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#270720 - 2017-12-14 13:32 TIDAL financial health
Registered: 2001-05-23
Posts: 2,718
Gianni Offline
Great Green Arkleseizure
Gianni Offline
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Registered: 2001-05-23
Posts: 2,718
Loc: North London, United Kingdom
An article in Engadget, quoting an article in a Norwegian newspaper, is questioning the financial stability and future of TIDAL.

The various MQA naysayers on another forum are somehow linking the supposed demise of TIDAL to Roon, MQA and Meridian. I am not holding the sources up as reliable in any way, nor making those same connections.

Anyone here with knowledge of corporate financing and/or the ability to read Norwegian care to offer any insight?


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#270721 - 2017-12-14 14:40 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: Gianni]
Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 2,476
Cliff. Offline
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Cliff. Offline
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Posts: 2,476
Loc: South Wiltshire, UK
Looks like 'Tidal is doomed' articles pop up on a regular basis. I don't think you're going to get a true picture of the financials or potential rescue options. If it dies, it dies and I'll worry about it if it happens.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#270722 - 2017-12-14 14:56 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: Cliff.]
Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,259
ChrisLayerUK Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ChrisLayerUK Offline
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There is a tread on this on the Roon forum with interesting input from Danny.

Roon Forum link


No 18 in the Hall of fame smile I have simple tastes; I am content to settle for the best: GIK monster bass panels, rear wall.
MC200 500GB, QNAP TVS 471i3. Roon into 2 MS200's. Explorer 2. Bluesound Pulse 2 and Mini. 596 v1.89.2, 518, G61R, M60.2 Rosewood, M33C, M33 Rears, M1500 Sub, Foxsat HD, Sony Blu Ray, Pioneer 5090, 2 Chromecast's for LRB videos.
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#270730 - 2017-12-14 20:20 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: ChrisLayerUK]
Registered: 2004-01-04
Posts: 1,905
gIzzE Offline
Knows where his towel is
gIzzE Offline
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Posts: 1,905
Loc: Norwich, UK
The problem with Tidal for me is since the new owners got hold of it all the music suggestions are based on... them.

None of the suggested artists are based on the music I listen to on Tidal, it is all based on what the owners want to promote. All music I hate.

The price point is also too high for the masses, £14.99 would be far better.

The library is still missing loads of stuff that is on Qubuz.

It is for those reasons I think it will fail.

If it wasn't for Roon and MQA how many on here would be using it? You know, like the other 99.9% of people who use music streaming services.


No Darling, I've had it months!
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#270742 - 2017-12-15 06:19 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: gIzzE]
Registered: 2012-12-04
Posts: 476
JaapJan Offline
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JaapJan Offline
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Qubuz high res costs 349 euro/annum
Tidal did and does not charge anything for MQA

I dont hav another option but Sooloos and Tidal works perfect, so why would one choose for an inferior service like apple or Spotify or a stupid expensive Qubuz.

More important news is that US voted net neutrality out of the window, now that is news, bad news.


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Edited by JaapJan; 2017-12-15 06:59.
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#270745 - 2017-12-15 09:06 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: JaapJan]
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gIzzE Offline
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gIzzE Offline
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No, we wouldn't.

But you have to remember most people want the catalogue of music, and the $9.99 plan is enough.

Look at Alexa rankings, Spotify is at number 144, Tidal is at 10,899, I think that says a lot.

Any service than can't break 1% of market share has to offer something no one else does, and that is how Tidal is surviving, but it won't be long before it no longer offers that, as the others will too. Then what?




No Darling, I've had it months!
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#270747 - 2017-12-15 09:32 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: gIzzE]
Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,442
GMT Offline
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GMT Offline
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qobuz.com is 21,902 so how does that fit in with your predictions? To be fair a lot of businesses fail even well established ones. When do you think Tidal will fail by?

Cheers
Tom


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#270751 - 2017-12-15 11:34 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: GMT]
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gIzzE Offline
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gIzzE Offline
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My point about qobuz was that it has a much better library as far as many are concerned when you hear the discussions on qobuz vs Tidal.

The rankings was just to show that most consumers want the biggest most complete library, quality comes second.

You have to remember that many, even on the dedicated hifi forums still reckon you can't hear a difference between 320 MP3 vs FLAC, let alone Hi Res, and let's not even get into MQA.

That is what we are up against.

I hope it doesn't fail, but when Spotify adds lossless how many new customers do you think Tidal will attract?


No Darling, I've had it months!
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#270754 - 2017-12-15 13:05 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: gIzzE]
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GMT Offline
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I don't think that is what the rankings are suggesting. Tidal score higher in the rankings than Qubuz, has better SQ, yet has a worse library.
I think you are right about Spotify lossless though, Tidal will need to do something to make it unique and I don't think Roon is going to be the answer. Maybe more MQA devices and stream-able MQA content may help, but you have to say what is stopping others from doing the same?

Cheers
Tom


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#270755 - 2017-12-15 14:08 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: GMT]
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gIzzE Offline
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gIzzE Offline
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Registered: 2004-01-04
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I was comparing Tidal with Spotify when it came to Alexa searching.

The qobuz thing was with regard to discussions on the other HiFi forums, many see it as a better service 'proper' Hi-Res if you want it, and great catalogue.

MQA is not going to be a saviour, in fact many still see it as the anti christ.


No Darling, I've had it months!
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#270756 - 2017-12-15 15:17 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: gIzzE]
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Hector Offline
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Hector Offline
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Originally Posted By gIzzE
MQA is not going to be a saviour, in fact many still see it as the anti christ.
What do the nay sayers fear from the suggested anti christ?
This is beyond my comprehension.

Hector


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#270757 - 2017-12-15 15:43 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: Hector]
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gIzzE Offline
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gIzzE Offline
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Many see it as a lossy format that is simply there to line the pockets of many.

There is real hatred out there towards MQA.


No Darling, I've had it months!
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#270758 - 2017-12-15 16:41 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: gIzzE]
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,728
Carl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Carl Offline


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Let's stay on topic folks.


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#270759 - 2017-12-15 17:55 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: gIzzE]
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Posts: 2,252
Hector Offline
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Hector Offline
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Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,252
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Originally Posted By gIzzE
Many see it as a lossy format that is simply there to line the pockets of many.

There is real hatred out there towards MQA.
Maybe hatred stems from jealousy as is oft encountered in the human experience.

At least Tidal have embraced "Masters" and made the recordings available to the converted.
Why does outdated religion appear in our common goal for perfection?
Please pardon this historical analogy.

I will get my multi coloured dream coat.

Hector


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#270760 - 2017-12-15 18:52 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: Hector]
Registered: 2012-12-04
Posts: 476
JaapJan Offline
Paranoid android
JaapJan Offline
Paranoid android

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Posts: 476
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Sounds to me it is time for a hashtag offense wink


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#270761 - 2017-12-15 19:21 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: gIzzE]
Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,442
GMT Offline
Working on the ultimate question
GMT Offline
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Posts: 1,442
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, UK
Originally Posted By gIzzE
I was comparing Tidal with Spotify when it came to Alexa searching.

The qobuz thing was with regard to discussions on the other HiFi forums, many see it as a better service 'proper' Hi-Res if you want it, and great catalogue.

MQA is not going to be a saviour, in fact many still see it as the anti christ.
I don't think you could class anyone that posts on hifi forums as you average music stream user. When you say "many" you are probably referring to less than 0.1% of total music stream users.

Cheers
Tom


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#270763 - 2017-12-15 21:41 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: GMT]
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gIzzE Offline
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gIzzE Offline
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No, but if you can't get them to buy into Hi Res, MQA or even lossless, what hope have you got?

Tidal and qobuz are very much for those who appreciate better quality, it is how they sell their service after all, however with Spotify at 43% market share and Tidal only having 1%, and qobuz not even registering, it shows just how little appeal hi quality has even to those who you would expect to jump on it.


No Darling, I've had it months!
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#270764 - 2017-12-15 22:46 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: gIzzE]
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GMT Offline
Working on the ultimate question
GMT Offline
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Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, UK
I don't think they'll need buy in. It will just be an extra pointless spec on a phone that someone will tick off when selecting. I mean who needed buy in for parking cameras in cars> Did F1 drivers give it their approval? laugh 1080P 4K 3D digital assistants superfoods wellfulness panoramic sunroofs organic food probiotic yoghurt colonic irrigation must people don't understand it, but they think they should have it because its there (well maybe not the last one!)

Cheers
Tom


Main: G68J, 218 HD621, 3*5200s (2 SE L&R),DSW, 2* Reviver, 3200s,SBT, PS4, Amazon TV Fire, Dune Base 3.0, Xbox, NUC (Roon server & Kodi)
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#270767 - 2017-12-16 00:07 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: GMT]
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Sir Ron Ekim Offline
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Agree totally with that, Tom.

The non-enthusiast masses mainly need to be told what their next “must have” is. They don’t really set the bar or dictate buy in.

That’s why I think MQA might have a future because Bob and co have concentrated on the supply side quite a bit.
At some point those three letters can be the next must have when other differentiators have dried up.

That said, it’s a long haul, and Tidal may not see the distance.


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#270769 - 2017-12-16 00:42 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: Sir Ron Ekim]
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Posts: 1,905
gIzzE Offline
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gIzzE Offline
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Posts: 1,905
Loc: Norwich, UK
Just read an article with the Mastering Engineer Brian Lucey, they start talking about MQA....

An Interview With Mastering Engineer Brian Lucey


This is all I keep hearing from pretty much everywhere apart from hear and the Roon forum.

Nearly everyone on the other forums are saying the same,


John Atkinson seems to be single handily carrying the MQA torch, albeit with test signals that don't really mean bugger all and concluded his last article saying that on DACs where you can force MQA mode you get the same effects whether you are playing an MQA track or not, which I'm not sure is really helping the case at all?

But if I were Tidal I'm not sure I would be pushing MQA as my niche. I would concentrate on trying to match users listening history to new artists they might like, that is where I feel these streaming companies will win out in the long run.



I was reading a thread on Audiogon last night, it was asking about Aurender and MQA, Brian Lucey popped up again, he went into a bit more detail about the MQA encoding, a couple of interesting points he makes...

Originally Posted By BrianLucey
brianlucey

Just keep in mind as you rush to spend money on the latest tech that MQA will fail. Bob's stated aim is to change all music production to AD-Processing-DA with MQA not just DA over PCM.

Secondly, MQA is not "better than" the PCM source in 99% of intentionally distorted and compressed pop music. That's just their marketing to get MQA in the door then take over later. I would know, I make the source files. MQA knows this too. Only for super natural acoustic/natural music based in realism is there even a tiny opportunity for advantage with the MQA round trip. And not nearly as important as a better amp, speakers, DA, etc. Pop music and classical music from tape or digital PCM to MQA? Forget it.

From Michael of Berkeley Audio, who is on board with MQA: I spoke with Bob Stuart about your concerns regarding the marketing of MQA and he conceded you have valid point. He also said that “de-blurring” (the MQA time-domain filter fixup) can be omitted during encoding and that doing so would be appropriate in situations such as yours where what could be considered technical artifacts of the A/D conversion process are part of a large number of factors that were combined deliberately to produce the precise sound of the mastered recording. "

Including and adjusting for the AD artifacts is part of the gig in mastering. I suggest people push for streaming of master files or use the services coming on to stream them. If you want to have a nice 16 bit file, use dbPoweramp to shrink your files, it's far better than MQA.




I think it would probably do some people on here some good to join many other forums, it seems everyone on here has been chasing the MQA trail so hard over the last 2 years and spending serious money doing so, and I'm not sure if it had been anyone other than Bob Stuart at the helm there would have been any interest, let alone the gushing of interest we have seen?

I have been using some Harbeth P3ESR monitors recently in my sitting room, with a Meridian Explorer 2 and Quad amp. The MQA files on Tidal often sound different, but on that system, which is very revealing I'm personally not sure I like them as much.
The difference reminds me of the difference between 18 bit and 24 bit DSP5000s, the 24 bit ones just sounded like everything was a little smoother, more grown up, more refined, where as the 18 bits could sound a bit more exciting, a bit more raw.
For me the regular PCM version sounds more like the 24 bit sound I liked so much.

I guess I am now concerned that Tidal is going to have all their files a 'Masters' files, and a regular 16/44 pcm file will disappear, I want the option of both. Many might have the same concerns as me, it might even be the majority? Which is not great for the future of Tidal.


No Darling, I've had it months!
Edited by gIzzE; 2017-12-16 09:31.
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#270773 - 2017-12-16 09:18 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: gIzzE]
Registered: 2012-12-04
Posts: 476
JaapJan Offline
Paranoid android
JaapJan Offline
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Posts: 476
Loc: Land van Maas en Waal, Netherl...
Going off topic here but not sure what this comment means
Brian Lucey says:
NOVEMBER 20, 2017
I have authenticated nothing here, and my work is on Tidal as MQA. Nuff said.

Hé is saying that mastering engineers sign off for authentication. My understanding is that artists or the owners of the master signs of.
Also, when the engineer masters and listens back on same equipment he has no need for time smear correction, the market using all kind of replay equipment need correction unless they have identical equipment as the master was created on. Hence on my kit MQA sounds better than non MQA, my ears don't lie.

Cheers!


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#270774 - 2017-12-16 10:07 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: JaapJan]
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gIzzE Offline
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gIzzE Offline
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Registered: 2004-01-04
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Loc: Norwich, UK
I think the important thing hear is many of the Mastering Engineers are saying that MQA actually changes what they have done or adds to what they have done depending on you view/listen to it.

These are the guys that know what sound they were going for when it left their studio, many of them are saying when they listen back to an MQA track it sounds different, it is not what they where trying to achieve.

I think this sums up what I am hearing with many MQA tracks, highlighted in bold...

Originally Posted By Brian Lucey
MQA brightens the high-mids in the Mid section while thinning the low-mids on the Sides. There’s also some harmonic distortion which some people could find pleasing, If I want that distortion in the master I would’ve put it there in the first place. The results of MQA I would call fatal to the source material even as they are very subtle.
The second part of above is, I think very, very important.

Because of what I am finding with the first part above, I don't want Tidal to have MASTERS only available to me.

I'm tied into Tidal because I have moved to Roon 100%, all my sources are now pretty much Roon only too, so I need it to work going forward, so please don't think I am slagging it off, I just have concerns for it long term. And moving away from this forum and the Roon forum, it has made me realise that there is far more negativity out there for MQA than there is positivity it seems. And while Tidal get so deep into bed with MQA my worry is many will see Tidal as the MQA streaming service which could do more damage than good.


No Darling, I've had it months!
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#270776 - 2017-12-16 10:34 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: gIzzE]
Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,259
ChrisLayerUK Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ChrisLayerUK Offline
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Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,259
Loc: Colchester, Essex, UK
My old mum used to say, ‘Empty cans make most noise’ lol
I still think this applies to MQA haters in my opinion. There are plenty of engineers supporting MQA obviously they have been bought...

MQA is what it is, what’s so threatening?

Thoughts.


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#270777 - 2017-12-16 10:56 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: ChrisLayerUK]
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gIzzE Offline
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gIzzE Offline
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Registered: 2004-01-04
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Loc: Norwich, UK
Nothing threatening as such, just that a lot of the material I am hearing is not as 'nice' as the regular PCM version.

At first I found it more airy, faster, livelier and fresh, but more recently I have found it thin, not warm enough and too bright.

That was however on a much smoother, almost too smooth, a system though.
I would still say my Quad/Harbeth system is on the warm side, but this system certainly shows stuff with MQA I didn't hear previously.

I guess it is very system dependant.


I really didn't want this to become anti MQA, I was just pointing out that although on here MQA is universally the saviour, which it has been before its release, there are just as many who really don't like it, what it stands for and more importantly the way it sounds.

As long as people have choice it is fine, but what many don't want to see is decently mastered PCM being replaced by MQA on the streaming platforms.

I will admit, I went looking for opinions of MQA on other forums when I got my Harbeth set up, as I was quite shocked I wasn't liking the MQA files as much. I have to say I was even more shocked at how much negativity there is out there for MQA. I will be honest, I presumed that MQA, with the odd exception, was universally loved and that everyone was wanting it to be available on everything, that simply is not the case.


No Darling, I've had it months!
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#270778 - 2017-12-16 11:28 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: gIzzE]
Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,259
ChrisLayerUK Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ChrisLayerUK Offline
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Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,259
Loc: Colchester, Essex, UK
I agree that people should have a choice with material already in existence MQA or not and any other variation people wish to purchase. I expect people are familiar with and like what they are used to. MQA clearly changes something and some people don’t like it.

New material will be MQA if the producers wish it to be. Of course people will be able to release music in any guise they choose. If MQA becomes the ‘Original’ for new material then that is as valid as the sound of a 60’s single played on a Jukebox. It is what it is. I love a real Jukebox.....
Being as this situation will always be the way of things I just can’t understand the vitreol you find on forums. Luckily these forums have a self selecting audience and round in circles it goes.
The science will win out in the end but the debate will roll on.
The MQA I have heard sounds great undecoded and decoded to me, but I appreciate others see and hear things differently, there is nothing wrong with that.
I don’t think this thread is coming across as anti MQA at all.


No 18 in the Hall of fame smile I have simple tastes; I am content to settle for the best: GIK monster bass panels, rear wall.
MC200 500GB, QNAP TVS 471i3. Roon into 2 MS200's. Explorer 2. Bluesound Pulse 2 and Mini. 596 v1.89.2, 518, G61R, M60.2 Rosewood, M33C, M33 Rears, M1500 Sub, Foxsat HD, Sony Blu Ray, Pioneer 5090, 2 Chromecast's for LRB videos.
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#270780 - 2017-12-16 14:29 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: ChrisLayerUK]
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gIzzE Offline
Knows where his towel is
gIzzE Offline
Knows where his towel is

Registered: 2004-01-04
Posts: 1,905
Loc: Norwich, UK
Originally Posted By ChrisLayerUK
I don’t think this thread is coming across as anti MQA at all.
Phew!

I think it has to be selective, I still think some albums sound amazing with MQA, just surprised some of the ones I preferred before, I now don't like as much, on the other system.

My thinking is, someone who has a bright system to start with, maybe Naim, might well find it too much.

The thing is, with us lot being Meridian, which is a pretty smooth, yet detailed, we probably like as clean a medium as we can possible get as it still never sounds bright or fatiguing.


No Darling, I've had it months!
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#270786 - 2017-12-16 16:11 Re: TIDAL financial health [Re: gIzzE]
Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,252
Hector Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
Hector Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,252
Loc: Midlands, UK
Yes Guy, you pays your money and live with what you get.
I can understand the opinion of the creative Mr Lucey but he has chosen the "minority of one position" as he confirms (if I understand his comment correctly) he works 100% independently of others views. i.e. you will get what I give you and the result of any interference is not what I intended. Hmmm!
Interpret this as you will.

Consensus and much needed improvement will be hard to achieve with such polarised attitudes.

Long live Tidal and MQA. It works for me, just my POV

Hector


AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1LR, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD.
DINING: MS600, AC200, DSP5200SLLR.
STUDY 504, SB Touch, 2x MD600, C15, 808.6, 5200SE, Mac & PC, Explorer v1, Prime+PS Grado GS1000i
HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys
A capella to Zydeco
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