. I then configured the second ethernet port and it stopped working. That is until I switched the ethernet cables over! Not sure what's going on here, but ROCK seems to have renumbered the ethernet ports at the same time I configured the second port.

I now recall I had a similar issue when I first set Roon up this way, except last time around I switched the ethernet configuration around through ROCK, leaving the cables as they were. Note that I didn't add an ethernet port, I simply didn't configure the second port.

At least on my system, the difference in SQ is pretty dramatic.


DSP7200SE's, 818v3, Antipodes CX, Shunyata Triton v3 & Typhon (original version)
[Using a mix of Alpha NR's, Delta NR's, SotM and AudioQuest Diamond cables]
Edited by Jeremy A-H; 2018-07-01 17:57.
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#277907 - 2018-07-12 13:56 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 1,942
3dit0r Offline
Knows where his towel is
3dit0r Offline
Knows where his towel is

Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 1,942
Loc: South UK
Regarding 'audiophile grade' ethernet switches, you might try, e.g.:

AQVox Ethernet Switch

Also, rumours indicate two more might be on the way from well known manufacturers of such things:

Uptone Audio EtherREGEN rumour

SoTM sNH-10G announcement

Alternatively, you might try this kind of thing (although maybe use some decent low-noise PSUs for the converters):

Optic Fibre 'isolation'

I can't personally vouch for any of these, mine sounds good as-is. I thought ID41 had magnetic isolation to deal with exactly these kinds of issues?


818v3, DSP7200.2, Oppo BDP-105, Sony VPL-HW55ES projector, Kimber Mains Cables, Russ Andrews Torlyte Equipment Rack and Mains Filtration, GIK Acoustics Room Treatments
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#277948 - 2018-07-15 00:31 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: 3dit0r]
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 215
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 215
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Thanks, I’ve been waiting for news on the SotM and Uptone, but it looks like the latter, at least, is still a way off production. Thinking about the AQVox, but there’s also the Japanese unit JCAT resell (albeit at a high price).

I’m also going to compare the Antipodes EX (connected direct to the 818) against my own renderer running SnakeOil and using a JCAT Net card, but a couple of fechnical issues will delay the latter until Monday (and the Antipodes has yet to arrive in my eager hands).

The best of the two will stay put and the other will likely become the music server.


DSP7200SE's, 818v3, Antipodes CX, Shunyata Triton v3 & Typhon (original version)
[Using a mix of Alpha NR's, Delta NR's, SotM and AudioQuest Diamond cables]
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#278768 - 2018-09-06 01:56 Re: Roon directly connected to ID41 (without a switch) [Re: Ian]
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 215
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 215
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Originally Posted By Ian
I wondered if you ever tried isolating the ID41 segment to its own set of 4 ports
Sorry, I don’t think I’d responded before now, but this is a very good point.

My AQVOX SE arrived today and this is something I plan to test just as soon as I get my Antipodes CX working (the first Antipodes CX failed to boot when it arrived and spent the last few weeks rehabilitating in NZ and the second seems to be a bit shy and won’t talk to my Meridian processor after going into suspend mode without uninstalling and reinstalling Roon first).


DSP7200SE's, 818v3, Antipodes CX, Shunyata Triton v3 & Typhon (original version)
[Using a mix of Alpha NR's, Delta NR's, SotM and AudioQuest Diamond cables]
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