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#258294 - 2017-01-25 12:30 Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs
Registered: 2006-04-18
Posts: 12
Trader99 Offline
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Trader99 Offline
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Registered: 2006-04-18
Posts: 12
Loc: Hong Kong
Does anyone know if the DSP8ks have any power conditioning built-in?

I've had the speakers for a number of years and been using the standard plugs that came with them, with a standard surge protected power block for the speaker that's far from the socket.

When I had the speakers upgraded to SE's it was recommended that some kind of power conditioning was used. All these were recommended: Audioquest NRG-4, Audioquest NRG=10, Isol-8 Mini-Sub Axis, Isol-8 Ultra Powerline.

But given the cost of the DSP8ks my feeling was that Meridian surely must be satisfied with their own conditioning as they only provide a standard power cable. If a better cable improved the sonic performance then it would be in Meridians interest to sell, recommend or include it in the package? Any thoughts? (I should note that I have no analogue in the system)

Thanks!


Audio: DSP8000SE upgrade, MC200, 818v3, Tidal, Bluesound
Movie1: Sony 520ES, 145”, Pan DMP-UB900, Oppo BDP-105D, Denon AVRX7200, Artcoustic Spitfire Subs, SL 8-4 (fronts) , SL4-2 (rears/sides), SL4-2 (4 ceiling)
Movie2: 861v4, DSP5500HC, Revel Ultima Sub 30, PS3, Sim2 HT5000, 134”screen, Faroudja DVP-1010, Consider4x M6 to replace DSP8k's
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#258296 - 2017-01-25 13:21 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Trader99]
Registered: 2007-11-03
Posts: 502
Dollar2 Offline
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Posts: 502
Loc: Durham, CT, USA
I would look into a power conditioner only if I had poor power service from the utility. I have good power so I plug my 8KSEs straight into the wall. I do have a whole house surge protector in my panel that protects my A/V circuits.


Regards,
Bill

Sys 1: AC200, (2) DSP3200s, (4) P320is
Sys 2: 861v8+ID41, 218, (2) DSP8KSEs, DSP7200VCSE, (2) DSP5200s, Marantz UD9004, (2) JL Audio F113s,
Sys 3: 861v4+ID40, (2) DSP5200s, DSP5200HC
Sys 4: Prime HPA+PS, Focal Utopia
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#258298 - 2017-01-25 13:50 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Trader99]
Registered: 2001-05-23
Posts: 2,718
Gianni Offline
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Registered: 2001-05-23
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I would make sure that any active power conditioning device can handle the current required by the DSP8000s.

Five 150w amplifiers per speaker (specifications vary across datasheets) is 750w. Offering a generous 33% efficiency suggest they really need ~2250w. At Hong Kong's 220V standard that is around 10 amps per speaker.

See for example the Isol-8 power specifications which show a maximum of 10 amps across one or all power outlets.

When my second-user DSP8000s were installed one of them blew the plug fuse at switch-on as somehow an IEC cable with a lower value (3 amp) fuse had got into the mix. A 13 amp fuse was needed.


Wonderful perfect quadraphonic sound with distortion levels so low as to make a brave man weep smile
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#258300 - 2017-01-25 14:46 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Gianni]
Registered: 2010-08-22
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Shankar Offline
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I am using a Furman 1500K UPS on my Front 8000kSEs. It has a meter that indicates power consumption. At the maximum bearable volume the pair consumes 750W.

I have sized the UPS to provide a 100% headroom.

Shankar


Oppo UDP-203, Sonos, Nvidia Streamer, Cable, Trinnov Altitude32 into Dan D'Agostino Momentum into Wilson Alexa 2, Paradigm Sub 1, Monitor Audio In Wall surrounds, Sony VW550ES
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#258301 - 2017-01-25 15:52 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Shankar]
Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,290
Crion Online content
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I use a Shunyata Triton v2 for the three front speakers 2x DSP8000SE, DSP7200HCSE on a separate 16A/240V breaker.

My experience is that Meridian wants to keep the current clean and powerful. If you would put in a current limiting conditioner - that would hamper the instantaneous current draw of the speakers. Everything is drawn in pulses or bursts especially if you analyze the current draw of amplifiers.

Audio performance will not just be limited by the MAX current draw of the system, rather the burst draw capability of the complete system chain combined with low noise. This equals more percussive dynamics and clearer texture and ambience detail if attended to.


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#258302 - 2017-01-25 15:59 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Gianni]
Registered: 2000-05-28
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Fiddler Offline
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Originally Posted By Gianni
Five 150w amplifiers per speaker (specifications vary across datasheets) is 750w. Offering a generous 33% efficiency suggest they really need ~2250w. At Hong Kong's 220V standard that is around 10 amps per speaker.
You can't go by the output wattage what the input load requirement is. Just look at the specs.

From the DSP8000SE Data Sheet

POWER
20W standby, 920W max


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
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#258304 - 2017-01-25 16:12 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2001-05-23
Posts: 2,718
Gianni Offline
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So either Meridian are claiming a very high >81% efficiency for the DSP8000 power amplifiers or they are providing "optimistic" figures for power output and/or consumption. grin

Your point is well made and taken however. cool


Wonderful perfect quadraphonic sound with distortion levels so low as to make a brave man weep smile
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#258309 - 2017-01-25 16:33 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Gianni]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,659
Fiddler Offline
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Does Meridian state it can drive all 150watt amps simultaneously? No (not that I know of anyway).

Do they state how long they can sustain all 5 amps at 150watts? No (not that I know of).

There is also the response time. How quickly does that power need to be delivered? That's what the capacitors are for. But the faster the response the higher the instantaneous power required. But that does not make it all the way back to the AC lines.

The spec is what the AC line will see. Worst case. As an entire system. The Amp spec is what ONE amp can do.

There are a ton of variables between the input and output. Not just the efficiency of the power supply.

How much reserve is stored in the huge Toroidal transformer, how much is stored in those huge capacitors.

As pointed out above it would be VERY hard to get any where near the 950 watts. Yours ears would probably be bleeding before reaching 500 watts.

But also keep in mind that watt meters average over some time period. And it's hard to know what the peak load is over a shorter span of time and if that shorter span of time would even hit the AC line or be absorbed by the capacitors.

But I think the spec would be the safest spec to go with, with oodles of margin.


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
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#258323 - 2017-01-25 20:33 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2003-09-15
Posts: 375
JohnMcElfresh Offline
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As I recall, long ago Meridian HQ (can't remember the individual) went on record on this forum stating they prefer NO power conditioning on DSP speakers.


My system: Apple TV, HD621, G68D, AC11, 218, DSP7200SE (L+R), DSP3200 (L+R Rear) [Zone 2 - M3100 L+R]
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#258332 - 2017-01-26 03:55 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: JohnMcElfresh]
Registered: 2002-09-24
Posts: 285
JOE-C Offline
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I have been told the same thing (
no conditioners recommended) by a few of Meridian's hierarchy over the years.

I think every demo I have attended put on by a dealer with M reps in attendance have used Transparent Audio power cables plugged directly into the wall socket along with Transparent interconnects where needed.

I know M USA always liked Transparent audio products but I know that is another subject (after market power cords etc.) that can be controversial.


My M gear: 861v8 with ID41, 800v3, HD621, 8000.1(SEs),7200.1(SE),320s,3200s,5500s ,SW5500s ,MS200 (2nd zone),218.
Other: JVC RS-500 projector, Prismasonic HD-5000 anamorphic lens, Panasonic UB900, Oppo BDP-103D, QNAP TS-251 (M core and store).
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#258359 - 2017-01-26 16:50 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: JohnMcElfresh]
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 336
Cmr600 Offline
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Originally Posted By JohnMcElfresh
As I recall, long ago Meridian HQ (can't remember the individual) went on record on this forum stating they prefer NO power conditioning on DSP speakers.
That's true, so let's see how we get on now mine are connected to Kenya power frown

Nervous will be an understatement!


M Customer since 1991...

M Kit: 861v8+ID41, 8000SE's, 7200HCSE, HD621, Explorer 2, AD88

Non M Kit: 27inch Roon Touchscreen (Lenovo), QNAP TVS-871-i7-16G 8 Bay NAS, Philips 4k Ambilight TV, Hue Lighting System, TiVO, PS3, ATV (v.4) Shure SE846 Headphones & a whole lot of Apple stuff...
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#258366 - 2017-01-26 19:47 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Cmr600]
Registered: 2012-12-04
Posts: 476
JaapJan Offline
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JaapJan Offline
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Registered: 2012-12-04
Posts: 476
Loc: Land van Maas en Waal, Netherl...
Don't worry there in Africa. It is either on or off but mostly off which saves you conditioning it. eek


System 1: MC200, 818v3, DSP7200SE
System 2: boxed (DSP5000.1, Monarchy DIP24/96, Squeezebox Duet.)
Office: MS200, STAX SRM-323II, SR303
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#258411 - 2017-01-27 23:24 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: JaapJan]
Registered: 2000-06-08
Posts: 267
Marc Koval Offline
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for the OP.

No power "conditioning" built in. Massive transformer and lots of reservoir. If you want to condition you need something that can deliver up to 10 amps instantly.

Marc


Marc Koval
The Repair Shop
404-585-1102
marc<dot>koval<at>gmail<dot>com

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#258426 - 2017-01-28 09:54 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Marc Koval]
Registered: 2012-02-20
Posts: 263
Clemburt Offline
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How many amps would a 5200SE require?


Main system: MD600, 818v3, 5200SE, Rupert Neve headphone amp, Sennheiser HD650, Oppo PM-3
Kitchen: MS200, F80
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#258433 - 2017-01-28 11:35 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Clemburt]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,614
RobertW Online content
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Posts: 2,614
Loc: Austria, Europe
Be carefull with all your power conditioners refer to very short current surges.
The charging capacitor in the internal power supply have to get loaded from the main voltage through rectifier (they made the AC/DC conversation).
The charging capacitor smooth out the half sine waves from the rectifier.

When the half sine voltage go up to the peak the capacitor get loaded.
That time is very short,its about from zero(no charging) to about few milliseconds(1-3ms depends on the load). So in that few milliseconds(1/1000 of a second) a very high current flow to charge the capacitor.
At that moment even the main current is very high !
I measured ONE 8k on the main when a deep organ tone was played very loud. The current of the main line only for one speaker was 37,5 amps for 1,5 milliseconds !!

My speakers runs on 230 VAC so for US main voltage the current have to be even higher(2x) to give the same power as for 230 VAC.
The average power is about only 70 watts when you measure it with a good power meter as only very special meters can catch such a short time.
So your power conditioner have to deliver that current/power in that short time(few milliseconds) not in 10 or 20 ms.
And that is the problem where the problems starts with loads thats need a lot power even only for a short moment. With sources that kind of problem does not appear or not important.
But as all, finally your ears decide what you want/need/avoide.


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
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#260053 - 2017-02-19 01:02 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: JOE-C]
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 42
Cleop Offline
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Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
I've tried so many power cables on my DSP8000's, I've lost count. Many of them were filtered, including top-of-the-line products from Transparent, MIT, Kimber, and Shunyata.

I've also tried various power conditioners with the speakers from Shunyata, PS Audio, Silent Running, Adept Response, Acoustic Revive, Sound Application, Synergistic Research, Exact Power, Equitec, and Walker Audio (and probably some others I'm forgetting about).

Basically, I've tried tweaking my 8000's to death from a power conditioning standpoint.

Pretty much everything I tried colored the sound and/or constricted dynamics. All of the power conditioners sapped the life out of the music. The best of the power cords was the Shunyata Sigma HC, which does have some mild filtration (but apparently not that much, since it's designed to be used with, not instead of, the company's power conditioners) but otherwise is essentially a large-gauge, well-constructed PC with high-quality connectors.

Then, about three months ago, based on my positive experience with the Sigma HC and some rave reviews in the press (what else do audio magazines publish these days?), I decided to try a Shunyata Denali 2000 power conditioner on my 8000's. To my great surprise and amazement, it made everything better with no discernible side-effects. The music was more natural and dimensional, the highs cleaner, the bass more defined -- and all without dynamic restriction. In short, it was -- and is three months later -- exactly what I always wanted out of a power conditioner.

Now, there are a number of highly-respected power conditioners out there I still haven't tried (the Audioquest 7000 and the Isoteck products come to mind). But I can't imagine any of them being significantly better than the Denali, and I'm sure many aren't as good. For all you DSP owners out there, I highly recommend you at least try a Denali in your system before considering any other tweak. Needless to say, I bought the one I tried.

One last caveat: my system is not on a dedicated electrical circuit, so it's always possible the effects of the Denali would be less pronounced with a system that is on its own circuit.

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#260239 - 2017-02-20 23:42 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Cleop]
Registered: 2007-11-11
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AudioBoy Offline
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Cleop,
Do you still need the expensive Power cords after acquiring the Denali power conditioner? Does it remove the need to have them or are they still preferred as part of your setup?

Have you tried any conditioners based on isolation or balanced configurations like Torus, Equi=tech etc?

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#260307 - 2017-02-21 17:15 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: AudioBoy]
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 42
Cleop Offline
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I already had the Shunyata Sigma power cords, so I saw no reason to take them out. To be honest, I haven't compared the system with and without them since I got the Denali. I like what I'm hearing, and that's enough for me.

Yes, I tried several different versions of the Equi=Tech balanced line conditioners. I felt they slightly leaned out the sound and reduced dynamics. A friend has one of their huge wall panels, which should swing more current and help with the dynamics, and he used to swear by it until he tried an Audioquest Niagra 7000, which he feels made a big improvement. I have to believe that if the Equi=Tech did everything right, I doubt he would've noticed such an improvement when he added the Niagara.

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#260313 - 2017-02-21 17:49 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Cleop]
Registered: 2002-02-14
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ncpl Offline
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@ Cleop, thanks for the info. Do you use 1x Denali for both 8k's or one for each 8k?

Any thoughts on that (besides the cost)?


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#260383 - 2017-02-23 04:25 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: ncpl]
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 42
Cleop Offline
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Cleop Offline
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Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
I use one Denali for both speakers. Maybe two would be better -- I don't know.

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#260409 - 2017-02-23 15:23 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Cleop]
Registered: 2002-02-14
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ncpl Offline
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Thanks. How does the maths stack up driving 2 DSP vs the spec of the Denali ? I may get a demo and see what gives anyway.


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#260412 - 2017-02-23 15:41 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Cleop]
Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,290
Crion Online content
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Crion Online content
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Denali 6000 is made to drive 2 poweramps and 4 front-end electronics.

If you want to scale this up you could complement with a Denali 2000 for just the DSP8k's on a dedicated breaker.

Denali 6000 is a perfect starting point if you want to really push down the noisefloor while keeping dynamics intact which the listener percieves in total as a dynamics increase. smile


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#260413 - 2017-02-23 15:48 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2010-12-09
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Ratbert Offline
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I am puzzled, push the noisefloor down, this surely depends on where you start or is it saying it does it regardless of the start point?

Russ


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#260417 - 2017-02-23 17:04 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Ratbert]
Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,290
Crion Online content
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Crion Online content
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Unless you are living in a controlled lab environment you have have a benefit from noisereduction on your mains power.

Every SMPS in your home connected is injecting high frequency distorsion into all other things connected including your audio gear.



Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#260418 - 2017-02-23 17:21 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 42
Cleop Offline
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I use a Denali 2000 on the DSP speakers, and a Shunyata Triton V3 on my front end. The Triton V3 uses the same new technology on all eight of its outlets that is used in the Denali 2000 and on the two high-current outlets of the Denali 6000. As I understand it, the technology reduces noise while not limiting current flow at all (in fact, Shunyata claims it actually enhances dynamics by acting as a current reserve, but they're coy about the details because it's the subject of a pending patent claim).

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#272109 - 2018-01-20 20:18 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: JohnMcElfresh]
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Soundserge Offline
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Originally Posted By JohnMcElfresh
As I recall, long ago Meridian HQ (can't remember the individual) went on record on this forum stating they prefer NO power conditioning on DSP speakers.
I remember this too. So I was surprised to read this on Shunyata's web site (emphasis mine). No explicit mention of use with DSPs:
Originally Posted By Meridian on Shunyata web site
Meridian is one of the most respected manufacturers of digital electronics and speaker systems in the world, and has demonstrated the superiority of their products in both the professional and consumer markets. Meridian products have earned their place at the finest audio-visual dealers in the United States for a reason — the unparalleled value and technology contained within their complete audio-visual systems.

Meridian-America was exposed to Shunyata Research products through mutual dealers, and requested an evaluation. After performing extensive testing, Ken Forsythe and the principles of Meridian-America determined that Shunyata Research products profoundly improved the performance of their reference and test systems. Meridian-America now recommends and endorses Shunyata Research products for use within all of their systems.


Sonictransporter + Roon, 818v3, DSP 5200SEs, 218, DSP3200s
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#272111 - 2018-01-20 21:01 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Soundserge]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,325
VirusKiller Offline
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I found the official statement in the FAQ on the 8k support page:

Quote:
9. SHOULD I USE MAINS CONDITIONING EQUIPMENT WITH THE LOUDSPEAKERS?

Quote:
No. Meridian DSP loudspeakers feature internal protection which, when activated, can demand high current from the mains supply in order to blow the fuse within the product. This is a deliberate aspect of their design and is a key safety feature. If, under these conditions, anything inhibits the current required to blow the fuse, the loudspeaker will be exposed to circumstances for which it was not designed. Such circumstances could result in catastrophic damage and become a fire-risk. It may be thought that this can be avoided by using a mains conditioner which boasts a current rating which is higher than that required to blow the loudspeaker’s fuse. However, the possibility of the mains conditioner itself developing a problem needs to be considered. If a problem in the conditioner restricts its current delivery capabilities, and then the loudspeaker suffers a failure as described above, the fuse may not blow and a serious risk of fire will result.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#272147 - 2018-01-21 16:58 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Soundserge]
Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,436
ncpl Offline
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Matches my findings exactly. Not cheap but in the Meridian world a very worthwhile step.

See my post on the topic a few months ago.


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#272159 - 2018-01-22 01:13 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Cleop]
Registered: 2004-02-02
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I'm a bit late to this party. But reading through the responses, there were some statements about the Equitech balanced power products. I don't understand where the comments about the sound being lifeless, leaned out, or reduced in dynamics are coming from. I have 3 Equitech products supplying power to my system; 1.5BQ, 2BQ, and 2Q. The 1.5BQ and 2BQ are the hardwired units where the 2Q is the rack mount unit with outlets. I have the 1.5BQ and 2BQ supplying power to my Bryston 6B-ST amp, Velodyne HGS15II, and Velodyne DD18 via dedicated circuits. The rest of my components are plugged into the 2Q including the Emotiva XPA-2 used for my rear surrounds. I have never noticed any constraints in dynamics or life with the sound in my system.

I've popped open the units and the heart of the Equitech products is the balanced power transformer. There's really not much more to it especially for the hard wired products. Here are pictures of the insides of the units I have. I find it hard to believe any of these units are holding back on any current draw.






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#272162 - 2018-01-22 12:31 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: GovCon]
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I have one of the noise "meters" demonstrated in the video - sound plus numeric readout. I just want to caution all that the exact same results can be realized with the $250 Monster Power Bar I bought in the early 1990s. Now I have no doubt that Shunyata, Equitech, et al have far more sophisticated devices, but I'm not sure an objective, measurable demo will lead you to an answer. I, myself have Exact Power conditioning on all my source components, but I don't condition my DSPs. Years ago I had a pair of high current of PS Audio Ultimate Outlets, but I don't believe they made a positive sonic difference. Many good amplifiers have excellent common mode noise rejection (Meridians DSPs do), which is what these transformer-based solution provide.

John


My system: Apple TV, HD621, G68D, AC11, 218, DSP7200SE (L+R), DSP3200 (L+R Rear) [Zone 2 - M3100 L+R]
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#272171 - 2018-01-22 17:18 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: JohnMcElfresh]
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Out of curiosity, what function is being improved by mains conditioning?

This stuff is converted to DC to run components. Does it therefore help by providing better DC?

Are they other ways of providing better DC by using better components inside?

Just trying to be logical (Captain...)

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#272173 - 2018-01-22 19:14 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Ogri]
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Originally Posted By Meridian on Shunyata web site
Meridian-America was exposed to Shunyata Research products through mutual dealers, and requested an evaluation. After performing extensive testing, Ken Forsythe and the principles of Meridian-America determined that Shunyata Research products profoundly improved the performance of their reference and test systems. Meridian-America now recommends and endorses Shunyata Research products for use within all of their systems.
Takes a lot of creative license from what was said to them by Ken.

Norm and I were there and vetted the email he sent. Cannot remember the exact quote but it boiled down to 'These don't seem to do any harm' Norm and I were very clear that we would not and could not endorse their products as an improvement to the sound quality.


Marc Koval
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marc<dot>koval<at>gmail<dot>com

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#272176 - 2018-01-22 19:31 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Marc Koval]
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What's your view on possible fire risk Marc?


Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
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#272178 - 2018-01-22 19:38 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Ogri]
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Originally Posted By Ogri
Out of curiosity, what function is being improved by mains conditioning?

This stuff is converted to DC to run components. Does it therefore help by providing better DC?

Are they other ways of providing better DC by using better components inside?

Just trying to be logical (Captain...)
Reading through the "science" around balanced power, it seemed to make some sense. My primary goal is to ensure clean/stable power. When I was investing in the Equitech equipment, I was building out my basement sound room. So it was just a natural progression of just adding in the hard wired components along with the rack mount unit. I got some great deals at the time going direct with Equitech. If I were to do it now, I don't know if I would have spent the now significant cost differential in having balanced power in my system.



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#272179 - 2018-01-22 20:29 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Ian]
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"What's your view on possible fire risk Marc?"

Don't screw with it. If you want you can replace with a "better" quality fuse of the same current and time spec. (from memory, 10A Delay Blow) but if you put in something bigger, or bypass the fuse, yes very good chance you can cause the speaker to catch fire if a fault occurs.


Marc Koval
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#272206 - 2018-01-23 16:57 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: _M_]
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I’m still interested in the theory. Presumably those spending money on this have an idea about the science? Not wanting a debate, just basic understanding.

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#272227 - 2018-01-24 00:20 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Marc Koval]
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The Shunyata products are completely passive, so I don't see how they could ever "fail" and reduce the current being provided to the DSP speakers. I suppose active conditioners like the Audioquest or PS Audio units could, so maybe they should be avoided.

Since my original post, I've replaced the Denali on my speakers with another Triton V3 (I already had one on my digital sources across the room). The Triton V3 supposedly has greater transient current delivery capabilities and isolates each of the three outlet banks from each other, and I must say I found it to be a significant improvement over the Denali. Again, my electrical system is pretty rudimentary, so I don't know if everyone would get the same level of improvement. And I have both Tritons physically isolated on top-of-the-line Harmonic Resolution stands (for some reason, they're very sensitive to what they're sitting on).

But even my wife -- who is a very casual listener at best -- noticed the music coming from the system sounded clearer and more natural and wondered why.

Just saying.

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#272240 - 2018-01-24 08:06 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Cleop]
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Originally Posted By Cleop
The Shunyata products are completely passive, so I don't see how they could ever "fail" and reduce the current being provided to the DSP speakers.
...
The Triton V3 supposedly has greater transient current delivery capabilities and isolates each of the three outlet banks from each other,
Is that a contradictory comment?

Sounds like the issue is that, in some fail conditions, Meridian DSP speakers rely on the main fuse blowing and having enough current on tap to achieve that. So anything that can limit this current draw may defeat this safety measure.

I appreciate that transient current is different to continuous, but a timed blow fuse will blow only with a non transient overcurrent event, so the issue is whether the supply can deliver the current required for enough time to blow the fuse.

So not sure how 'completely passive' and not reducing current to speakers vs allowing 'greater transient current delivery' does not mean that there is some current restriction possible.

Hopefully, these devices will not restrict continuous current to below that needed to blow the internal fuse.


Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
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#272251 - 2018-01-24 15:12 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Ian]
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I measured instantaneous current potential out of my wall outlets and the Denali. There was no issue there. These were not the same noise measurements I shared in my review post a few months ago.


Rgds,
Nick

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#272252 - 2018-01-24 15:33 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: ncpl]
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How did you do that Nick?


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#272256 - 2018-01-24 17:23 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: VirusKiller]
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I’m not going to get an answer (I’ll draw my own conclusions), still interested in the theory though? Innocent enough question.

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#272258 - 2018-01-24 17:54 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Ian]
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Cleop Offline
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When I said the Triton V3 has greater transient current delivery capabilities, I meant in comparison to the Denali. But you're right -- theoretically, anything placed between the speakers and the wall could have some effect on the amount of current being delivered to the speakers.

On the other hand, you could also say that about the quality of the power cord (the relatively cheap stock cord that comes with the speakers probably won't have the same currenty-carrying capacity or low impedance characteristics as a well-engineered aftermarket 6-guage cord), the quality of the wall outlet (a cheap Decora outlet with nickel-plated bronze contacts probably won't transfer current as effectively as a Furutech outlet with rhodium-plated pure copper contacts), or even the quality of the wire in the wall (thin, stranded wire probably won't be as good as thicker solid-core wire). The question is, where do you draw the line?

I think what Marc was getting at -- and he can chime in here -- is that gross current-delivery anomalies could impair the speakers' self-protection design, which is why Meridian historically has recommended against AC line conditioners. Perhaps that's also why Meridian apparently felt Shunyata's older models (which were likewise passive units but ostensibly not as good at passing current as today's designs) wouldn't do any harm (which admittedly is a far cry from an endorsement)?

Of course, the crux of the matter is not just whether the Shunyata products do no harm (although, that's certainly important), but whether they're a worthwhile addition. In my system, I believe they are.

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#272263 - 2018-01-24 23:01 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: VirusKiller]
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With a meter Joel. Typical electrician should have one.
Guillaume (the UK distributor) had one and we tested various sockets and combinations of things.


Rgds,
Nick

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#272336 - 2018-01-26 17:21 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: ncpl]
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#272338 - 2018-01-26 17:51 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: ncpl]
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Great, thanks.


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#272342 - 2018-01-26 23:00 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: ncpl]
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This is tongue in cheek right?

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#272362 - 2018-01-27 17:48 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Ogri]
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Here's one explanation recently given at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas by the designer of the Audioquest AC line conditioners (his presentation starts at 18:45 of the video).

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#272420 - 2018-01-29 16:47 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Cleop]
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Hi..i am a new user here. As per my knowledge a timed blow fuse will blow only with a non transient overcurrent event, so the issue is whether the supply can deliver the current required for enough time to blow the fuse.

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#272422 - 2018-01-29 17:20 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Cleop]
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Thanks for that. It described how wires can pick up signals/noise ( not new) but suddenly that’s coming out of the speakers raising the noise floor. The how was missing. These leaps from cause to effect are unconvincing without explanation but a showman can make them appear compelling. I get John Swenson’s points about grounding and current leakage, hence wondering about internal components/internal DC power.

I also get that amps need good power. I’d assume Meridian are aware of that and would have engineered a suitable supply. 8k power supplies are pretty chunky and I’m sure the National Grid can deliver. I’d assume they supply a cable capable of delivering the current required by their own power supplies. The conclusion would be that Meridian don’t quite understand what they are doing (even with the new high bandwidth amps in the SEs, unless they’ve changed power supply or cables), in which case 8k SEs are a bit of a leap of faith?

I’m not an engineer but just after some understanding, So thanks

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#272423 - 2018-01-29 17:21 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: NealXu]
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Originally Posted By NealXu
so the issue is whether the supply can deliver the current required for enough time to blow the fuse.
Exactly. But it's also the double failure scenario, which must be very rare, but it has apparently happened - hence the official party line not to use power conditioners.


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Edited by VirusKiller; 2018-01-29 17:22.
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#272430 - 2018-01-29 19:54 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Ogri]
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I agree it would be good to know how AC line conditioners can improve a system's performance, not just for curiosity's sake, but because it would make it easier to purchase one based on what it can and cannot do. But I think it's more important to listen and determine whether a conditioner makes a positive difference (while posing no threat of harm), because that's ultimately what matters. For me, I've found conditioners can positively influence a system's performance (I don't think I'm alone in that regard), and in particular, I've found Shunyata's Triton V3 to be the best one I've heard so far. The proof is in the pudding, as they say -- but as with anything else, I also know YMMV.

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#272431 - 2018-01-29 20:30 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Ogri]
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Originally Posted By Ogri
The how was missing. These leaps from cause to effect are unconvincing without explanation but a showman can make them appear compelling.
I'm half-way through that presentation and had come to exactly the same conclusion. I will watch the rest of it though.


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#272435 - 2018-01-29 21:57 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Cleop]
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Originally Posted By Cleop
But I think it's more important to listen and determine whether a conditioner makes a positive difference (while posing no threat of harm), because that's ultimately what matters
Can’t disagree with that. For me, trying to decide whether it’s “different” or better is made easier with a dash of science.

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#272439 - 2018-01-30 02:12 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Ogri]
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I do agree often times different is not better. That's how I felt about pretty much every AC conditioner before the latest generation of Shunyata products (including the earlier ones from Shunyata). Which suggests there are a lot of people in the audio world who think they know what's important about this subject when in fact they don't.

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#272440 - 2018-01-30 05:26 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Cleop]
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So it’s different. Does it sound better to you? Will it sound different and better to me? If it doesn’t, it proves I don’t know what’s important👍 Got it. If it sounds better to you that is all that matters. Happy listening.


James
NC1: 861v4+ID40, 218, MS200 (to outdoors), DSP8000SE (upgraded). 5500VC, 5500s, Hsu Research ULS15x2, DirecTV, Oppo BD103, QNAP251, Roon
NC2-see FL 2 with Triad Silver Speakers

FL1: G61R, 218, DSP8000SEs, 5500HC, DSP6000s, MS600, DirecTv, Oppo BD103, QNAP469, Roon
FL2: Marantz 7005, M60s, M60C, M33s, Oppo BDP-93, MS200, Roon
Edited by Mtns; 2018-01-30 05:29.
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#272441 - 2018-01-30 05:45 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Mtns]
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If something doesn't sound better to you, that only means it's not for you, nothing more. If something sounds better to me, that only means I like it, nothing more. There are no absolute rights or wrongs when it comes to people's preferences, and if it seemed like I meant otherwise, I apologize.

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#272443 - 2018-01-30 06:01 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Mtns]
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BTW, when I said there are people "in the audio world" who apparently don't know as much about AC conditioning as they think, I meant the people who manufacture and sell line conditioners that change the sound of a system without necessarily making it better. I did not mean people who frequent this forum who do not believe line conditioners are worthwhile.

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#272444 - 2018-01-30 06:59 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Cleop]
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Cleop, you points are clear. I have tried different power cables and declined to buy. They were different but not better.

I shared my experience with the same power products that you mention. I spent nearly 6 months testing.

I value other’s opinions but I think it is a bit to easy if we say that it is all just “differences” as if there is zero chance that we could ever find consensus on what was “better”.

I would be very surprised that if anyone here identified a better sound-stage and placement, better separation around the finer details on the music etc. and concluded that it was “just different”.

If we were deciding on the colour of paint for the wall I would absolutely say they are all different and all are just a matter of taste and opinion.

A 206, 506, 598, 808, all sound different but there is general consensus of which is better.

If we are focusing in on specific aspects of system performance then it must be reasonable to qualify that performance. E.g. the bass is better defined in scenario X vs Y, the treble has better decay, etc.

You can of course still have a preference but not all results are born equal.

Different and better (or worse) can co-exist.

Also, it does often seem that the views can be extreme on either side of the debate i.e.:

- I agree with the science therefore the difference ‘must be better’ (when it might not or I spent the money so it has to be better or I am stupid).

- I disagree, the science is BS, therefore it is just difference and cannot be “better”. Anyone than thinks so is deluded (even though I have never even heard the equipment in question and never will on principal. It is all snakeoil).

This often why debates collapse.


Rgds,
Nick

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#272473 - 2018-01-30 19:18 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: ncpl]
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Hello Nick,

I just wanted to share my experiences with Power. I wish I could afford your speakers and I suspect that they are not as vulnerable to AC problems as mine are but I have found that the quality of AC Power supplied to my entire kit makes a significant positive impact to the quality of the sound.

My home is supplied by a dedicated transformer from the power company and the quality of the power in my breaker box is good but tweaking that power was the best thing I ever did to improve my sound quality. It is not that it is different, it better. In my opinion much of it has a lot to do with the noise transferred into the kit through the power cables which becomes audible even in my system (which is not nearly as revealing as yours). I am a firm believer that power quality improvements can benefit any high end system.

David


861v4 w LPS, G98DH, 218 for endpoint and MQA
Mac Mini w Uptone JS-2 LPS for Roon Server, 2x 7200SE, 2x JBL4312 Subs
2x 20amp dedicated AC power lines. Shunyata Python Helix cable to Shunyata Hydra 6, Synergistic Blk fuses. Ice Age AC Cables Optically Isolated Ethernet
Audeze LCD-2, iFI-iDSD Micro HPhone amp
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#272474 - 2018-01-30 19:46 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: David Jackson]
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Hi David,
Thanks for sharing. That is very much in line with my views above.


Rgds,
Nick

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#272479 - 2018-01-30 21:36 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: ncpl]
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Just my 2 cents, I believe in building on a solid foundation.


861v4 w LPS, G98DH, 218 for endpoint and MQA
Mac Mini w Uptone JS-2 LPS for Roon Server, 2x 7200SE, 2x JBL4312 Subs
2x 20amp dedicated AC power lines. Shunyata Python Helix cable to Shunyata Hydra 6, Synergistic Blk fuses. Ice Age AC Cables Optically Isolated Ethernet
Audeze LCD-2, iFI-iDSD Micro HPhone amp
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#272481 - 2018-01-30 22:05 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: David Jackson]
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Agreed. Curious about tweaking the power in the breaker box though? Again there’s the thing about noise in the cables becoming audible. No doubt there’s something to it but it would be nice to know how the science works there. Most of this becomes DC right?

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#272484 - 2018-01-30 23:39 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Ogri]
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Dedicated lines is where I started and it made a positive difference. Everything I addressed beyond that just cumulatively made things better, one step at a time. I understand the process not the science but there is no doubt to my ears that it works.


861v4 w LPS, G98DH, 218 for endpoint and MQA
Mac Mini w Uptone JS-2 LPS for Roon Server, 2x 7200SE, 2x JBL4312 Subs
2x 20amp dedicated AC power lines. Shunyata Python Helix cable to Shunyata Hydra 6, Synergistic Blk fuses. Ice Age AC Cables Optically Isolated Ethernet
Audeze LCD-2, iFI-iDSD Micro HPhone amp
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#272502 - 2018-01-31 16:56 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: David Jackson]
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Loc: London, UK
We had a new power substation put in recently, I got slightly excited about what it might do for my setup. Difficult to manage an AB on that one wink. Didn’t have a noticeable impact. My house was wired by people who faked the circuit test results though, even managed to cock up the phone line, so I’m guessing I’ve bigger problems...

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#272503 - 2018-01-31 17:39 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Ogri]
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David Jackson Offline
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OGRI,
I found the PS Audio Regenerator to be a very solid player in the quest for noise reduction. It will "clean", monitor and report the condition of your AC. The Regenerators are NOT passive devices like Shunyatas. But I have found that they do NOT color the sound when they are installed.
There is a significant explanation of the science of noise reduction on the PS Audio WebSite. Its worth a read if you are curious. You can also read reports and ask questions on their AC forum. It is a great place for knowledge and although I have not seen PS Audio discussed much on this site, they manufacture great products. I find their upgradable DACs absolutely stunning sounding and their recent upgrade supports MQA.


861v4 w LPS, G98DH, 218 for endpoint and MQA
Mac Mini w Uptone JS-2 LPS for Roon Server, 2x 7200SE, 2x JBL4312 Subs
2x 20amp dedicated AC power lines. Shunyata Python Helix cable to Shunyata Hydra 6, Synergistic Blk fuses. Ice Age AC Cables Optically Isolated Ethernet
Audeze LCD-2, iFI-iDSD Micro HPhone amp
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#272505 - 2018-01-31 18:05 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: David Jackson]
Registered: 2010-08-08
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Jeje Offline
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I think one should always clarify - when discussing power supplies - if they have a purely DSP setup or some analogue components.


Jerome
Music: MC200 -> MS600 -> G68D -> DSP8.2k + DSP5200HC front / DSP33 Rears
Movies: NAS -> Oppo BDP-93 -> HD621 -> G68D -> DSP8.2k + DSP5200HC front / DSP33 Rears
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#272506 - 2018-01-31 18:42 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Jeje]
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David Jackson Offline
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I am not quite sure what you are saying Jeje.


861v4 w LPS, G98DH, 218 for endpoint and MQA
Mac Mini w Uptone JS-2 LPS for Roon Server, 2x 7200SE, 2x JBL4312 Subs
2x 20amp dedicated AC power lines. Shunyata Python Helix cable to Shunyata Hydra 6, Synergistic Blk fuses. Ice Age AC Cables Optically Isolated Ethernet
Audeze LCD-2, iFI-iDSD Micro HPhone amp
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#272507 - 2018-01-31 18:50 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: David Jackson]
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Jeje Offline
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Fair enough smile all I was trying to say is: when someone reports audible improvement using a power conditioner, do they have DSP speakers or analogue?


Jerome
Music: MC200 -> MS600 -> G68D -> DSP8.2k + DSP5200HC front / DSP33 Rears
Movies: NAS -> Oppo BDP-93 -> HD621 -> G68D -> DSP8.2k + DSP5200HC front / DSP33 Rears
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#272508 - 2018-01-31 19:05 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Jeje]
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David Jackson Offline
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I understand, I have used Regenerators and Shunyata products on DSP and Analog setups with very positive results (my signature describes my 2 channel system). I do not have experience with tube systems.


861v4 w LPS, G98DH, 218 for endpoint and MQA
Mac Mini w Uptone JS-2 LPS for Roon Server, 2x 7200SE, 2x JBL4312 Subs
2x 20amp dedicated AC power lines. Shunyata Python Helix cable to Shunyata Hydra 6, Synergistic Blk fuses. Ice Age AC Cables Optically Isolated Ethernet
Audeze LCD-2, iFI-iDSD Micro HPhone amp
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#272522 - 2018-02-01 01:34 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: David Jackson]
Registered: 2009-11-10
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CMB Integrations - Bruce Online content
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I will have the Shunyata products on demo at my place for the next 30 days or so if anyone would like to come by and see/ hear for themselves on my 8kSEs.


www.cmbintegrations.com

Personal System #1 Theta Digital Cassablanca 4, 218, DSP8000.2SE, DSP7200SEHC, Revel F228be, Revel B112, Monitor Audio Silver 10, ATI 200WX5 Amp, JVC RS15, Shunyata Denali 600S, Black Diamond Zero Edge screen. QNAP TS-251 3TB
Mark Levinson No515 Turntable

Crestron control and multi room audio via Meridian 258 amplifiers.
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#272524 - 2018-02-01 05:18 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
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JohnSWimer Offline
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Bruce,

Perhaps you could share your opinion and include a poll of all those who come to give it a listen. I’d love to, but I am moving and must disassemble all of my kit and reassemble in the new rental house.

John


1: 808.5 Anniversary, 504, Oppo BDP-103, Apple TV, HD621, 861v8, 7200SEU l/r/c, 33 sides, 5200 rear, Sim2 Lumis & Schneider lens, Stewart Filmsreen, SR20 fuses where they count
2: Theta Compli Blu, Apple TV, HDMax421, G68ADV, G55, B&W Sig 8NT l/r/c, 8180 rear & Runco Plasma
3: G91A, 3100, Sony PS-FL5 turntable
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#272525 - 2018-02-01 06:55 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: JohnSWimer]
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Ogri Offline
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Perhaps Bruce could tell us about the science?

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#272526 - 2018-02-01 08:01 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Jeje]
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ncpl Offline
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I understand your question JeJe but I don’t think it is as relevant as you might imagine.
DSP speakers are stuffed full of a lot of analogue parts. So, if you wondered how power treatment might impact an analogue pre-amp or power-amp of a traditional setup then it is also applicable to DSP’s.

Ogri- do you genuinely want to know or are you just baiting with more sarcasm ?


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#272529 - 2018-02-01 09:23 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: ncpl]
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Ogri Offline
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I’m really interested in the science. Current areas of interest in Hi-Fi I’m following revolve around clean DC power (hence AC could have an impact but it’s the transfer I’m curious about and following on, whether improvements on the DC side are possible) and clocking (power supply a possible factor here).

We had a new substation in here, I was very hopeful, I didn’t make this up. The wink was for humour. Some people’s humour is another’s sarcasm, can’t help that.

I’m pretty neutral, having bought and tried products and then moved them on. There’s something in it, I want to know if there’s another approach, even if that means soldering. So knowing what’s happening is my curiosity.

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#273690 - 2018-02-23 23:19 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
Registered: 2009-11-10
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CMB Integrations - Bruce Online content
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After alot of discussion and vetting, the Shunyata demo gear has shipped. I will have it by mid next week to start running demos. It will be set up with DSP and a analog system with a Mark Levinson 515 turntable.


www.cmbintegrations.com

Personal System #1 Theta Digital Cassablanca 4, 218, DSP8000.2SE, DSP7200SEHC, Revel F228be, Revel B112, Monitor Audio Silver 10, ATI 200WX5 Amp, JVC RS15, Shunyata Denali 600S, Black Diamond Zero Edge screen. QNAP TS-251 3TB
Mark Levinson No515 Turntable

Crestron control and multi room audio via Meridian 258 amplifiers.
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#273915 - 2018-03-02 16:32 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
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As promised, I am evaluating the Shunyata product line and how it relates to DSP speakers. Let me preface by saying that I have always been somewhat of a skeptic when it comes to high end cables.

The first test that I have done was to use Shunyata's Alpha NR cables to connect my DSP8000SE speakers to their respective wall sockets that are on the same 15 amp circuit. The comparison was carried out using first the stock power cables and then using the Alpha NR.

What I found was that when using the Alpha's, the presentation seemed to loose a mid bass bloat that was previously perceived as great punch. Removing this allowed a better presentation and detail of individual instruments similar to engaging and disengaging EBA. The bass seems to take a back seat with the Alpha's but was always preferable with a more visceral punch instead of it overpowering everything else. I found myself checking with a sound level meter to see if it wasn't somehow less loud but it wasn't.

The Alpha NR cable is also very flexible and surprisingly lightweight when compared to my Tributaries 8 series power cables which have a pressurized fire hose sort of feel to them.

More to come when I test the Denali with the DSP8000SE.


www.cmbintegrations.com

Personal System #1 Theta Digital Cassablanca 4, 218, DSP8000.2SE, DSP7200SEHC, Revel F228be, Revel B112, Monitor Audio Silver 10, ATI 200WX5 Amp, JVC RS15, Shunyata Denali 600S, Black Diamond Zero Edge screen. QNAP TS-251 3TB
Mark Levinson No515 Turntable

Crestron control and multi room audio via Meridian 258 amplifiers.
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#273921 - 2018-03-02 22:41 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
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Jdb-si Offline
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Thanks for that review Bruce. I have been skeptical when it comes to power cables since house wiring is generally bulk cable and it is a relatively short run from the wall to the speaker.

It's hard to understand how such a short run with a high performance power cable makes a difference when the cable from the panel throughout the house to the receptacle is cheap bulk cable. I would expect the bulk cable throughout the walls from the panel to be the limiting factor.

John


Theater: G68, G98DH, DSP6k, DSP55kC, SW1600x2, DSP55k, Plasma, (Zone 2)
Living room: DSP5k, DSP52kC, SW1600, G68, Sooloos MC600 (Zone 1)
Bedroom: M80
office: SACD, 861v4, DSP6k (Zone 3)
Storage: P350Ws, G55s, M33s, DSP33s, DSP5k, 501, 518, 561
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#273922 - 2018-03-02 23:29 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
Registered: 2009-11-10
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Adding the Denali was like adding another helping of awesome. More bass extension more detail. The grain and harshness of some voices are gone. The attack and sustain of instruments is much better. There are more layers to complex music.

It is a repeatable and demonstrable difference. I would encourange anyone to come and hear the difference. I am certainly impressed. The power cables contain some filtering along with some other technologies. Whatever it is, it works.


www.cmbintegrations.com

Personal System #1 Theta Digital Cassablanca 4, 218, DSP8000.2SE, DSP7200SEHC, Revel F228be, Revel B112, Monitor Audio Silver 10, ATI 200WX5 Amp, JVC RS15, Shunyata Denali 600S, Black Diamond Zero Edge screen. QNAP TS-251 3TB
Mark Levinson No515 Turntable

Crestron control and multi room audio via Meridian 258 amplifiers.
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#273957 - 2018-03-04 18:40 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
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David Jackson Offline
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So Bruce, Can you share with us which Denali product(s) you used for the DSP8000's?


861v4 w LPS, G98DH, 218 for endpoint and MQA
Mac Mini w Uptone JS-2 LPS for Roon Server, 2x 7200SE, 2x JBL4312 Subs
2x 20amp dedicated AC power lines. Shunyata Python Helix cable to Shunyata Hydra 6, Synergistic Blk fuses. Ice Age AC Cables Optically Isolated Ethernet
Audeze LCD-2, iFI-iDSD Micro HPhone amp
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#273958 - 2018-03-04 19:53 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: David Jackson]
Registered: 2009-11-10
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CMB Integrations - Bruce Online content
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Denali 6000S
Aplha NR power cables
Alpha EF power cable


www.cmbintegrations.com

Personal System #1 Theta Digital Cassablanca 4, 218, DSP8000.2SE, DSP7200SEHC, Revel F228be, Revel B112, Monitor Audio Silver 10, ATI 200WX5 Amp, JVC RS15, Shunyata Denali 600S, Black Diamond Zero Edge screen. QNAP TS-251 3TB
Mark Levinson No515 Turntable

Crestron control and multi room audio via Meridian 258 amplifiers.
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#273974 - 2018-03-05 20:03 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
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ncpl Offline
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Bruce,

it's interesting to read your views here. Not sure if you read mine from a few months ago but you describe pretty much what I said. I use 2000T on each 8k with Alpha NR/EF combo.

The effect is repeatable and clear to hear.


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#274028 - 2018-03-07 13:22 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: ncpl]
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CMB Integrations - Bruce Online content
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Agreed and I was astounded. I would have never imagined the power products would make such a positive difference.


www.cmbintegrations.com

Personal System #1 Theta Digital Cassablanca 4, 218, DSP8000.2SE, DSP7200SEHC, Revel F228be, Revel B112, Monitor Audio Silver 10, ATI 200WX5 Amp, JVC RS15, Shunyata Denali 600S, Black Diamond Zero Edge screen. QNAP TS-251 3TB
Mark Levinson No515 Turntable

Crestron control and multi room audio via Meridian 258 amplifiers.
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#274039 - 2018-03-07 20:52 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
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Ogri Offline
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and wouldn’t it be great to understand why.

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#274040 - 2018-03-07 21:41 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Ogri]
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JimK Offline
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Ogri,

You could check Shunyata's website. Not just marketing hype; they've done some useful research that points to the "whys" of power conditioning.

But, I haven't tried their products; my 8000s/818 are fed straight from the wall.


Roon, 818v3, Swallow Acoustics ALS2 active analog speakers, Technics SL10 turntable, and a modded Oppo 83.
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#274041 - 2018-03-07 22:14 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: JimK]
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Ogri Offline
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I watched the video last time, no explanation. First thing I read on the website is instantaneous current delivery ensures maximum performance and electrical reliability, doesn’t say why that’s important. Next noise reduction, it allows components to operate in a noise free environment. Can noise be otherwise defeated, downstream aren’t designers minimising that anyway? What exactly might noise do. Too many presumptions too little explanation. Ferrites anyone?

Definitely something in it but something Meridian missed in their 50k speakers, must be kicking themselves.

I’ve been reading about Low Drop-out voltage regulators, they reduce noise, ripple in a very measurable audible way, trouble is they are $18 each. Not exactly drop in though.

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#274060 - 2018-03-08 12:18 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
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Hector Offline
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Originally Posted By CMB Integrations - Bruce
Agreed and I was astounded. I would have never imagined the power products would make such a positive difference.
Hi Bruce,

Are you in a position to repeat your Power Conditioning experiments with 8000SE by applying same to 7200SE and 5200SE models, or for any reason would you not expect this to be applicable?

Thanks in advance of your considered reply.
Hector


AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1LR, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD.
DINING: MS600, AC200, DSP5200SLLR.
STUDY 504, SB Touch, 2x MD600, C15, 808.6, 5200SE, Mac & PC, Explorer v1, Prime+PS Grado GS1000i
HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys
A capella to Zydeco
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#274063 - 2018-03-08 13:06 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Hector]
Registered: 2009-11-10
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CMB Integrations - Bruce Online content
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Not at this time, however I could do it with some 5500's and 5200's


www.cmbintegrations.com

Personal System #1 Theta Digital Cassablanca 4, 218, DSP8000.2SE, DSP7200SEHC, Revel F228be, Revel B112, Monitor Audio Silver 10, ATI 200WX5 Amp, JVC RS15, Shunyata Denali 600S, Black Diamond Zero Edge screen. QNAP TS-251 3TB
Mark Levinson No515 Turntable

Crestron control and multi room audio via Meridian 258 amplifiers.
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#274711 - 2018-04-02 06:01 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Cleop]
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Rick415 Offline
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Cleop, which PS Audio gear did you try? Was it a Power Plant or just a Dectet? How did it work out?

Thanks,

Rick


G68ADV, DSP3100, Rythmik F12 sub, RPi2 with Sbooster LPS, Allo SPDIF board and Roon
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#274712 - 2018-04-02 11:21 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
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I did end up trying the Shunyata Denali 6000S with the DSP5500 and DSP5200 legacy speakers and observed results similar to those with the 8kSE. I would even say that it even tamed some of the notorious bass from the 5500's. If you are considering buying new speakers or amplifiers, I would encourage you to consider a in home demo of the Shunyata products first. It might just be the sound you seek.


www.cmbintegrations.com

Personal System #1 Theta Digital Cassablanca 4, 218, DSP8000.2SE, DSP7200SEHC, Revel F228be, Revel B112, Monitor Audio Silver 10, ATI 200WX5 Amp, JVC RS15, Shunyata Denali 600S, Black Diamond Zero Edge screen. QNAP TS-251 3TB
Mark Levinson No515 Turntable

Crestron control and multi room audio via Meridian 258 amplifiers.
Edited by CMB Integrations - Bruce; 2018-04-02 15:04.
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#274715 - 2018-04-02 15:01 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
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Hector Offline
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Thank you Bruce.
Good advice, especially to anyone considering 5500's. I have never considered these for serious 2 channel listening as the bass IMHO is not controlled and these are IMHO only really suitable for cinema 5.1 and above. If Shunyata products change the characteristic of 5500's I would be very pleased to hear the results.
As for 5200SL speakers would you expect a similar result or would EBA etc reduce any possible improvement from addition of Shunyata Denali kit?
Conversely would 5200 SL upgraded to 5200 SE be a better option?
Hector


AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1LR, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD.
DINING: MS600, AC200, DSP5200SLLR.
STUDY 504, SB Touch, 2x MD600, C15, 808.6, 5200SE, Mac & PC, Explorer v1, Prime+PS Grado GS1000i
HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys
A capella to Zydeco
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#274717 - 2018-04-02 15:09 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Hector]
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With the 5500 the bass bloat was reduced but better defined. 5200SL or SE would have similar positive results as the 8kSE as all have EBA. I find that I don't have to listen as loud as I used to in order to pick up on small details.


www.cmbintegrations.com

Personal System #1 Theta Digital Cassablanca 4, 218, DSP8000.2SE, DSP7200SEHC, Revel F228be, Revel B112, Monitor Audio Silver 10, ATI 200WX5 Amp, JVC RS15, Shunyata Denali 600S, Black Diamond Zero Edge screen. QNAP TS-251 3TB
Mark Levinson No515 Turntable

Crestron control and multi room audio via Meridian 258 amplifiers.
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#274718 - 2018-04-02 15:29 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
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Hector Offline
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Thanks for the quick response Bruce.
I think if funds are available I will upgrade 5200SL to SE as this is a known entity to me.
Not brave enough to step into the "not understood by me" technology area.
Hector


AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1LR, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD.
DINING: MS600, AC200, DSP5200SLLR.
STUDY 504, SB Touch, 2x MD600, C15, 808.6, 5200SE, Mac & PC, Explorer v1, Prime+PS Grado GS1000i
HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys
A capella to Zydeco
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#274720 - 2018-04-02 18:41 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: Rick415]
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Cleop Offline
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It was an earlier Power Plant, not one of the latest models (which I understand are significantly better). I felt the PP reduced dynamics and added a subtle sheen to the music, even when only front-end components were plugged into it. A Sound Applications Reference Line Stage I had on hand was more natural-sounding, although it too constricted dynamics when the DSP8000's were plugged into it.

The only line conditioners I've found that do not seem to restrict dynamics are the latest Shunyata products, the Triton v3 being noticeably cleaner than the Denali's. I believe Shunyata is releasing their new Typhon QR this week, which is designed to be paired with a Triton to form Shunyata's best line conditioning system. The prior version of the Typhon worked in parallel with the Triton (i.e., it was designed to be plugged into one of the Triton's AC outlets), but the new version apparently uses different technology and works in series with the Triton (i.e., the Triton is now plugged into it, and it is plugged into the wall). I have one on order and will report back after I've had a chance to evaluate it.

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#274754 - 2018-04-04 04:28 Re: Power Conditioning on DSP8000SEs [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
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Mtns Offline
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Agree Bruce. 65 is a very noticeable bit louder in both my setups.


James
NC1: 861v4+ID40, 218, MS200 (to outdoors), DSP8000SE (upgraded). 5500VC, 5500s, Hsu Research ULS15x2, DirecTV, Oppo BD103, QNAP251, Roon
NC2-see FL 2 with Triad Silver Speakers

FL1: G61R, 218, DSP8000SEs, 5500HC, DSP6000s, MS600, DirecTv, Oppo BD103, QNAP469, Roon
FL2: Marantz 7005, M60s, M60C, M33s, Oppo BDP-93, MS200, Roon
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