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#270677 - 2017-12-13 07:55 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: Jeje]
Registered: 2011-01-25
Posts: 481
bxd Offline
Paranoid android
bxd Offline
Paranoid android

Registered: 2011-01-25
Posts: 481
Loc: Southampton, UK
Hi,

The current issue of Stereophile (and now no the website) has an article that might prove interesting for this discussion.

Brian


Main: G65, MD600, MS600, 218, HD621, DSP5200SE, DSP5200HCSE, M6 & D1500.
System 2: G91A, MS200, DSP5000 (96/24v1), DSP3300.
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#270678 - 2017-12-13 08:17 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: bxd]
Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,259
ChrisLayerUK Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ChrisLayerUK Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,259
Loc: Colchester, Essex, UK
Is the the link?

MQA tested part 1


No 18 in the Hall of fame smile I have simple tastes; I am content to settle for the best: GIK monster bass panels, rear wall.
MC200 500GB, QNAP TVS 471i3. Roon into 2 MS200's. Explorer 2. Bluesound Pulse 2 and Mini. 596 v1.89.2, 518, G61R, M60.2 Rosewood, M33C, M33 Rears, M1500 Sub, Foxsat HD, Sony Blu Ray, Pioneer 5090, 2 Chromecast's for LRB videos.
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#270680 - 2017-12-13 09:29 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: ChrisLayerUK]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,355
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic

Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,355
Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
From the horse's mouth: Question 7b and Bob's answer . A bit vague, but the question is still very valid. There *are* specific criteria for analogue kit being fed an authenticated MQA analogue output.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#270681 - 2017-12-13 10:26 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 2,476
Cliff. Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
Cliff. Offline
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Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 2,476
Loc: South Wiltshire, UK
It not obvious to me how a lack of linear response at stupidly high frequencies (>30kHz)could result in perceivable time domain artifacts. It that referenced article (in 7b) worth following up?

Edit: my amp appears good to 50kHz and my speakers are good but only measured to 36kHz. My ears are the problem.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
Edited by Cliff.; 2017-12-13 10:33.
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#270682 - 2017-12-13 12:07 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: Cliff.]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,355
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic

Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,355
Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
Originally Posted By Cliff.
It not obvious to me how a lack of linear response at stupidly high frequencies (>30kHz)could result in perceivable time domain artifacts.

If you are referring to a non-flat frequency response, you need to try and un-think what you have learned. It's the bandwidth that matters and, unless I've got it completely wrong, this applies equally to the bass sections (yes, 30kHz bandwidth important for reproducing 30Hz...).

Quote:
It that referenced article (in 7b) worth following up?

No, it's VERY statistical and a pig to read. The upshot is that it debunks the infamous Meyer and Moran (also AES) paper which "proved" that HiRes >RBCD was not audible (they completely failed to employ a test system with enough transparency).

Quote:
Edit: my amp appears good to 50kHz and my speakers are good but only measured to 36kHz.

As Bruce said above, the better the analogue gear, the better MQA will sound. My argument is that the science behind MQA hasn't – to date – been the driver behind the best analogue kit. I realize that this is a somewhat pedantic position to take, but I think that it's an important one: in the future much more kit will be designed with explicit time domain requirements. In any case, your amps and Giyas are fairly decent wink

Quote:
My ears are the problem.

Probably not. As Bob says, we may lose the top end of our hearing, but our audio acuity is an experience-based quantity.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#270683 - 2017-12-13 12:32 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,455
ncpl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ncpl Offline

President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,455
Loc: Surrey, UK
There are several papers that show that timing sensitivity is not degraded with age in the same way that frequency is. There is hope for all of us.


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#270684 - 2017-12-13 12:40 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 2,476
Cliff. Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
Cliff. Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 2,476
Loc: South Wiltshire, UK
Thanks for the reply.

Originally Posted By VirusKiller
It's the bandwidth that matters and, unless I've got it completely wrong, this applies equally to the bass sections (yes, 30kHz bandwidth important for reproducing 30Hz...).

That's the bit I'm struggling with. I would have thought that all that mattered were the positions of the low and high frequency corners in the bandwith plot and also that the amp responded to signal amplitude changes equally over the frequency range. Amp design would surely play a major role for the latter.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#270690 - 2017-12-13 15:39 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: ncpl]
Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,252
Hector Offline
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Hector Offline
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Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,252
Loc: Midlands, UK
Originally Posted By ncpl
There are several papers that show that timing sensitivity is not degraded with age in the same way that frequency is. There is hope for all of us.
Hate to disagree but in my case frequency increases with age, however timing is crucial for uninterrupted rest.

Seriously though can anyone provide detail on the bandwidth range of Prime Headphone Amp.
Could only find this response to previous question in post #227413 reference answer from Bob.

Quote:
A7 ii. "Many of us have headphones." The Prime Headphone Amplifier, which has a very wide bandwidth and compact impulse response, is getting MQA decoding by firmware update. How cool is that!

Hector


AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1LR, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD.
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HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys
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#272719 - 2018-02-06 08:08 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: Locus]
Registered: 2012-04-07
Posts: 17
Don Bingaman Offline
Harmless
Don Bingaman Offline
Harmless

Registered: 2012-04-07
Posts: 17
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Here are two criterion that I have applied to all my adventures in phase-coherent analog audio and if I understand it, should be fully applicable to MQA:

Amplification - flat bandwidth to 100 KHz with less than 30 degrees of phase shift across the entire bandwidth from end-to-end. Tube amps need not apply (output transformers have tons of phase shift and hysteresis above 20 KHz).

Loudspeakers - either phase coherent DSP-based crossovers in a matched amp/transducer set, like Meridian uses, OR no more than 3 or 4 wide range drivers fed by first order analog crossover network (I.e. 6 dB / octave) with frequency response to 40-50 KHz. Loudspeakers that do this include Vandersteen, Duntech, Thiele, Von Schweikert and a handful of others. I use a Vandersteen 5.1 set-up in conjunction with an Audiokinesis subwoofer array. I have found that both the frequency response AND time domain response is better that the Meridian loudspeakers I have heard, probably due to driver count and configuration in regard to driver-driver acoustic interactions and room boundary interactions. Vandersteen uses either three drivers above 100 hz that are co-located in a vertical line, less than 18" tall, OR two-way arrangements with a co-axial tweeter, like the KEF LS50. Speaker directivity vs. frequency is also tightly controlled.

My first serious loudspeaker set consisted of a pair of Quad 57 ESL's topped by a pair of Sequerra T-1 ribbon tweeters that were tweaked to measure flat from about 50 hz to 100 kHz. ( I built a pair of KEF B139 subwoofers with transmission line cabinets which extended the bottom ). Phase coherence below 100 hz is really unimportant. This system was blazing fast, but ELS panels "shimmer" as they get bigger. Vandersteen believes the only phase coherent ESL is the Quad 63, which would likely work better with a ribbon at its center. Think of it as a BIG co-axial speaker !

The loudspeakers are really the weak link. For most listeners, the only transducers capable of achieving MQA compatible time-domain performance are good headphones.


#1 G68XXD, UHD722, Oppo UHD-205 Player, BAT VK6200, Vandersteen Quatro Wood, VCC5, VSM1 speakers, Audiokinesis Swarm subwoofer system, Pass XP-25, VPI HW-19 Mk. 4 with FR64fx arm and Koetsu Urushi MC, SOTA Sapphire TT with MDC-800 arm and Miyajima Shilabe MC
#2 AC200, M6, Sonos
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