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#266608 - 2017-08-04 20:57 Why is one M controller better than another?
Registered: 2010-02-14
Posts: 315
David Haworth Offline
Hitchhiker
David Haworth Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2010-02-14
Posts: 315
Loc: Warrington, United Kingdom
So I was wondering.. why is one controller any different in sound quality from another? I've read on various threads over the years the the 568 has a warmer tone than the more clinical G series, but the 861 is more like the 568 but better etc..

But why? I thought the whole point of Meridian was that the digital signal is well protected from change all the way to the speakers? so if that's the case why would any controller be different?

I understand that changes can come in when the signal is processed, so perhaps one processor up-samples in a better manner than another, or maybe one is a bit better at jitter, but how much of a difference is there, and if it's not processing the signal then why would there be any difference?

If a 96/24 stereo SPDIF signal is fed into a AC200/DSP5200 and an 818v3/DSP5200, my reading of this forum would indicate that the latter would sound better, but I don't understand why?

Can anyone explain it?


Lounge: LG 55B6v, Lyngdorf TDAI2170, Anthony Gallo Reference AV, M&K MX7000SF, RPi, AppleTV, Some crappy Sony bluray
Office: NuForce HDP, Parasound Zamp, Monitor Audio CPW Gold
Headphones: Sennheiser HD6XX, B&O H6mk2
Should sell sometime: 568 + 3xDSP33
Land Rover Discovery with 825w Meridian sound system
Explorer v1
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#266610 - 2017-08-05 07:04 Re: Why is one M controller better than another? [Re: David Haworth]
Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,259
ChrisLayerUK Online content
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ChrisLayerUK Online content
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,259
Loc: Colchester, Essex, UK
I expect technology just moves on and newer units get the trickle down of development.
I remember the improvement I heard when moving from a 565 to a G61R.
I heard backing vocals clearly on a track I'd never heard them on before. (Rebecca Pulley, Sweet Life).
Now if I play this on my 565 I do hear them but it took the G61 for me to notice it.
This is with analog Meridian active speakers.
Sorry, no technical answer. Chris


No 18 in the Hall of fame smile I have simple tastes; I am content to settle for the best: GIK monster bass panels, rear wall.
MC200 500GB, QNAP TVS 471i3. Roon into 2 MS200's. Explorer 2. Bluesound Pulse 2 and Mini. 596 v1.89.2, 518, G61R, M60.2 Rosewood, M33C, M33 Rears, M1500 Sub, Foxsat HD, Sony Blu Ray, Pioneer 5090, 2 Chromecast's for LRB videos.
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#266611 - 2017-08-05 07:45 Re: Why is one M controller better than another? [Re: ChrisLayerUK]
Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,494
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,494
Loc: Surrey, England, UK
Signal timing and purity would play a part. Plus in some circumstances, how you handle unused bits in the data. And a bit of black magic, state of the human mind and environmental factors.

Music sounds much better played quietly at 5am than it does played at 10pm. Ymmv.


Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
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#266613 - 2017-08-05 08:04 Re: Why is one M controller better than another? [Re: David Haworth]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,355
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic

Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,355
Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
For a digital-only device, apart from differences in DSP (up-sampling, resolution enhancement, etc.), it's the engineering implementation which ultimately affects jitter. Look at it this way: you might have the best possible clock on your circuit board, but if the circuit board *itself* is polluting the clock signals...

For a device with analogue outputs, all of the above applies, but also the quality of components and implementation of the DAC. For example, Meridian tend to favour multi-bit delta-sigma DACs, which means cleaning up the associated ultrasonic noise and doing so with minimal damage to the phase of the actual music signal.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#266619 - 2017-08-05 12:27 Re: Why is one M controller better than another? [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2010-02-14
Posts: 315
David Haworth Offline
Hitchhiker
David Haworth Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2010-02-14
Posts: 315
Loc: Warrington, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By VirusKiller
For a digital-only device, apart from differences in DSP (up-sampling, resolution enhancement, etc.), it's the engineering implementation which ultimately affects jitter. Look at it this way: you might have the best possible clock on your circuit board, but if the circuit board *itself* is polluting the clock signals...
So for a digital only device, is the answer just jitter? An 818 is better at dealing with jitter on inputs and internally than a 565? I can believe that it would be, but it would seem surprising that it has that much effect.

Originally Posted By VirusKiller
For a device with analogue outputs, all of the above applies, but also the quality of components and implementation of the DAC. For example, Meridian tend to favour multi-bit delta-sigma DACs, which means cleaning up the associated ultrasonic noise and doing so with minimal damage to the phase of the actual music signal.
If there's DAC's involved then I totally get it, different implementations can lead to different outputs, it's when all the processing is digital that I'm a bit confused.

One of the selling points of Meridian is that the signal is preserved and not coloured by the components due to being digital all the way to the speaker, but if the signal is not coloured then why would there be any differences, even between current gen products, like the G65 and the 861?


Lounge: LG 55B6v, Lyngdorf TDAI2170, Anthony Gallo Reference AV, M&K MX7000SF, RPi, AppleTV, Some crappy Sony bluray
Office: NuForce HDP, Parasound Zamp, Monitor Audio CPW Gold
Headphones: Sennheiser HD6XX, B&O H6mk2
Should sell sometime: 568 + 3xDSP33
Land Rover Discovery with 825w Meridian sound system
Explorer v1
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#266621 - 2017-08-05 14:00 Re: Why is one M controller better than another? [Re: David Haworth]
Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,259
ChrisLayerUK Online content
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ChrisLayerUK Online content
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,259
Loc: Colchester, Essex, UK
We also have to accept the idea of diminishing returns. Thing will be better for sound engineering reasons but is the differance worth it to you personally. Where do you stop chasing the dragon?

This morning I have been setting up an audio system for the Little Rabbit Barn friends BBQ. We have a cheap Sony Bluray player and Chrome Cast vis a Samsung TV optical into my 565 DAC which feeds an older Mackie mixer to the Mackie active PA speakers.
Also a Sonus into the same mixer.



The 565 and Blue `Ray Player



Mixing desk Dbx and Sonos

The result is that it sounds lovely and convincing playing back recordings made in the same room. I am certain everyone will be very happy with the sound.



The overall look. Note the Mackie sub. This is one of two we use gig nights and it can make my trousers flap as I'm filming from in front of it lol



Notice this last picture has Hector of this parish on the TV screen enjoying Berkeley Hart Selis and Twang gig. He was honourably present lol Thanks David.

Sure a top end processor and DSP 8 K speakers would bring major benefits but will we have any better fun by the time wine is flowing? I dought it.


No 18 in the Hall of fame smile I have simple tastes; I am content to settle for the best: GIK monster bass panels, rear wall.
MC200 500GB, QNAP TVS 471i3. Roon into 2 MS200's. Explorer 2. Bluesound Pulse 2 and Mini. 596 v1.89.2, 518, G61R, M60.2 Rosewood, M33C, M33 Rears, M1500 Sub, Foxsat HD, Sony Blu Ray, Pioneer 5090, 2 Chromecast's for LRB videos.
Edited by ChrisLayerUK; 2017-08-06 07:42. Edit Reason: Added pics and comment
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#266623 - 2017-08-05 16:55 Re: Why is one M controller better than another? [Re: ChrisLayerUK]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,355
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic

Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,355
Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
Originally Posted By ChrisLayerUK
Where do you stop chasing the dragon?
At a rehab centre? grin

(sorry Chris, couldn't resist)


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#266652 - 2017-08-06 07:41 Re: Why is one M controller better than another? [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,259
ChrisLayerUK Online content
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ChrisLayerUK Online content
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,259
Loc: Colchester, Essex, UK
No 0ffence taken lol. I've fleshed out my last with pics of my addiction.....


No 18 in the Hall of fame smile I have simple tastes; I am content to settle for the best: GIK monster bass panels, rear wall.
MC200 500GB, QNAP TVS 471i3. Roon into 2 MS200's. Explorer 2. Bluesound Pulse 2 and Mini. 596 v1.89.2, 518, G61R, M60.2 Rosewood, M33C, M33 Rears, M1500 Sub, Foxsat HD, Sony Blu Ray, Pioneer 5090, 2 Chromecast's for LRB videos.
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#266657 - 2017-08-06 11:47 Re: Why is one M controller better than another? [Re: ChrisLayerUK]
Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,252
Hector Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
Hector Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,252
Loc: Midlands, UK
OK it is my fault entirely. Class A recreational drug addiction is especially dangerous when the home use is Meridian and LRB is used at the weekends. I take full responsibility for the LRB introduction.

Hector


AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1LR, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD.
DINING: MS600, AC200, DSP5200SLLR.
STUDY 504, SB Touch, 2x MD600, C15, 808.6, 5200SE, Mac & PC, Explorer v1, Prime+PS Grado GS1000i
HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys
A capella to Zydeco
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#266659 - 2017-08-06 13:21 Re: Why is one M controller better than another? [Re: Hector]
Registered: 2003-10-04
Posts: 2,012
spinaltap Offline
Knows where his towel is
spinaltap Offline
Knows where his towel is

Registered: 2003-10-04
Posts: 2,012
Loc: Bournville, UK
I once home auditioned Meridian 518/566 alongside my 551, 555, 506 kit.

The insertion of the 518 unearthed a 'hidden' depth of sound I hadn't previously encountered, especially in classical music.


My Mac can go all the way to XI - Mac user since 1988.
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#266667 - 2017-08-06 20:00 Re: Why is one M controller better than another? [Re: spinaltap]
Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,252
Hector Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
Hector Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,252
Loc: Midlands, UK
Hi spinaltap
Agreed 518 is a great bit of kit that offers owners many options.
518 was also a great experience for me c/w 500 player and 18bit 5Ks, when funds were not available for speaker 96/24 upgrade.

Hector


AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1LR, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD.
DINING: MS600, AC200, DSP5200SLLR.
STUDY 504, SB Touch, 2x MD600, C15, 808.6, 5200SE, Mac & PC, Explorer v1, Prime+PS Grado GS1000i
HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys
A capella to Zydeco
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