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#276859 - 2018-06-08 19:50 MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,620
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,620
Loc: Austria, Europe
The idea is to stream with Roon MQA music and TIDAL makes the first MQA uinfold step in a non-Meridian processor. With the processor feeding digital the M-SE speaker.

The audio chain:

MQA source on TIDAL >>> Roon MQA decoding >>>> Non Meridian processor >>> SE speaker.

Will the SE’s make the final rendering to have a full quality MQA stream? If not ... why not?


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
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#276860 - 2018-06-08 20:06 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2002-08-28
Posts: 4,329
Mr Meridian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Mr Meridian Offline
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Registered: 2002-08-28
Posts: 4,329
Loc: Perthshire, Scotland
Hi Robert

I would have thought it unlikely to get the final SE render when driven by another processor, aren't the instructions to render sent over SpeakerLink?

Isn't there also the current issue of SE speakers not recognising legitimately unfolded MQA from Roon because the correct signalling that a 218 or 818 sends is missing?

I am well outside of my expertise area here, so prepared to be shot down!

Cheers
George

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#276861 - 2018-06-08 20:22 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: Mr Meridian]
Registered: 2010-12-09
Posts: 3,539
Ratbert Offline
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Posts: 3,539
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Hi George,

I think your understanding is basically correct.

Currently Meridian MQA devices have to decode the MQA stream and can not accept rendering information if decoded elsewhere eg by Roon

I believe this is being addressed in a yet to be announced firmware release (opportunity for Meridian to inform owners, no exact timescales are required).

Currently the Meridian processor and DSP speaker negotiate MQA capabilities via SpeakerLink so the processor gives the speaker only what it is capable of processing rather than the speaker trying to make the best of the ‘full MQA’ output, once the new firmware, to allow an externally decoded signal to be rendered is released, then in the case of Roon full MQA including rendering with DSP if required should be possible.

As for Tidal I thought they just did the first unfold and that was all if I am correct no rendering information will be there to retrieve.

I may be way off so my apologies for any errors.


Never pass up a good chance to shut up!
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#276862 - 2018-06-08 20:29 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: Mr Meridian]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,620
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
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Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,620
Loc: Austria, Europe
I thought is that the information about the content of MQA had to be in the music stream from a source.
Then a decoder gets the information to make the first unfold.

The second step could to be done then, the rendering.
The rendering device also have to know if the first unfold is done or not to make the rendering.

So the first unfold device has to add that info in the unfolded music stream.

And all that protocol should be a standard, that is imagination and hope and should be logical (for me).
But who knows??


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
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#276864 - 2018-06-08 20:53 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,395
VirusKiller Offline
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Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,395
Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
A fully functioning rendering device should have no problems recognizing an unfolded MQA stream with embedded rendering instructions (in Roon we call this "signaling information").

The problem with Meridian gear is two-fold:

1. The 818v3, 808v6, and 218 do not recognize this unfolded, but renderable, MQA stream.

2. SE loudspeakers need a Meridian MQA-aware controller to tell them to render.

I hope that these two limitations, which are both consequences of Meridian being the first to implement MQA when the "rules" were less mature and more strict, will be addressed via firmware updates.

Fixing (1) should happen, because it's basically an incomplete MQA implementation. Fixing (2), which is what you need, involves making SE loudspeakers fully independent of Meridian controllers. I don't think that Meridian is averse to this, but who knows when it will happen.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#276865 - 2018-06-08 20:59 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,772
Carl Offline
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Carl Offline


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Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,772
Loc: Central England, UK
Robert,

What you say is how it should work now... but Meridian being an early adopter implemented some handshaking using SpeakerLink.

I believe MQA then relaxed some of the implementation requirements ... and now Meridian are a little behind the curve... once the new firmware is released the SE speaker should be able to render any valid MQA renderable stream.

So Roon Decoding to SE speaker should work.

However, what happens when you put your Trinnov processor in the mix depends on the Trinnov not destroying the MQA stream. If it supports 2 channel bitperfect pass though it should work ... if not I think it’s fare to say it won’t.

That said it can be done, Roon can apply DSP and the restore the MQA Signaling... Trinnov would have to do same.

Regards,
Carl


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
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#276866 - 2018-06-08 21:01 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: Carl]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,395
VirusKiller Offline
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Registered: 2004-04-15
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Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
That's a good point. Would you want to forego Trinnov's excellent (by all accounts) room correction, which is obviously a major feature of the product?


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#276875 - 2018-06-09 06:56 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: Carl]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,620
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
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Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,620
Loc: Austria, Europe
Thanks Nick and Carl do point that very clearly, my respect to both of you.

As you know, I want to implement the Trinnov altitude 32 into my audio chain, for the 16 hardware modification is necessary (digital output)
Beside the investment in the T-A32 I see that: ***

Meridian 861
pro: can upmix (DSP presests)
pro: can MQA with restriction (in my case)
con: RC isn't good enough
con: Sound even with MC not so good as Trinnov with stereo (in my case)
con: Not up to date Roon so future is maybe critical like MChannelstreaming

Trinnov
pro: can perfect RC and equipment correction (special timing of speaker)
pro: can upmix from stereo sources (don't know how it sounds)
pro: uptodate Roon and Roon Mchannel support ***
cons: Effort necessary to communicate with M-DSP
cons: No MQA support at all and no roadmap ***

That is a big con to Trinnov as their streaming is better (for me) as the 861/ID40 or 218 streaming.
So I am right that TIDAL's Roon's #1 step-MQA unfold, disadvantage here is only one? manufacturer that deliver that (you know TIDAL future is not clear?


So I would like to have Roon #1-step unfolded streaming, then the Trinnov with correction and finally the rendering with DSP-SE.

1) For that, the Trinnov has to recognize and pass-through till his RC-processing the #1-step unfolded stream. That make current my T-Amethyst-so no problem here.
2) When the T have made the RC then Trinnov, the #1-step unfold information have to be still in the output stream.
3) M-DSP have to be able to read that and have to made the rendering.

A big discussion point is the RC in a MQA chain, the mainstream comment say the MQA stream have to be bitperfect and therefore no processing is allowed as it "destroy" the bitperfect chain.

My comment to that is YES from one point of that argument, then the stream is NOT the same !!
-- Cynically said, hopefully -- because otherwise no RC function ,) --
So let us look closer what happened with (near perfect only) RC placed in the chain.

a)
The source stream get the #1-step unfold for the goal to get a close as possible impressions from the recorded concert.
I say that, as the GOAL of MQA is to bring the musical event as close as possible to your home.

b)
The RC make a big improvement step in that chain, AS it minimize the failures what the room will add (and what false timing speakers also will add).
So that point (for me) it's overall that the MQA stream haven't to be touched !!

c)
The speakers then correct what their D/A converter failures with the help of rendering, that is mainly or all that info what the render process will do.
That is similar to the record studio where the A/D conversion failure get processed from the musical event recording.

d)
So in my thinking, WHEN the RC is the best possible, you have "destroyed" the bitperfect chain,
BUT the final result and the overall goal of MQA, to deliver the musical event as close as possible to your ears are much better delivered or reached.

Or just see that from that point, what helps a bit perfect stream, when that stream get destroyed mainly from the listening room?



Sorry about the long post, but all that points struggling through my head since months, I slowly get crazy...

***
See the answers from T-HQ in france to the questions: here.


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
Reviver
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#276886 - 2018-06-09 09:13 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,395
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic
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Don't Panic

Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,395
Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
Originally Posted By RobertW
So I would like to have Roon #1-step unfolded streaming, then the Trinnov with correction and finally the rendering with DSP-SE.
Impossible without in-depth Trinnov support for MQA. It would have to recognize the unfolded renderable signal, preserve the signalling information, apply its DSP, then add back the signalling information.

IMO if you want to go the Trinnov route, for the time being, kiss rendering goodbye.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#276890 - 2018-06-09 11:08 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2009-08-09
Posts: 53
Nav Garayal Offline
Mostly harmless
Nav Garayal Offline
Mostly harmless

Registered: 2009-08-09
Posts: 53
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi,

Just to be clear, will any MQA source (via Tidal / MQA downloads) into an 808v6/818v3 and played through SE DSPs provide all the necessary unfolding/rendering etc. to provide optimal MQA quality or not?

Thanks!


#1 808v6, DSP7200SE, MD600, Rega RP10/Aria/Apheta, Nordost QX4, QB8, Frey2 cables, Panasonic 65EZ1000 OLED, Oppo 203, Apple TV, Nakamichi Dragon cassette deck
#2 F80, MS200, Pioneer KRP500A plasma, Panasonic BDT330 blu ray
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#276896 - 2018-06-09 12:08 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: Nav Garayal]
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,772
Carl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Carl Offline


President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,772
Loc: Central England, UK
Hi Nav,

Provided the source of the undecoded MQA stream is bitperfect then the 808v6/818v3 will perform the MQA decoding, pass the result on to the SE DSPs which will then perform the MQA rendering.

The discussion is topic is about using Roon to perform the decoding rather than a Meridian device and that's why there are compromises right now.

Regards,
Carl


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
[In Reserve] C15, MD600 (2*3TB), TwinStore RM (2*2TB)
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#276910 - 2018-06-09 15:34 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: Carl]
Registered: 2009-08-09
Posts: 53
Nav Garayal Offline
Mostly harmless
Nav Garayal Offline
Mostly harmless

Registered: 2009-08-09
Posts: 53
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Many thanks for your reply Carl,

I appreciate the inital comments were Roon related but was somewhat concerned that perhaps Meridian were behind the curve in regard to the latest MQA related developments. Forgive my ignorance, but under what circumstances would the source material for the undecoded MQA stream not be bit perfect?

Regards
Nav


#1 808v6, DSP7200SE, MD600, Rega RP10/Aria/Apheta, Nordost QX4, QB8, Frey2 cables, Panasonic 65EZ1000 OLED, Oppo 203, Apple TV, Nakamichi Dragon cassette deck
#2 F80, MS200, Pioneer KRP500A plasma, Panasonic BDT330 blu ray
Kitchen:M80
Portable:Chord Hugo 2 DAC, Astell&Kern Ultima SP1000 player
Head/earphones:Audeze LCD-XC, Audeze LCDi4, Shure SE846
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#276913 - 2018-06-09 16:51 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: Carl]
Registered: 2016-06-24
Posts: 33
Springlike Offline
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Springlike Offline
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Registered: 2016-06-24
Posts: 33
Loc: Scottish Borders, UK
Dear Ratbert, VK and Carl,

if Meridian provide a firmware update for their SE loudspeakers so that they can fully render MQA without being "told" to by an upstream controller, would the following be possible in theory:

MQA source --> Roon (first MQA unfold) --> MS600 (direct passthrough) --> SE speaker (full rendering)

Thanks for helping to clarify this.
springlike

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#276916 - 2018-06-09 18:26 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: Springlike]
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,772
Carl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Carl Offline


President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,772
Loc: Central England, UK
Hi springlike,

Yep that audio chain should be fine ... (I have to say should as we are second guessing what Meridian will deliver).

Regards,
Carl


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
[In Reserve] C15, MD600 (2*3TB), TwinStore RM (2*2TB)
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#276917 - 2018-06-09 18:29 Re: MQA-Roon first unfold stream with non M-source into DSP-SE [Re: Nav Garayal]
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,772
Carl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Carl Offline


President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,772
Loc: Central England, UK
Originally Posted By Nav Garayal
Forgive my ignorance, but under what circumstances would the source material for the undecoded MQA stream not be bit perfect?
If say Room correction, or other DSP processing was applied.


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
[In Reserve] C15, MD600 (2*3TB), TwinStore RM (2*2TB)
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