Google Search  |  Meridian Systems  |  Meridian Streaming  |  Restaurant  |  WiKi  |  Duncan's Meridian Info  |  Board Rules  |  Restaurant Rules
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#255364 - 2016-11-22 23:11 SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
Upgrading from G68ADV to G61R-SL with 5 Legacy DSP Speakers.

I'm a little overwhelmed. I have read a bunch, but I'm a bit confused.

AC11 appears to be made for new SL speakers and old legacy preamps.

AC12 seems like the right thing but you would need 3 AC12's for a 5.0 System.

There are no examples in the AC12 manual of All Legacy with AC12's. Only Mixed or Only 2 Channels of Legacy.

I was thinking 1 AC12 on the Main Left - Right for the SPDIF and Master COMM. The Master COMM out of the AC12 would replace the Master COMM out of my legacy G68ADV. And I'd run the rest of the COMMs the same way I do now (all daisy chained COMMs). I'll continue the "chain" from the COMM Output of the Slave of the pair hooked to the AC12.

Then I'll custom make (or order) SpeakerLink to SPDIF Coax adapter for the Center and Rears.

I'm confused if I need to loop back a Slave COMM to AC12. It looks like I do. Any "loop" that has a Master Speaker on it needs a slave feedback according to manual (first Multichannel Example with a Master on the Legacy). That's a pain. And doesn't make sense because it's all parallel (same as what went out to the first speaker!).

I know about Reviver, but that seems designed for running all SpeakerLink (AES) cable. I prefer leave all SPDIF and COMM cables in place and to all the adapting at the Preamp.

Also if I do need to loop back COMMs. Can I just loop back the Front Pair to AC12, that includes the Master. And Start another COMM Chain from the Preamp DIN COMM Out. I think I do that now, I can't recall for sure. I don't use a 511 Patch and I did a little cheat to simplify cabling.


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Top
#255365 - 2016-11-22 23:26 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
Loc: Austria, Europe
Hello George,

you can do that with all revivers and your own adapters(if you prefer) and if you like keep the old wiring.
Write me a PM with your private/official email with your detailed wiring.
In that way we can send pictures/drawings.

Robert


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
Reviver
Top
#255367 - 2016-11-23 01:43 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
PM said you're over limit. Popular guy.

I just double checked.

My Setup is fairly standard, except I don't use an official 511.
The COMMs are just one big loop.

Front Left is Master has Master COMM in from the preamp which is next to the Preamp (Uses Standard Twin Master Cable).
Standard Twin Slave from Front Left to Front Right
Front Right COMM Out goes to Center COMM In (Single COMM lead).
Center Out feeds the Slave Rears. To do that I use the COMM half of Twin Lead for Center BACKWARDS to get the Output COMM from Center Back to the Preamp to feed the Rears. I made a custom "2-Port" 511 (two Female Slave DIN's in Parallel) that hooks the Center Channel Output COMM to the Rear Slave Cable. At the Preamp.


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Edited by Carl; 2016-11-23 09:59. Edit Reason: Redundant quotation removed.
Top
#255382 - 2016-11-23 18:57 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
Originally Posted By Fiddler
I'm confused if I need to loop back a Slave COMM to AC12. It looks like I do. Any "loop" that has a Master Speaker on it needs a slave feedback according to manual (first Multichannel Example with a Master on the Legacy). That's a pain. And doesn't make sense because it's all parallel (same as what went out to the first speaker!).
I think I figured out why the Slave Loopback is needed in some cases.

If a "COMM loop" has a Master in it, it needs to feedback the COMM out of last Speaker (almost always a slave) in that Chain so that it can feed the rest of the slaved speakers in the system. Assuming there are more speakers.

The way I look at it is. The "Master" Row of Speaker Links is like having 4 Master DIN Outputs on the Preamp. And the 4 Slave Speaker Links is like a 511 Patch Panel built in. And I suspect the Feedback Slave Pin on the Master Row is tied to the Slave Rows as well.

When using SpeakerLink with SL Speakers connected to the Master Row, the Slave Feedback Loop is all built in (it automatically drives the 511 Patch Panel in the Slave Row). When using an AC12 (with a Legacy Master) you have to effectively make that SpeakerLink connection look like it has the same built in loop as well. Again assuming you have more slave speakers to feed off the Speaker Links (another AC12 (slave) or SpeakerLink (slave)).

So rather than feedback my last speaker in the AC12 "Master Loop" I'll just directly feed my Slave Rears (as I do now). Effectively I'll just have more Slave COMMs in that initial Master Loop. Just as I do now.

If you only have one pair of speakers there is no need to feed back the slave to the AC12. If they are only Slaves on a loop there is no need to feedback.


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Top
#255390 - 2016-11-23 21:10 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
Loc: Austria, Europe

I deleted some PM, so it should work now.

Sorry i dont can catch your description as my english is to bad,
its over my head.
Basically the signal flow of the comms run in that way:

a)Processor send the >>> "master command" to the master DSP at com-in
b) The master DSP generate the "slave..command" (at his com-out) and THAT signal have to be distributed.To make that you have either
- daisy chain that signal(from the master com out) or
- distribute with a 511

Both solution are not different,botha parallel, its jsut "looks" as daisy chained.
The reason is the internal wiring of the S-lead and the wiring inside the DSP.

There are two standard solution to support your 5 DSP layout

1)STAR wiring
See here pages 6 and 7

So every DSP have his own reviver and his own SL/Cat cable from the G61-SL processor. So you need 5 revivers.

2)PAIR wiring
See pages 8,9 and 10

In that case, every logical PAIR of DSP have one reviver like FL and FR,
like C and sub, like RR and LR.
In your case with 5 DSP used in three PAIRS you need 3 reviver.

Its much easier just look at the drawings as reading the text here

STAR wiring is a very clean and best sounding solution. five DSP,five reviver and five cables-thats it-NOTHING else.

PAIR wiring is a mixture between SL/Cat cable and Slave(S5) cables.
The FIRST DSP in every logical PAIR get a SL/CAt cable, the second DSP in that PAIR a slave(S5) cable.

With STAR wiring NO change in wiring is needed in the future when you go for SL-DSP(just remove the legacy DSP and the reviver).

With PAIR layout you have to replace the S5 leads with L/Cat cables-thats it and remove the legacy DSP and revivers.

My experience is that when you use the M-flat black SL cables instead of S5 leads, the sound is slightly better(more natural).

George, if you want and like, remove all the old wiring and the 511 patch box and make a clean future proof and (slightly) better sound solution.
Just connect and have fun..

As many time stated, you can do or buy other solutions, but keep in mind that the "adapter" is more then a cable when you do it correct.
And with a AC12 or reviver solution you have also access over the serial plug to each DSP to "beside" the correct impedance match for the processor and the speaker what have a major influence on the sound.

It maybe sound a commercial, but i had the same situation with my old legacy and the new SL 861 in the past, that was the reason to develop the reviver to avoid multiple cables and to have a better and cheaper solution as with AC12´s.


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
Reviver
Top
#255392 - 2016-11-23 22:03 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
Robert,

This started out to be a way to cut some power usage (which has gone real well). I've probably cut my total bill by 33% by removing excessive 200 watts of standby through out the house. Through Switches, Timers and upgrades.

I understand the attractiveness of a Star and all SpeakerLink. But I don't want to rewire everything right now.

I want minimal work and minimal number of boxes.

I already have a AC12 on the way. That will deal with most of it. All I need is 2 hand made SL to SPDIF Adapters to finish it.

You should update your web site showing application of SpeakerLink Preamp to Non SL Speakers.

Here is what MConfig thinks I have.

Normal MConfig

Here is what I did to simplify things a little.

Customized 511


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Top
#255419 - 2016-11-24 20:54 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
Loc: Austria, Europe
You have a PM


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
Reviver
Top
#255514 - 2016-11-28 02:16 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
My current understanding is I can still plug my speaker COMM's into the G61RSL preamp the same as I do now with G68-ADV.

Pros and Cons of different options.

3 AC12's

Pro's

Passive
Made by Meridian

Con's

Expensive
Little bulky if you don't need the COMM's portion.

3 HOSA CDL-313

Pro's

Inexpensive ($90 at street, $50 used)

Con's

Requires Power
Requires Custom Made SpeakerLink to Male XLR.

3 M-Audio CO3

Pro's

Jitter Reduction

Con's

Expensive if new
Requires Custom Made SpeakerLink to Male XLR
No longer available, hard to find

3 Revivers

Pro's

Passive?
Much Cheaper than AC12's

Con's

More expensive than HOSA CDL-313
More than needed if not using COMMs.

3 Custom Made Cable (Transformer and Resistor Network)

Pro's

Passive
Cheap
Cleanest

Con's

Lots of Labor
Risk of screwing up and blowing something out.
Risk of less optimal sound


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Edited by Fiddler; 2016-11-28 04:38.
Top
#255519 - 2016-11-28 11:08 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2007-09-23
Posts: 1,698
Syles Offline
Knows where his towel is
Syles Offline
Knows where his towel is

Registered: 2007-09-23
Posts: 1,698
Loc: London, UK
Go passive; the power requirement will bug you!

For the last option, you could just use the (correct value) resistors, no need for a transformer in circuit.

All the best,

Steve

Top
#255522 - 2016-11-28 14:05 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Syles]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
Thanks and yes I considered that. smile

I can plug them into a triggered switch that is already there for the Speakers. They are also only 50mA. But I like how clean just a passive cable is (resistors)

Like this How to make AES SPDIF cable with resistors.

Scroll down to digigal posts.


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Top
#255537 - 2016-11-28 22:12 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,958
Carl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Carl Offline


President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,958
Loc: Central England, UK
Hi George,

This topic may help you SpeakerLink used as Digital Out (XLR or SPDIF) and RS232.

Regards,
Carl


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200.2, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
[In Reserve] C15, MD600 (2*3TB), TwinStore RM (2*2TB)
Top
#255542 - 2016-11-28 22:35 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Syles]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
I know I could just use resistors like the digigal cable above and I might do just that.

But Rane's comments on including the transformer protects against shorts raised an eyebrow. I assume Meridian uses a Transformer in the AC12 and Robert does in the Reviver.

SPDIF inputs on DSP-Speakers have been known to blow, but I never have and like to keep it that way. I have been known to accidently connect two OUT's.

For passive pseudo DIY I was thinking of this.

Make the RJ-45 to XLR

Use this for Impedance Match

Neutrik naditbnc-f

Use this for attenuation

Mini Circuits 75 Ohm 15db Attenuater

Plus a BNC to RCA Adapter


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Edited by Fiddler; 2016-11-28 22:38.
Top
#255543 - 2016-11-28 22:52 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
Loc: Austria, Europe
There is no need to use attenuator, that's is counterproductive.


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
Reviver
Top
#255544 - 2016-11-28 23:56 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
Originally Posted By RobertW
There is no need to use attenuator, that's is counterproductive.


Please explain or correct me if I'm wrong.

Neutrik Adapter will output BNC 3.3v (Unbalanced AES) instead of RCA 0.5v (SPDIF).

I'm going by this Technical Note that is often referenced.

Rane's Technical Note on converting from AES to SPDIF

As mentioned in the Article some SPDIF receivers can handle the voltage. Some of my Meridian speakers are pretty old.



- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Edited by Fiddler; 2016-11-29 21:49.
Top
#255548 - 2016-11-29 08:01 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
Loc: Austria, Europe
Thanks George, I know all that since a long time.
The Meridian DSP can handle up to 5Vss at their digital inputs, that is my experience with 5k, 5kC, 5.5k, 5.5Mk2, 8k.1. refer to practical experiences and to their schematics. All have very similar circuits, so no problem here.

When you still want an attentuator, then you have select a different type, see here for an online tool to calculate the dampening.

Assuming the Neutrik can deliver 1 Vss and using the -15dB attentuator you get then 0,177 Vss. That is very low, even below the 0,2 Vss spec for the SPDIF signal.


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
Reviver
Top
#255549 - 2016-11-29 08:06 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,816
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,816
Loc: Surrey, England, UK
I originally started with M-Audio CO3, but didn't like power supply.

Then I used that Neutrik unit and a RJ45 to 3 pin XLR plus comms flying lead with DIN socket. Worked fine for audio, but, on MC200 with no BNC comms out, a bit messy for comms. I think Duncs modified a Neutrik unit to replace 3 pin XLR with RJ45 - and I guess ran separate comms, if required. No need for attenuator. IF SpeakerLink adheres to AES/EBU then operating voltage range quite wide, IF it does not and its just SPDIF packaged as balanced, then you don't want to attenuate it.

In the end, Syles (European broadcast engineer) made me a nice resister based conversion box, RJ45 socket on one side, DIN comms and phono audio leads out the other. Works a treat.

All worked equally well, just with different levels of ergonomic appeal.

But if I was starting fresh, I would go with one of Roberts Revivers. His support is excellent.


Meridian owner since 1992
Prime & PSU, Focal Elear headphones, roon (ROCK 8Gi5 Nuc), Explorer 1 & 2, F80. 200/203, MC200 and various Sonos.
Top
#255564 - 2016-11-29 17:49 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Ian]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
Thanks Ian, that's exactly the type of info I was looking for.

If Styles made a Resistor Network based circuit for you, I would have to assume he used the same circuit that's in the Rane Document which matches his diagrams he posted (Carl's link above). The diagram he posted does implicitly assume SpeakerLink is AES/EBU (4V P-P) input and SPDIF (0.5V P-P) output. The Resistor Based impedance match circuit has implicit attenuation built in and does impedance matching at the same time.

That says to me a Transformer with an additional 17dB attenuation resistor "T" circuit, also from the same Rane document, will produce the same conversion. With the benefits of a transformer, which certainly may be overkill.

As the Rane document and Styles has said, any of these solutions will probably work fine. Especially on short runs.

I suspect the AC12 uses a Transformer and Attenuation.


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Top
#255565 - 2016-11-29 18:01 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
I've just confirmed with an EE friend with photos of an AC12 that there is a transformer in their.


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Top
#255568 - 2016-11-29 19:27 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,816
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,816
Loc: Surrey, England, UK
Surprised noone has mentioned galvanic isolation whistle


Meridian owner since 1992
Prime & PSU, Focal Elear headphones, roon (ROCK 8Gi5 Nuc), Explorer 1 & 2, F80. 200/203, MC200 and various Sonos.
Top
#255569 - 2016-11-29 20:19 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Ian]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
You mean like Rane suggests as being ideal and AC12 has?

This is from the Rane document
Quote:
AES3 to AES3id or S/PDIF

IF (BIG if) you know that either the transmitter or the receiver is transformer coupled and the interconnect distance is short then a simple resistor divider will match the impedances and change the level as shown in Fig. 1. This is the AES3id recommended network for creating a 12-dB pad (4:1 voltage divider) and converting the AES3 110 ohm balanced output impedance into 75 ohms for driving the AES3id input. Therefore an average output level of 4 volts will be reduced to 1 volt. Since this exceeds the max allowed for SPDIF, use the values shown in parenthesis to create an 18-dB pad (8:1 voltage divider) producing 0.5 volt output for the same 4 volts input. (Other average AES3 output voltages require different resistors -- consult AES3id for value graph).

Transformers make the best passive impedance matchers, plus provide the benefits of ground isolation, high-frequency rejection, DC blocking and short-circuit protection. Impedance matching is easily handled by selection of the appropriate turns ratio (1.21:1 for 110-ohm to 75-ohm -- it's the square of the turns ratio for impedance) and careful attention to winding details allow wideband high-frequency transformers (you need ~12.5 MHz). The best and safest converter includes the transformer.

If you are not sure about the transformer isolation of the equipment interfacing, use a store-bought impedance matching transformer that comes complete with connectors and a separate resistor voltage divider network as shown in Fig. 2. This T-network is a 75-ohm:75-ohm bi-directional attenuator. The attenuation is a little less than that of Fig. 1 for the same (assumed) 4-volt AES3 input because the transformer reduces the voltage level by a factor of 1.21:1 (down to 3.3 volts) as well as matching the impedances.




- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Top
#255573 - 2016-11-29 21:57 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
Originally Posted By RobertW
Thanks George, I know all that since a long time.
The Meridian DSP can handle up to 5Vss at their digital inputs, that is my experience with 5k, 5kC, 5.5k, 5.5Mk2, 8k.1. refer to practical experiences and to their schematics. All have very similar circuits, so no problem here.

When you still want an attentuator, then you have select a different type, see here for an online tool to calculate the dampening.

Assuming the Neutrik can deliver 1 Vss and using the -15dB attentuator you get then 0,177 Vss. That is very low, even below the 0,2 Vss spec for the SPDIF signal.
I missed this post. Thanks for the info Robert.

The Neutrik will Deliver 3.3V P-P. It is ONLY a transformer. All 110 ohm to 75 ohm transformers will do the same. -15dB brings it down to about 0.6V P-P, which is still slightly above SPDIF Spec (of 0.5V).


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Top
#255608 - 2016-11-30 14:14 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
Loc: Austria, Europe
Hello George, you referred to an adapter with a BNC plug that delivers 1Vpp. That was my reference to the calculation.

NOT ALL transformers are the same, that is a big mistake.
Yes, they are the same as they make the impedance matching/adaptation, but the performance is a big difference.


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
Reviver
Top
#255609 - 2016-11-30 14:29 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
All transformers that make the same impedance change will make the same voltage change.

I had said earlier I was not sure if the Neutrik output was 1V or 3.3V because I was not sure if it had attenuation in it. If Neutrik output was 1V it should attenuate -6dB. If Neutrik output was 3.3V it should attenuate -17dB. I have since corrected that post since I confirmed the Neutrik has no attenuation and would output 3.3V.


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Edited by Fiddler; 2016-11-30 18:35.
Top
#255624 - 2016-11-30 17:46 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
Loc: Austria, Europe
Yes everything is smooth.


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
Reviver
Top
#255632 - 2016-11-30 18:36 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
Originally Posted By RobertW
Yes everything is smooth.
?


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Top
#255639 - 2016-11-30 21:33 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2005-10-22
Posts: 143
Curly Offline
Hitchhiker
Curly Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2005-10-22
Posts: 143
Loc: West Midlands, UK
George,

Going back to your original comms question I recently did a similar change going from a legacy G91 to G61R-SL with all legacy speakers.

I just bought 3 off SL/SPDIF convertors (1 for Front L/R, 1 for Centre/Sub and 1 for Rear L/R) and then plugged the comms into the legacy output on the G61R-SL. Didn't make any changes to cabling between speakers and it all just worked. I was originally looking at AC12 etc but it's not required.

Paul


Current Mismash of components :
1) TV System Living Room
2) Media Streaming Kitchen
3) Cinema System
4) Media Streaming Room 2
5) Other stuff in the post...
Top
#255645 - 2016-12-01 08:05 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Curly]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
Thanks Paul.

Which SL to SPDIF converters did you use?


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Top
#255698 - 2016-12-02 12:48 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2005-10-22
Posts: 143
Curly Offline
Hitchhiker
Curly Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2005-10-22
Posts: 143
Loc: West Midlands, UK
Hi,

I got them from Rick at Audio Images (along with the G61). Not sure of the make. Just used a short SL cable from the G61 to the converters. I'll look later and see if there is a make on them but think they were just a black box.

Paul


Current Mismash of components :
1) TV System Living Room
2) Media Streaming Kitchen
3) Cinema System
4) Media Streaming Room 2
5) Other stuff in the post...
Top
#255702 - 2016-12-02 14:35 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Curly]
Registered: 2006-01-14
Posts: 645
ISB Offline
Paranoid android
ISB Offline
Paranoid android

Registered: 2006-01-14
Posts: 645
Loc: Gregory, Michigan, USA
Those sound like the ones that Rick developed himself.


Cheers, Ian

1: G68ADV (croaked), G98DH (also croaked), HD621, MS200 + Syles SL-S/PDIF, MD600 (2*4TB), , QNAP 469L (4*3TB), Mac Mini, Carver A-705x, Martin Logan Aerius
2: 818v3, Aragon 8008x3, Aerial 10T's
Top
#255714 - 2016-12-02 20:55 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2005-10-22
Posts: 143
Curly Offline
Hitchhiker
Curly Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2005-10-22
Posts: 143
Loc: West Midlands, UK
Checked the converters and no name or description on them. They are about 1" square and about 2 inches long with SL connector one end and phono the other. As mentioned I think they are Audio Images own. I can send you a picture if you want.

Paul


Current Mismash of components :
1) TV System Living Room
2) Media Streaming Kitchen
3) Cinema System
4) Media Streaming Room 2
5) Other stuff in the post...
Top
#255715 - 2016-12-02 21:08 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Curly]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
That's fine, I was just curious what you used.



- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Top
#255716 - 2016-12-03 07:02 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Curly]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,675
Loc: Austria, Europe
Paul can you place a picture in the gallery ? Thanks


861v6+ID40/800v3/3x8k.2/3x5k5s smile /2x5kC/ 218/Explorer/TT-ELP/Trinnov Amethyst
__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
__WMA/Finalizer- , iPad air, Macbook-pro.
Reviver
Top
#255816 - 2016-12-07 20:51 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
Finally got my parts in.

I'm using this and will test tonight. I plan to check it with a scope.


Before adding Attenuation for SPDIF


After adding Attenuation for SPDIF (See Note below)


The above was correct for AES/EBU/XLR but wrong for Meridian SpeakerLink. I changed it to three 43 Ohm Resistors for -6dB attenuation and got 0.5V P-P output.


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Edited by Fiddler; 2016-12-08 06:11.
Top
#255826 - 2016-12-08 04:42 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
All measurements are on Unbalanced RCA with 75 Ohm Load.

Baseline Target DSP5000 Output (as expected 0.5V P-P)


Baseline Target G68-ADV Output (as expected 0.5V P-P)


G61SL SpeakerLink after Neutrik 110 to 75 Impedance Match
(I expected 3.3V P-P after impedance change but only 1.7V P-P was there, SpeakerLink is not standard AES/EBU/XLR Voltage of 4.0 it's only 2.0V)


G61SL SpeakerLink after Neutrik 110 to 75 Impedance Match with -16dB Attenuation
(I was assuming SpeakerLink was AES/EBU/XLR and it is not, so this was expected and too low 0.25V P-P)


G61SL SpeakerLink after Neutrik 110 to 75 Impedance Match with -6dB Attenuation
(I used the same attenuation used for AES to BNC, this was right on at 0.5V P-P [same as G68-ADV output above] with an impedance transformer)


For Grins I checked M-Audio CO3 AES/EBU/XLR Output still using Neutrik 110 to 75 Impedance Match.
It is true AES/EBU/XLR, supposed be 3.3 V (after impedance change) but measured a little short at 3.1 V. Note: CO3 will NOT pass 24/96 MHR.


For Grins I also checked HOSA CDL-313 AES/EBU/XLR Output still using Neutrik 110 to 75 Impedance Match.
It is also true AES/EBU/XLR, supposed to be 3.3 V (after impedance change) and it is dead nuts on 3.3 V. It WILL Pass 24/96 MHR.


Finished Passive SL to SPDIF


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Edited by Fiddler; 2016-12-08 10:29.
Top
#255828 - 2016-12-08 08:21 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,488
GMT Offline
Working on the ultimate question
GMT Offline
Working on the ultimate question

Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,488
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, UK
Looks good George - how long do you think it took you to make?

Cheers
Tom


Main: G61 SL, 218 HD621, 2* 7200SE, 5200HC, DSW,3200s,SBT, PS4, Amazon TV Fire, Dune Base 3.0, Xbox, NUC (Roon server & Kodi)
Kitchen: 5200s, SBT, Chromecast
Office: A330i, G41, Explorer2,Velodyne CT120
F80s, M60s
Top
#255831 - 2016-12-08 10:26 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: GMT]
Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Fiddler Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2000-05-28
Posts: 8,672
Loc: Northeastern, USA
Originally Posted By GMT
Looks good George - how long do you think it took you to make?


20 hrs for the 1st one
30 min each for the 2nd and 3rd one smile


- Fiddler (IMHO)

If you think listening to music is fun, try learning an instrument.
HT: G61RSL, 4x5K, 5.5KHC, 2xSC6000, Transporter, HD621, Philips BDP7501 4K, Tivo, 65" LG OLED 4K C6
Computer: Foobar2000, 5K, Mojo, HiFiMan HE1000 V2
Top
#287732 - 2019-09-14 23:59 Re: SpeakerLink Preamp to all Legacy DSP [Re: Fiddler]
Registered: 2018-11-06
Posts: 165
JamieB Offline
Hitchhiker
JamieB Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2018-11-06
Posts: 165
Loc: Seattle, USA
So grateful to have others footsteps to follow. I haven't done any electronics since college! I am getting different readings from my 861v8. I am getting the expected ~ 4V peak to peak on the AES side, and 3.3V on the other (though its nearer 4.3V and 3.6V, but the ratio is right for the transformer). I'm using SESCOM 110ohm to 75ohm XLR to BNC converter that looks physically identical to the neutrik one below.

I'm sharing this in case:

a) I'm making a rookie mistake, or
b) The 861v8 has very different output voltages than the G68.

So I'm going to build my first one with the 56 and 22 ohm resistors like Fiddlers first pass.

SL side:



BNC side:



Cave: 861v8; HD621; Oppo 203 Vanity HD; 4xDSP5ks, DSP5kC; Sony Z9D, PS4 Pro; Roku Ultra 2017;
Living: HiFiBerry Roon; 2xDSP5ks
Nest: Bluesound Power NODE; 2x Mission 700s
Kitchen: Bluesound Flex stereo pair
Roon overkill AMD 3400G; 32GB Ram; 960 Evos
Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >

Moderator:  Carl, Duncs, ncpl 
Who's Online
5 registered (Caldham, Jeje, Jeremy A-H, Jerrold, Vorticity), 57 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Macko, StefDriver, AlanS, MBelkin, KiwiM
4784 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
CMB Integrations - Bruce 38
Ogri 35
Ratbert 25
Jeremy A-H 22
JamieB 19
Top Posters
VirusKiller 12584
Fiddler 8672
ncpl 8534
Carl 7958
Ian 7816
Forum Stats
4,784 Registered Members
18 Forums
26,556 Topics
266,118 Posts

Most users ever online: 318 @ 2019-10-17 09:59
Meridian  |  Media Centre  |  Support  |  Firmware Release Notes  |  RSS Systems  |  RSS Streaming  |  RSS Restaurant