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#234252 - 2015-04-29 14:36 861v9 speculation thread
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Crion Offline
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Thanks Joe for the report. But now you are responsible for getting my hopes up on DTS:X and Dolby Atmos support on 861 this year! wink

I just hope that 861 will get the CPU power it deserves going forward to provide for high-frequency positional updates when moving soundobjects for an extra smooth Meridian quality experience (like the Trinnov Altitude 32 does) as well as inline upsampling since everything still looks to be 48KHz for some time...

Quote:
The first DTS:X Blu-ray discs are expected to hit the market before the end of the year, while the first DTS:X enabled gear will be available this summer.


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#234253 - 2015-04-29 14:47 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
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Ratbert Offline
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How many Dolby Atmos films are available? Not many according to Dolby's web site Dolby Atmos films list

Russ


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#234254 - 2015-04-29 14:49 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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Originally Posted By: Ratbert
How many Dolby Atmos films are available?
Good question, but remember that Meridian can probably do some pretty cool stuff without explicit Atmos etc. material.


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#234255 - 2015-04-29 14:53 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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Joel

I am hoping so, lots of future technologies around at the moment that may or may not be widely adopted?

Time to wait and see... cool

Russ


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#234256 - 2015-04-29 14:59 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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Albert Offline
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Originally Posted By: VirusKiller
Originally Posted By: Ratbert
How many Dolby Atmos films are available?
Good question, but remember that Meridian can probably do some pretty cool stuff without explicit Atmos etc. material.

Like multi channel MQA?


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#234257 - 2015-04-29 15:04 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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At this time, I'm reminded of something that John Bamford told me years ago about a technology that Rhonda Wilson was developing (before she left for Dolby). Essentially to change, in a multi-channel system, which speakers you want to be the front L/R etc. In essence, you can "rotate the axis" of the room. Complete speculation of course.

But I wonder if increased channel "flexibility" (including the psycho-acoustically important height channels) is going to make an appearance. Atmos etc. might just be part of a more general multi-channel revamp.


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#234258 - 2015-04-29 15:10 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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Split out discussion from "MQA Demo at Audio High, CA" thread


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#234259 - 2015-04-29 15:16 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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Whatever happens I suspect the 861 is going to need a serious 'processor' upgrade, probably built into any new cards that will be required for the 'new formats' 300 MIPS is just not going to cut it in my opinion frown

Cheers
Russ


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#234260 - 2015-04-29 15:19 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Albert]
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Originally Posted By: Albert
Like multi channel MQA?
Albert

Well at least Trifield for MQA, quite a task to achieve well especially if they choose to utilise the height channels?

Russ


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#234264 - 2015-04-29 16:15 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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Strikes me that there's two key things at stake here, i.e.
- MQA
- DTS X etc.

Ref MQA, sounds like this will require a new plug in card. If that's the case, can we please have one that is compatible with 861 units back to the v4, as I'd be very interested.


Ref DTS and the other surround formats. The impression that I've been given is that the key required changes are probably:

- Sufficient processing (CPU) hardware to support any increase in calculations. Do we actually know there that it will be more complex? Sure, it's a new format, but doesn't automatically mean it'll be more complex.

- New firmware software for the unit to support what is potentially three new formats.

- New output boards to support additional speakers. Clearly the existing 861 can already support 7.1, i.e. 8 channels. Will it be as easy as just stuffing more output cards into the same chassis? If that is what's required, it there sufficient space and power to support the additional cards?

Would be interesting to know answers to the above.


861v4/ID40/LPS, HD621, Roon, Quad Artera, Impulse Ta'us, Rel Storm 3. Explorer 2 with HD600s.
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#234265 - 2015-04-29 16:25 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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Yetis Offline
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It's going to need to be more than a processor upgrade. At the very least, it will need the ability to decode Atmos and then several more channel of output, likely 16 if it wants to represent. If they provide analog support, it's a crowded back panel, assuming the commensurate # of speakerlink connections. Should be interesting. Some have suggested processing is done at the HD621 level, which should assume a considerable upgrade there.


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#234266 - 2015-04-29 16:31 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Mr_Sukebe]
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Originally Posted By: Mr_Sukebe
Strikes me that there's two key things at stake here, i.e.
- MQA
- DTS X etc

Ref MQA, sounds like this will require a new plug in card. If that's the case, can we please have one that is compatible with 861 units back to the v4, as I'd be very interested.
Doubt it as the 861v4 was a dead end after the last upgrade for LPS and ID40, but then again it was a dead end before that! so never say never.
Originally Posted By: Mr_Sukebe
Ref DTS and the other surround formats. The impression that I've been given is that the key required changes are probably:
- Sufficient processing (CPU) hardware to support any increase in calculations. Do we actually know there that it will be more complex? Sure, it's a new format, but doesn't automatically mean it'll be more complex
I think so, my understanding is that currently we have discreet channels of sound that the processor sends out, with Atmos it is a single channel of audio with position information for sound eg: 'gunshot top left', 'helicopter overhead moving front to back' this information is passed to the processor and then the processor has to figure out how best to handle that based on the speaker configuration it has, this would use more processing I think?
Originally Posted By: Mr_Sukebe
- New firmware software for the unit to support what is potentially three new formats.
I think this is a given.
Originally Posted By: Mr_Sukebe
- New output boards to support additional speakers. Clearly the existing 861 can already support 7.1, i.e. 8 channels. Will it be as easy as just stuffing more output cards into the same chassis? If that is what's required, it there sufficient space and power to support the additional cards?
It is possible that the output cards would be replaced and new cards provided with additional outputs, or as you say add on output cards provided, if new cards were provided they could include daughter boards with additional processing on to spread the cpu load?
Originally Posted By: Mr_Sukebe
Would be interesting to know answers to the above.
Cheers
Russ


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Edited by Carl; 2015-04-29 18:24. Edit Reason: Split quote in to sections to aid reading.
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#234269 - 2015-04-29 16:45 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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Knowing Meridian, it wouldn't surprise me if they offloaded (distributed) some of the processing to a new piece of kit that the 861 talked to.

A kind of HD621, but on the output side for those who want Atmos etc.

A single trunked input from 861, *lots* of channels out.

Wild speculation.


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#234270 - 2015-04-29 17:08 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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'Wild speculation'

Everything is at the moment whistle nice guess though smile

Russ


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#234271 - 2015-04-29 17:35 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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If M ever do support object-based audio then I think it is clear they will have to depart from their current 'decoding-done-in-the-source' model. As discussed previoulsy, my money is on a massively upgraded HD621 (hopefully 822) which will decode everything.

How the extra channels are handled is a key question: is this via a 861v10 or another box. I think we will have to wait a (quite a) while to find out. In the mean time, a Marantz 8802 will fill in HT duties for me.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#234272 - 2015-04-29 17:41 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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Originally Posted By: VirusKiller
A single trunked input from 861, *lots* of channels out.

Wild speculation.
Where would the decoding be done in this model? Can't see a HDMI input let anywhere near a 861.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#234273 - 2015-04-29 17:46 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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New/revised HD621, I guess + new protocol into 861.


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#234274 - 2015-04-29 18:01 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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I am sure I read somewhere that big companies like Onkyo and Marantz / Denon due to volume got the licence for the likes of Dolby Atmos a year before smaller companies were allowed it.

I dont know if its been a year but I would have thought it will then take time for the smaller companies to get there hands on it and develop it for their own products.

DTSX seems better as you can use Front Height speakers instead of ceiling speakers which is much easier to integrate into the home environment and they have said 2 speakers in a hemispherical location is minimum really to get that correct effect - but it would work with that setup

I thought that was excellent news for people not keen on ceiling speakers


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#234276 - 2015-04-29 18:11 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: EllisDJ]
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EllisDJ

With Rhonda Wilson ex Meridian now at Dolby I would have thought Meridian would have 'special access' ?

Russ


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#234279 - 2015-04-29 18:20 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: EllisDJ]
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Originally Posted By: EllisDJ
I am sure I read somewhere that big companies like Onkyo and Marantz / Denon due to volume got the licence for the likes of Dolby Atmos a year before smaller companies were allowed it.


Not sure about that, Theta, Trinnov and Datasat have had Atmos for a while, at least in the development side. Many of these companies got access via their pro side.


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#234280 - 2015-04-29 18:23 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Yetis]
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I'm fairly sure the limiting factor is how long Meridian need before they can produce an Atmos solution they consider worthy - and of course whether they consider it worth selling at all - rather than any problem with licensing the codec in the first place.


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#234281 - 2015-04-29 18:33 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ludwig]
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Yes, rather like 3D being a flash-in-the-pan. All that engineering and customer spend going down the toilet.


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#234282 - 2015-04-29 18:56 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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I do believe object-based audio rendering will become the norm in time (not necessarily with silly numbers of speakers). I also think it would be a good fit to Ms expertise.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#234283 - 2015-04-29 19:18 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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The trouble is Cliff, isn't it Dolby and co. who are pushing this, not the studios (who will have to invest in capital and expertise to achieve this, much like 3D...).

Or have the studios been asking for this?


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#234288 - 2015-04-29 19:44 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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EllisDJ Offline
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I hope 3D stays I love it - its getting better all the time with better film production

I also hope if there is a new HD621 it uses a Linear Power Supply rather than smps


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#234292 - 2015-04-29 20:11 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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Originally Posted By: VirusKiller
The trouble is Cliff, isn't it Dolby and co. who are pushing this, not the studios (who will have to invest in capital and expertise to achieve this, much like 3D...).

Or have the studios been asking for this?
I think youre right, its Dolby (and now DTS) who are pushing on this. Dolby is arguing that mixing in Atmos doesn't impose significant time or creative penalties on a studio's existing workflow and that the post production process automatically creates 5.1 and 7.1 mixes of a movie which are used for unmodified cinemas and home video distribution. They are also pointing out that film sound mixers love the extra control these formats provide.

On the downside, its a significant financial outlay to equip a cinema for Atmos, but if it puts more bums on seats

Well see.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#234294 - 2015-04-29 21:26 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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But in theory couldn't a HD621 via firmware update enable bitstream receive and send that bitstream to the 861v9 for proper DTS:X/Atmos decoding just as it can for DTS/DD streams today? The HDMI input switching and audiostream separation layout could then stay the same but now DTS:X and Atmos stream can now be decoded in the 861v9.

I see a place for an updated HD621 for proper 4k with HDCP 2.2 which will be mandatory.


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#234298 - 2015-04-29 22:49 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
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I know that it is fun to speculate. But before we get too far ahead of ourselves speculating about a product not due for some time it would be great to have some new facts about MQA progress (announced last December); and the delayed 818 and 808 models!

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#234311 - 2015-04-30 01:46 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Asa Post]
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How about speculation on the cause(s) for delay in 808/818 w/MQA rollout?


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#234313 - 2015-04-30 01:52 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: ISB]
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Definitely off topic...


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#234345 - 2015-04-30 20:11 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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I would expect an announcement during the Munich show in June.


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#234346 - 2015-04-30 20:13 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: prm1177]
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laugh


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#234351 - 2015-04-30 20:36 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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I think many of us would be happy with a low-priced (in Meridian terms!!) 861 upgrade to support MQA and to introduce a few other improvements (e.g. multi-channel audio over USB) but to bundle into it what could possibly be a high-priced (by any standards) upgrade to support Dolby Atmos would be a shame.

That is not to say that I don't want Meridian to deliver Dolby Atmos capability, I just personally have no desire to invest in a technology which is currently AV-specific, has low support in terms of desireable content, and would demand further investments elsewhere (players, speakers, etc.).

The 861 and other Meridian processors have succesfully combined support for two-channel/multi-channel music and multi-channel AV to date. MQA and Dolby Atmos together may be a step too far and create the need for a separation in the architectures or at least another tier:

- 2-channel
- 2 channel with MQA
- multi-channel with MQA
- multi-channel with Dolby Atmos
- multi-channel with MQA and Dolby Atmos

which looks like a production engineering and configuration management nightmare to me.

A couple of pre-owned 861s have tempted me recently but I (and I know others here) need to understand the roadmap viz:

- upgrade cost for MQA support from 861v6
- upgrade cost for MQA support from 861v8
- what else is included (see above)?
- what is a dead end?

before I am prepared to commit a major investment, given that pre-pros suffer the second highest depreciation after disc players.


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#234357 - 2015-04-30 21:28 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Gianni]
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Ronnie Offline
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Ronnie Offline
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I was about to write a very similar post, but Gianni beat me to it.

I suspect many here will find an "MQA Upgrade" to their 861's to be desirable... but that any Upgrade to Atmos / DTS X etc., etc should be optional via Cards or other external devices.

IMHO, there is simply not enough "worthwhile" Movies per annum to justify such an investment... and for one I wouldn't like to pay whatever is necessary to make my 861 16 channel and Atmos compatible etc.


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#234358 - 2015-04-30 21:34 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ronnie]
Registered: 2010-12-09
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Ratbert Offline
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Ratbert Offline
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+1 and to give Meridian some credit I don't think they would force an MQA and Dolby Atmos upgrade on owners as an all or nothing upgrade?

Russ


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#234359 - 2015-04-30 22:07 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
Registered: 2004-04-15
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VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic
VirusKiller Offline
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To give Meridian its due, the guys normally think through these major new pieces of functionality very well, and typically offer them in a sensible way, when the time is right, and often with retro-support.

However, doing so much in secrecy, there is normally a use case or two that gets completely forgotten and is really annoying. E.g. HD621 lack of vanilla DD/DTS decoding.


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#234360 - 2015-04-30 22:26 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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Cliff. Offline
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Cliff. Offline
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Given the many options for Atmos\DTS:X setups (5.1.2, 7.2.4, 9.2.4 etc.), Id be very surprised if next generation 861 is an all or nothing option.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#234362 - 2015-04-30 22:53 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2001-05-23
Posts: 2,718
Gianni Offline
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Gianni Offline
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Originally Posted By: VirusKiller
when the time is right
I don't doubt the thinking that Meridian put into sensible product options, it's just that "the time is right" and the motivation seems to be split in the case of MQA vs. object-based audio.

Perhaps not a road-map but a statement of intent along the lines of either:

"Meridian regard object-based audio as a young technology with little commercial content likely to be available in the next 18 months to drive consumer take-up."

or:

"Meridian believe object-based audio is a paradigm shift in AV engineering and are actively pursuing options within its existing product line..."


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#234366 - 2015-05-01 01:37 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Gianni]
Registered: 2010-12-09
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Ratbert Offline
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Comment from Meridian or one of the dealers would be more than welcome, the silence is dragging on...

Russ


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#234368 - 2015-05-01 02:54 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Gianni]
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Yetis Offline
Pan-dimensional being
Yetis Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gianni
I think many of us would be happy with a low-priced (in Meridian terms!!) 861 upgrade to support MQA and to introduce a few other improvements (e.g. multi-channel audio over USB) but to bundle into it what could possibly be a high-priced (by any standards) upgrade to support Dolby Atmos would be a shame.
I think Classe has made a product Classe Sigma-SSP that seems to fit this description, even promising to provide Atmos and HDMI 2.1, when available. Seems more akin to the G65, seems to check all the boxes. Of course, M could still do their two box thing, which I personally like.


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#234386 - 2015-05-02 10:33 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Yetis]
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DLinsley Offline
Formerly Meridian506 Paranoid android
DLinsley Offline
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It's nice to hear some speculation about object based audio support. Meridian's position at the front of the line in cutting edge home theater in the 90's was what first drew me in. This slower cycle was just not them 15-20 years ago:

One of the first (if not the first) with Dolby Digital
Again with DTS (when everyone else was using the outboard Millennium decoder)
A free upgrade for the 561 being the launch vehicle for PL2.

Sure this was all building on the 8 digital channel support already in the 565, but the 565 itself was also cutting edge and ahead of its time. I'm sure EBA and MQA are wonderful, but I'm glad to have some HT excitement even if its purely speculation!


Theater: G68ADV, Anthem MRX-1120, DSP5500.3 x 3, M33x4, Kef Ci200QRx4 Rythmik D15 sub, JVC RS600, RadiancePro, Panamorph UH480, Oppo 103 + Vanity 103 Lite
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#234450 - 2015-05-04 03:04 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: DLinsley]
Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,287
Crion Offline
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Crion Offline
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Object based audio and immersive audio is happening to multichannel audio. You adapt or get left in the dust.
USB Multichannel is long overdue.


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#234452 - 2015-05-04 06:32 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
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Ratbert Offline
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Ratbert Offline
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Originally Posted By Crion
You adapt or get left in the dust.
Like 3D? I too am interested in object based audio but being at the bleeding edge is not usually a wise choice.

Russ


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#234474 - 2015-05-04 13:48 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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Crion Offline
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Crion Offline
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Meridian supported 3D via a simple HD621 firmware upgrade and that is fine in my book.

861v9 is a multichannel audio processor in the upper echelons and I expect it to stay there while paying for continued upgrades to it.

I don't think you can stop the Immersive/Object based audio train going from the mixing stage (check) to the cinema (check) to BD (new years). Those audio object queues will get left out by processors not being able to decode them and thus will miss more and more important queues and effects that corresponds to onscreen and offcscreen action as times moves on,

I think it's just too flexible technology to not use it from the mixing stage, regardless if you manage to put up two/four DSP3300 in the ceiling or not.


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#234712 - 2015-05-08 22:09 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2004-09-25
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prm1177 Offline
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prm1177 Offline
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There is a lot of speculation about object based audio on film soundtracks for the home. However in spite of the supposition on some writers' part, there is no evidence that a Dolby Atmos cinema mix can be decoded by an Atmos Home decoder. A re-mix will need to be done for home Atmos and at an added expense for the studio. Plus, I would expect the audio payload to be 30-40% larger for an Atmos enabled mix relative to the TrueHD 5.1 or even 7.1 mix of the same film. This makes it less likely for Atmos mixes to appear on regular Blu-Ray discs (unless the studios delete some supplemental material.)

While the barrier to Home Atmos is relatively low for consumers, it remains higher for the studios.


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#234729 - 2015-05-09 19:37 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: prm1177]
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Jaco Offline
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Jaco Offline
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The Atmos films on Bluray I have seen were mostly 4000 - 7000 kbps.

DTS-HD mixes are also 3000 - 5000 kbps for movies with 7.1 soundtracks.
So Atmos mixes may need more bandwidth, but not that much.


Sold all M equipment
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#234732 - 2015-05-09 21:03 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: prm1177]
Registered: 2004-08-12
Posts: 199
Anthony-Howard Offline
Hitchhiker
Anthony-Howard Offline
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Originally Posted By prm1177
A re-mix will need to be done for home Atmos and at an added expense for the studio.
Sorry but unless I greatly misunderstand object based audio (And I fully concede that this may be the case) but there is no 'mix' as such. There are objects with defined meta-data specifying characteristics such as the objects positional location. It is then up to the decoder/rendered/endpoint whatever you wish to call it to produce the 'mix' during playback.

There simply is nothing to re-mix in the traditional sense. As for the 30-40% added overhead for the meta-data I can't comment but it does sound like an awful lot for things like positional meta-data.

Cheers,
Tony.


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#234758 - 2015-05-10 13:28 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Anthony-Howard]
Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,287
Crion Offline
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Crion Offline
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Interesting view from the sound engineer on how to transfer Dolby Atmos from cinema to home 7.1.4 Atmos.

Bringing Dolby Atmos Home Via Blu-ray


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
Edited by Carl; 2015-05-10 13:58. Edit Reason: URL Wrapped with Tag
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#234762 - 2015-05-10 18:05 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Jaco]
Registered: 2004-09-25
Posts: 138
prm1177 Offline
Hitchhiker
prm1177 Offline
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Originally Posted By Jaco
The Atmos films on Bluray I have seen were mostly 4000 - 7000 kbps.

DTS-HD mixes are also 3000 - 5000 kbps for movies with 7.1 soundtracks.
So Atmos mixes may need more bandwidth, but not that much.
Looking at the ranges you indicate, a change of 3 to 4 Mbps is an increase of 33% and from 5 to 7 is 40%.

The issue for the studios is not necessarily the bandwidth, but the total payload cost. At an additional 2 Mbps, a 2 hour blockbuster could require substantially more space allocated for Atmos.


Meridian Advocate
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#234763 - 2015-05-10 18:23 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Anthony-Howard]
Registered: 2004-09-25
Posts: 138
prm1177 Offline
Hitchhiker
prm1177 Offline
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Loc: Marin, California, USA
Originally Posted By Anthony-Howard
Originally Posted By prm1177
A re-mix will need to be done for home Atmos and at an added expense for the studio.
Sorry but unless I greatly misunderstand object based audio (And I fully concede that this may be the case) but there is no 'mix' as such. There are objects with defined meta-data specifying characteristics such as the objects positional location. It is then up to the decoder/rendered/endpoint whatever you wish to call it to produce the 'mix' during playback.

There simply is nothing to re-mix in the traditional sense. As for the 30-40% added overhead for the meta-data I can't comment but it does sound like an awful lot for things like positional meta-data.
Tony,

In the film world the term mix includes both the combination and positioning of the thousands of individual sound elements that go into a sound track. The mixers also balance the relative levels and tone of the channels.

Atmos mixes include, not only the metadata required for positioning the additional Atmos sound elements, but those discrete sound elements as well. Depending on the choices made by the sound designer and director, the number of available channels can extend well beyond the traditional 5.1 or 7.1 we are used to.

In addition, the elements will need to be rebalanced for the smaller home environment. Most home Atmos systems have available, perhaps 4-6 height/ceiling channels rather than the larger numbers available in many cinemas. Relative levels and even positioning may need to be tweaked before new playback rendering metadata can be generated.

My original point is that this adds post production costs to a home media release, in addition to an increase in the audio payload on the discs. It's not always a given that Atmos will be available on a home release, even if it is a prominent part of a film's soundtrack. I know of a few cases of studio resistance, when a home Atmos relese is proposed.


Meridian Advocate
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#234764 - 2015-05-10 18:39 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: prm1177]
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Cliff. Offline
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Cliff. Offline
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I think the additional audio payload is irrelevant - just watch the extras disappear if the studios think they can make more money out of the release (or releases). The latter will be the sole driver IMHO. Also, we are on the verge of 4k BR so it's difficult to predict the future. My money is on object-based audio becoming the norm.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#234770 - 2015-05-10 21:54 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: prm1177]
Registered: 2004-08-12
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Anthony-Howard Offline
Hitchhiker
Anthony-Howard Offline
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I am afraid that I am still not getting it. Isn't one of the points of using objects and their corresponding metadata that the processor knows about the speaker layout, distances and configuration and uses this to produce the most accurate/representative output based on the object metadata?

If the number of channels, relative levels and positions need to be compensated for by a remix then what is the point of object based audio? If any 'rebalancing' needs to be done isn't that the job of the end processor? Surely we can't be back to having to produce a mix for each layout and having to tightly control the room and speaker layout to get the best out of a soundtrack. If so what is the point of object based audio if not to get the best out of varying speaker and room layouts and configurations?

Cheers,

Tony.


Sources: MS600, G98DH, Oppo BDP-93, HTPC, Roon
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#234791 - 2015-05-11 16:45 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Anthony-Howard]
Registered: 2004-09-25
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prm1177 Offline
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prm1177 Offline
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At this moment, I'm afraid re-mixes are necessary. I know of 3 films in post that are waiting for the studios to OK a home Atmos, near-field mix.

While the rendering processor might do an adequate job of re-routing the individual assets and combining them into fewer channels, I don't believe they are sophisticated enough to determine if the sources being combined are correlated or uncorrelated. When you combine 2 assets into 1 speaker do you pad by -3dB (uncorrelated) or -6dB (correlated)? That's why the mixers re-balance the audio.


Meridian Advocate
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#234792 - 2015-05-11 16:56 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
Registered: 2004-09-25
Posts: 138
prm1177 Offline
Hitchhiker
prm1177 Offline
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Originally Posted By Cliff.
I think the additional audio payload is irrelevant - just watch the extras disappear if the studios think they can make more money out of the release (or releases). The latter will be the sole driver IMHO. Also, we are on the verge of 4k BR so it's difficult to predict the future. My money is on object-based audio becoming the norm.
Very true. They argue what will drive disc sales; more special features or an Atmos mix. I believe Atmos will come into its own when UHD Blu_Ray becomes a reality. They you will have a clear correlation between media and quality: DVD-Dolby digital, Blu-Ray-Dolby TruHD or DTS Master, UHD Blu-Ray-Dolby Atmos.


Meridian Advocate
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#235055 - 2015-05-14 15:26 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: DLinsley]
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 41
Eloise Offline
Harmless
Eloise Offline
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Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 41
Loc: East Midlands, UK
Originally Posted By DLinsley
It's nice to hear some speculation about object based audio support. Meridian's position at the front of the line in cutting edge home theater in the 90's was what first drew me in. This slower cycle was just not them 15-20 years ago:

One of the first (if not the first) with Dolby Digital
Again with DTS (when everyone else was using the outboard Millennium decoder)
A free upgrade for the 561 being the launch vehicle for PL2.

Sure this was all building on the 8 digital channel support already in the 565, but the 565 itself was also cutting edge and ahead of its time. I'm sure EBA and MQA are wonderful, but I'm glad to have some HT excitement even if its purely speculation!

I'm slightly speculating here ... but I think part of this is a big change in how things are developed and implemented. In the 90s when HT itself was the cutting edge, people like Meridian took off the shelf DSPs and created their own code for processing. The large CE companies had to do likewise.

Now everything is just done with standard code for the likes of Denon and Marantz and Onkyo. And as the major customers they get the code for DSP chips as exclusives before everyone. Considering now there are only 3 major CE brands - Denon and Marantz; Onkyo, Integra and Pioneer and then Yamaha - each one probably has an exclusive from one IC giant. This leaves smaller more HiFi orientated companies such as Meridian, Classe / Rotel, Arcam, etc. having to either wait till the exclusivity period has ended, or developing their own code. Certainly I've heard comments from B&W representatives that they've not had access to the chipsets from their DSP suppliers to enable them to develop Atmos, etc. processors.

Eloise

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#235059 - 2015-05-14 15:55 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Eloise]
Registered: 2007-02-06
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Jon Raines Offline
Paranoid android
Jon Raines Offline
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Loc: Peterborough, UK
Meridian co developed Dolby tru HD so I would imagine they were at the front of the queue for their chipset


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#235104 - 2015-05-15 13:48 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: prm1177]
Registered: 2004-09-25
Posts: 138
prm1177 Offline
Hitchhiker
prm1177 Offline
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Loc: Marin, California, USA
Originally Posted By prm1177
At this moment, I'm afraid re-mixes are necessary. I know of 3 films in post that are waiting for the studios to OK a home Atmos, near-field mix.
Make that 1 film. Two have been denied (for now) a Home Atmos mix.


Meridian Advocate
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#235106 - 2015-05-15 14:32 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: prm1177]
Registered: 2001-01-08
Posts: 4,122
Ronnie Offline
Vogon Civil Servant
Ronnie Offline
Vogon Civil Servant

Registered: 2001-01-08
Posts: 4,122
Loc: UK
Care to share any Movie Names??


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#235107 - 2015-05-15 15:13 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ronnie]
Registered: 2010-12-09
Posts: 3,365
Ratbert Offline
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Ratbert Offline
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Registered: 2010-12-09
Posts: 3,365
Loc: Europe
Silent movie whistle

Russ


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#235112 - 2015-05-15 18:13 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
Registered: 2002-11-08
Posts: 426
PerS1 Offline
(MDS Norway AS) Paranoid android
PerS1 Offline
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Paranoid android

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Posts: 426
Loc: Asker, Akershus, Norway
Differences from commercial installations
Because of limited bandwidth and lack of processing power, Atmos in home theaters is not a real-time mix rendered the same way as in cinemas. The substream is added to Dolby TrueHD or Dolby Digital Plus. This substream only represents a losslessly encoded fully object-based mix. This substream does not include all 128 objects separated. This is not a matrix-encoded channel, but a spatially-encoded digital channel. Atmos in home theaters can support 24.1.10 channel, but it is not an object-based real-time rendering. Filmmakers need to remix and render the TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus soundtracks with Dolby Media Producer. TrueHD is base with the help of MLP, so it would be not far fetched if Atmos also depends on same codecs with Meridian techteams help.


PerS


40th.Anv.DSP8000SE &861v8/ID41,Meridian Ultra Dac,C15 Black w/SSD,QNAP TS-669Pro 6X3 Tb w/Core,HD621,Oppo UDP-203 ,JVC DLA-X700R, 2xJL Audio F112v2, Marantz 8802A for Atmos with KEF Reference 5 and 4C withR700 sides & rears and 4xKEF R50 Atmos
Edited by PerS1; 2015-05-15 18:18.
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#235115 - 2015-05-15 18:32 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: PerS1]
Registered: 2009-03-21
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MJT5282 Offline
Working on the ultimate question
MJT5282 Offline
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Meridian has been talking about the new DSP 320 in-ceiling/in-wall speakers at the Munich show. Surely a press release for a new processor with object-based audio is in the works...save the money you would have spent on amplification and buy some new in-ceiling DSP speakers instead oh and a new 861 upgrade!


Primary: 818v3+ID41, DSP8000SE, M SpeakerLink cabling, Sonos+96kHz Cullen, M Prime Headphone Amp, Senn HD700
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#235116 - 2015-05-15 18:35 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: MJT5282]
Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,287
Crion Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
Crion Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,287
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Yep, DSP320 is alot more convenient than DSP3200 for height/ceiling placement. smile


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#235117 - 2015-05-15 18:57 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ronnie]
Registered: 2004-09-25
Posts: 138
prm1177 Offline
Hitchhiker
prm1177 Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2004-09-25
Posts: 138
Loc: Marin, California, USA
Originally Posted By Ronnie
Care to share any Movie Names?
The film they will release is "My Dinner with Andre".

Seriously, can't mention titles or studios without violating multiple NDAs. That said, I still stand by my prediction that UHD Blu-Ray will drive Home Atmos and certainly differentiate the physical media from 4k streaming and pay TV.

The two films that didn't get the go ahead may eventually get home Atmos mixes. It depends on this summer's box office and how many UHD players and Home Atmos systems will be available this fall.


Meridian Advocate
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#235200 - 2015-05-17 14:36 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: PerS1]
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Anthony-Howard Offline
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Originally Posted By PerS1
Differences from commercial installations
Because of limited bandwidth and lack of processing power, Atmos in home theaters is not a real-time mix rendered the same way as in cinemas. The substream is added to Dolby TrueHD or Dolby Digital Plus. This substream only represents a losslessly encoded fully object-based mix. This substream does not include all 128 objects separated. This is not a matrix-encoded channel, but a spatially-encoded digital channel. Atmos in home theaters can support 24.1.10 channel, but it is not an object-based real-time rendering. Filmmakers need to remix and render the TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus soundtracks with Dolby Media Producer. TrueHD is base with the help of MLP, so it would be not far fetched if Atmos also depends on same codecs with Meridian techteams help.
Well I am definitely missing something here then. Why all the hype for home Atmos? Sounds like a big let down. Isn't spatial encoding kind of like Ambisonics? If so it's hardly revolutionary. Sounds like a damp squib to me. Not sure I would invest too much in it based on that. Certainly not enough to jump to 861v9 territory just to get it.

Cheers,

Tony.


Sources: MS600, G98DH, Oppo BDP-93, HTPC, Roon
Processors: G61RSL, HD621, Lumagen 4020
Speakers: DSP5200SL FL/FR, DSP5200VC C, DSP3200 SL/SR, DSP3200 RL/RR, DSW
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#235201 - 2015-05-17 14:56 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Anthony-Howard]
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Gianni Offline
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If the speculative 861v9 is to support Atmos, etc., it would have to support more than eight channels. And it would have to start being very friendly towards mixed analogue and digital speaker set-ups as high-wall ceiling mounted DSPs would be a very specific niche. The current back panel layout looks like a limiting factor here.

Height speakers seem like the sort of thing a SOTA processor should support so there may be drivers outside Atmos, etc.


Wonderful perfect quadraphonic sound with distortion levels so low as to make a brave man weep smile
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#235220 - 2015-05-17 18:28 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Gianni]
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Cliff. Offline
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I agree, active, ceiling mounted speakers will be the preserve of the dedicated HT setup. One further reason why I'm sticking to analogue speakers.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#235470 - 2015-05-21 13:55 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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Crion Offline
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One could put a DSP320 in every corner in a 10cm deep frame. mount a simple PDU with 4 outlets to the frame. Then mount that frame to the ceiling.

1 powercable, 2 Speakerlink.

Instant 7.1.4 Atmos. wink


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#235471 - 2015-05-21 14:31 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
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Cliff. Offline
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Originally Posted By Crion
Instant 7.1.4 Atmos. wink
I think you will be waiting more than an instant for something to connect them to wink

Edit: 12" cut-out holes for the DSP320 - a lot bigger than your average ceiling speaker and the bass driver doesn't appear that substantial either.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#235915 - 2015-05-31 13:30 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Eloise]
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Jimbo Offline
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Originally Posted By Eloise
I'm slightly speculating here ... but I think part of this is a big change in how things are developed and implemented. In the 90s when HT itself was the cutting edge, people like Meridian took off the shelf DSPs and created their own code for processing. The large CE companies had to do likewise.

Now everything is just done with standard code for the likes of Denon and Marantz and Onkyo. And as the major customers they get the code for DSP chips as exclusives before everyone. Considering now there are only 3 major CE brands - Denon and Marantz; Onkyo, Integra and Pioneer and then Yamaha - each one probably has an exclusive from one IC giant. This leaves smaller more HiFi orientated companies such as Meridian, Classe / Rotel, Arcam, etc. having to either wait till the exclusivity period has ended, or developing their own code. Certainly I've heard comments from B&W representatives that they've not had access to the chipsets from their DSP suppliers to enable them to develop Atmos, etc. processors.
Due to the large increase in processing power required for the new Atmos/DTS:X formats, Meridian may decide it is more practical to move to an Intel i7 processor and software based solution for the DSP processing?

This is what Trinnov decided to do with their Altitude32, 32 channel Home theatre pre-amp/processor. Basically a server/PC based engine (running under Linux I suspect?)

Current generation off the shelf DSP chips are not as flexible to program/update, or as powerful.


861v4 LPSU, HD621, Sony HW40, PMC AML2, PMC IB2SA Centre - Triamped via Wyred4Sound MMC, PMC Wafer2 surr, PMC SB100 Sub & Wyred4Sound SX-1000, Dune HD MAX. Oppo BDP-105D Signature. Mede8ER 600X3D
Marantz CD94/CDA94. Rotel RB-1562, LG 65" OLED. IPL Acoustics STL5. Virgin Tivo. HifiMan HE-1000/Audio-GD M9. Stax SR-007/KGSSHV Carbon‏.
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#235917 - 2015-05-31 13:47 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Gianni]
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Jimbo Offline
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Originally Posted By Gianni
If the speculative 861v9 is to support Atmos, etc., it would have to support more than eight channels. And it would have to start being very friendly towards mixed analogue and digital speaker set-ups as high-wall ceiling mounted DSPs would be a very specific niche. The current back panel layout looks like a limiting factor here.

Height speakers seem like the sort of thing a SOTA processor should support so there may be drivers outside Atmos, etc.
The 861v9 would require at least one extra 4 channel analogue output card for users such as myself with analogue active speakers, in order to support 1 or 2 pairs of height channels.

Plus the HD621 would of course have to support passing this through to the 861.
(I Wish they would add a 2nd HDMI output to the HD621, as I use a TV and a projector. Also a headphone output on the 861v9 please smile )

There are also directional speakers available now which sit on top of the front L/R speakers to fire the height audio up to the ceiling. I had the opportunity to demo this implementation, using Dolby Atmos Demo material, and it was virtually as good as using 2 front ceiling speakers, for Dolby Atmos. If the 861v9 does support Atmos/DTS:X then I want to avoid having to fit ceiling speakers in my living room ceiling if possible wink


861v4 LPSU, HD621, Sony HW40, PMC AML2, PMC IB2SA Centre - Triamped via Wyred4Sound MMC, PMC Wafer2 surr, PMC SB100 Sub & Wyred4Sound SX-1000, Dune HD MAX. Oppo BDP-105D Signature. Mede8ER 600X3D
Marantz CD94/CDA94. Rotel RB-1562, LG 65" OLED. IPL Acoustics STL5. Virgin Tivo. HifiMan HE-1000/Audio-GD M9. Stax SR-007/KGSSHV Carbon‏.
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#235923 - 2015-05-31 14:57 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Jimbo]
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Ratbert Offline
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Meridian could choose to add the necessary processing for Atmos to the new MQA cards we all assume will be needed?

Russ


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#235926 - 2015-05-31 18:47 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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Cliff. Offline
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Maybe, but I have a feeling that more fundamental changes to the 861 processing architecture will be required. I may be wrong but I don't think M will be joining the Atmos\DTS:X party for a while.

I'm going to stick with M for music but in the next few weeks I should have a hybrid Marantz8802\Meridian861 processing solution up and running for Atmos etc.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#235931 - 2015-05-31 21:28 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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Crion Offline
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I wouldn't count Meridian out of immersive audio. They are well versed with Dolby I would say.

Now, DTS:X I have no idea about. But DTS may have 90% of BD audio today? (I know there are sites with proper numbers) but the larger share atleast. So DTS can not be ignored. But 16 channels would cover both proper?


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#235940 - 2015-05-31 23:13 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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CoolKish Offline
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Originally Posted By Cliff.
Maybe, but I have a feeling that more fundamental changes to the 861 processing architecture will be required. I may be wrong but I don't think M will be joining the Atmos\DTS:X party for a while.



Nah M is coming out with upgrades grin (yes, will be a architecture change to support decoding/multiple channels/processing)- the only question is $$ for upgrade/or switch.

Regards,
Kishore

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#235941 - 2015-06-01 06:59 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: CoolKish]
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Cliff. Offline
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I hope your info is correct. However, I’d be surprised if we see anything within 12 months. They will probably have to release an updated HD621 first (and the current model didn’t exactly make a swift appearance). Also, I’m not sure I want to spend £££ on a first generation processor – there are too many new formats converging at the moment

It will interesting to see how successful DTS is in getting back into cinemas with its licence-free ‘MDA Creator’. Regarding BR content, it appears that Atmos can be fairly easily converted to DTS:X (ar least according to this ) which is very encouraging. Early adopters will have to rely on Neural:X (which up samples existing DTS HD content) for quite a while I fear.






Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#235942 - 2015-06-01 07:50 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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Maybe when ALL films are released in Atmos the consumer demand will increase, currently I see it as very niche, it will be interesting to see if it survives in the longer term? 3D anyone!

Russ


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#235943 - 2015-06-01 07:56 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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VirusKiller Offline
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What if Meridian believes that, for home theatre at least, Atmos is a flash in the pan?


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#235944 - 2015-06-01 08:05 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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Ratbert Offline
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Meridian would need to tell us what they think, that could be a long wait.....

Russ


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#235948 - 2015-06-01 08:28 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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Cliff. Offline
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While some want the best SQ and will raid their piggy banks for those 8ks and the ultimate 2 channel system, others want the best home theatre system for film also. The new sound formats add an extra dimension to the audio. And, even if another Atmos\DTS:X sound track never sees the light of day, you can still make use of those extra height channels, via the upsampling algorithms, DSU and Neural:X for all existing BRs. The former is pretty good by all accounts.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#235949 - 2015-06-01 08:34 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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Meridian has always been keen on height channels - didn't they demo something similar at CES?

@Cliff. I know you are really into object-based HT audio, but this thread does seem to bear the hallmarks of the old pre-HD621 Blu-Ray threads... except (in my perhaps hazy judgment) there is less interest.


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#235951 - 2015-06-01 10:12 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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I agree, and I’m under no illusion that having 9+ speakers in my living room puts me into the very small minority of HT devotees. I do however believe that these new formats will find their way into more mainstream consumer products in the longer term especially with low cost processing power becoming readily available. For example, what about a soundbar where different audio objects are flagged for different psychoacoustic processing to give the illusion of height or surround?


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#235952 - 2015-06-01 11:19 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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Originally Posted By VirusKiller
What if Meridian believes that, for home theatre at least, Atmos is a flash in the pan?

What if Meridian the Studios believe that, for home theatre at least, Atmos is a flash in the pan?

I think that's a more important question at this stage

Let's not forget the recent post about the Studios only green-lighting 1 out of 3 Movies to have a Home Atmos remix on Bluray


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#235953 - 2015-06-01 11:32 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ronnie]
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Originally Posted By Ronnie
What if the Studios believe that, for home theatre at least, Atmos is a flash in the pan?

I think that's a more important question at this stage
You are right Ronnie, and if there is doubt in the studios' minds, then we won't be seeing Atmos in Meridian form for a long time (if at all).


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#235954 - 2015-06-01 11:49 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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+1

Russ


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#235957 - 2015-06-01 12:05 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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#235981 - 2015-06-01 17:20 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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There are already 12 Atmos Enabled titles. With the introduction of Ultra HD Bluray later this year, the Atmos/DTS:X audio will become as standard as Dolby TrueHD/DTS HD MA i expect.
dolby-atmos-bluray-and-streaming

The new format will support a resolution of 3840 x 2160, as well as high dynamic range (HDR), higher frame rates (up to 60 frames per second) and object-based immersive sound, such as Dolby Atmos and DTS:X.
ultra-hd-blu-ray-everything-you-need-to-know

As for Hollywood Studios themselves, 20th Century Fox, Universal Studios Home Entertainment, Walt Disney Motion Pictures Group and Warner Bros. Entertainment are all members of the Blu-ray Disc Association.
So object based 3D sound is not a flash in the pan like 3D was


861v4 LPSU, HD621, Sony HW40, PMC AML2, PMC IB2SA Centre - Triamped via Wyred4Sound MMC, PMC Wafer2 surr, PMC SB100 Sub & Wyred4Sound SX-1000, Dune HD MAX. Oppo BDP-105D Signature. Mede8ER 600X3D
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#235985 - 2015-06-01 18:15 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Jimbo]
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I'm not even convinced that 4k will be a success. Let's be real: most people don't have a home theatre (= max 50" TV, if that) and most people still buy DVDs when they buy a disc. DVD sales are collapsing in favour of streaming and average bandwidth is only good enough to stream 4k with terrible bit rates.


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#235986 - 2015-06-01 18:26 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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...which is a great example of a film that doesn't need "height" effects except perhaps the
Click to reveal... (Spoiler alert)
helicopter at the beginning & end
IMHO, a solution to a problem that we don't have.


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#235996 - 2015-06-01 22:16 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Rolski]
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when Criterion starts to embed Atmos and DTS:X in their high-quality soundtracks I will be compelled to upgrade ... get cracking Meridian!

p.s. I will grant the "naysayers" this might be never ... so be it!


Primary: 818v3+ID41, DSP8000SE, M SpeakerLink cabling, Sonos+96kHz Cullen, M Prime Headphone Amp, Senn HD700
HT: 861v8+ID41, HD621, DSP3300, DSP M6x4, DSW, STP Cat6 cabling,
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Edited by MJT5282; 2015-06-01 22:17. Edit Reason: added ps
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#236003 - 2015-06-02 07:14 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Rolski]
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Originally Posted By Rolski
IMHO, a solution to a problem that we don't have.
I think it's a misconception that only crash, bang action sequences benefit from height effects. Perhaps you shouldn't pass judgement on a soundtrack until you've actually heard it wink


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#236005 - 2015-06-02 07:47 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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Originally Posted By Cliff.
Perhaps you shouldn't pass judgement on a soundtrack until you've actually heard it wink
That's fair, and it does raise the other very important point that there's no substitute for *good*, well-recorded, mixed, and mastered material, irrespective of the technology used.

My movie showpiece for sound quality is the "Rise a knight" (Balian and Guy sword fight) scene on the Kingdom of Heaven Director's Cut Blu-Ray. Stunning impact and realism.


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#236037 - 2015-06-02 19:58 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
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I have the 861v4 with LPSU, and will want to make the move to v9 when it is released within the next 6 months.
I assume even the v6 or v8 will offer even better sound quality to my v4, bearing in mind I use OA13 balanced XLR outputs to my analogue active speakers? Or not?

The v4 will not be up-gradable of course, so do you think the v6 or v8 will be up-gradable to v9?
Or is it likely to be a completely new design? (Especially if it has to support the extra channels and processing power for Dolby Atmos etc.). In which case I assume Meridian will offer a trade in discount for existing v6 or v8 owners.

It may work out cheaper for me to buy a 2nd hand v6 or v8, and then trade it in, or have it upgraded, to a v9?

It is probably unfair that we are hoping for features of the new v9 to be similar to what the Trinnov offers, as the Trinnov costs roughly double the price of an 861.
Personally I would rather have a 861v9, even if it is 50% or more expensive than the v8.

I would require 3 x 4 channel Analogue XLR output cards to give an extra 4 channels for Dolby Atmos/ DTS:X height speakers etc.

I am guessing that Dolby Atmos/DTS:X support may have to wait till the v10, or be a future upgrade for the v9 owners.


861v4 LPSU, HD621, Sony HW40, PMC AML2, PMC IB2SA Centre - Triamped via Wyred4Sound MMC, PMC Wafer2 surr, PMC SB100 Sub & Wyred4Sound SX-1000, Dune HD MAX. Oppo BDP-105D Signature. Mede8ER 600X3D
Marantz CD94/CDA94. Rotel RB-1562, LG 65" OLED. IPL Acoustics STL5. Virgin Tivo. HifiMan HE-1000/Audio-GD M9. Stax SR-007/KGSSHV Carbon‏.
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#236038 - 2015-06-02 20:02 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2010-03-17
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Jimbo Offline
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Will the 861 support for MQA be an upgrade for v6 and v8, or will it only be available in the v9 I wonder?


861v4 LPSU, HD621, Sony HW40, PMC AML2, PMC IB2SA Centre - Triamped via Wyred4Sound MMC, PMC Wafer2 surr, PMC SB100 Sub & Wyred4Sound SX-1000, Dune HD MAX. Oppo BDP-105D Signature. Mede8ER 600X3D
Marantz CD94/CDA94. Rotel RB-1562, LG 65" OLED. IPL Acoustics STL5. Virgin Tivo. HifiMan HE-1000/Audio-GD M9. Stax SR-007/KGSSHV Carbon‏.
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#236039 - 2015-06-02 20:26 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Jimbo]
Registered: 2007-10-24
Posts: 215
Wayne Offline
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Wayne Offline
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I have been told that there will be an upgrade package for the v6, but do not know if you will have to upgrade to v8 first, then to v9 (if that is what it will be called) or if you can go straight from v6 to v9. This will encompass several features including MQA as well as additional channels but no details on whether this means Dolby Atmos, Aura 3D, DTS:X or any other compatibility. I do not have any other information on possible additional changes.

Regards,

Wayne


System 1: 861v6+ID40, HD621, DSP3200 x3, DSW, analogue surr, Bel Canto S300, Sony XBR-75Z9D, Oppo UDP-203, Kaleidescape
System 2: 808.3 upgraded to 808v6, MC200, DSP8000.2 with SE Upgrade
System 3: F80
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#236042 - 2015-06-02 20:57 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Wayne]
Registered: 2004-12-11
Posts: 201
Highrez Offline
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Loc: South Carolina, USA
If it is anything as like to the 808 it probably will need to have v8 to... like it is with the 808v6 it must start at v5 I would recon.


861v8, 808v6, 800v3 w/LPSU, HD621, MD600, DSP8000.2USE, DSP7200.2HCUSE, DSP7000 (rear)w/2 Revivers, DSP3300 (sides elevated), Seaton Submersive HP Subwoofer, Sim2 3000e, Oppo BDP-103, Stewart Film Screen JK Gray Hawk Grand Cinema R/S 115"Diag w/masking.
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#236045 - 2015-06-03 02:55 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Highrez]
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JOE-C Offline
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My thought would be that you would be able to upgrade directly to v9 from either v6 or v8 with the difference being the cost.


My M gear: 861v8 with ID41, 800v3, HD621, 8000.1(SEs),7200.1(SE),320s,3200s,5500s ,SW5500s ,MS200 (2nd zone),218.
Other: JVC RS-500 projector, Prismasonic HD-5000 anamorphic lens, Panasonic UB900, Oppo BDP-103D, QNAP TS-251 (M core and store).
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#236051 - 2015-06-03 07:42 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Highrez]
Registered: 2004-04-15
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VirusKiller Offline
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VirusKiller Offline
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Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,317
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Originally Posted By Highrez
If it is anything as like to the 808 it probably will need to have v8 to... like it is with the 808v6 it must start at v5 I would recon.
Actually, you will go directly from 808v3 or 808v5 to v6. The 808v3 to v5 upgrade package is being discontinued.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#236057 - 2015-06-03 13:11 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2010-12-09
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Ratbert Offline
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Originally Posted By VirusKiller
Actually, you will go directly from 808v3 or 808v5 to v6. The 808v3 to v5 upgrade package is being discontinued.
Joel

That would require two upgrade kits:

808v3 to v6 would need cards plus LPS

808v5 to v6 would just need the cards.

Cheers

Russ


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#236066 - 2015-06-03 13:48 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
Registered: 2004-04-15
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VirusKiller Offline
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That's true. I simplified matters (I have investigated this thoroughly with my dealer and Meridian).

In short:
  • Going from v3 to v6 sensibly does not require you to buy the v5 digital input card which has been removed from the v6.
  • The ID41 card is *optional*, because some 808v3 owners will already have made the upgrade.
  • The LPSU upgrade is also an option.
Clearly though, you need the cards, including ID41 if you don't already have it, and the LPSU upgrade.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#236074 - 2015-06-03 18:55 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2013-03-17
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Still-one Offline
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I may have posted this elsewhere here but at a recent MQA event I was told to get by 808 from v3 to v6 would require the following changes.

-New Digital In card
-New Digital out card
-New Analogue out card
-Update ID40 to ID41

-Update Switched Mode to Linear power supply (I had been previously told that here we cannot get the other updates without the new power supply, Not sure that is 100% accurate)

There will be a package available in August for this. I do not need to pay for v5 then v6.


Jim
Wilson Alexandrea X2 Series 2
D'Agostino Momentum M-400 Amps & Pre Amp
dCS Rossini & clock
SME 20/3 & Esoteric E-03
Transparent OPUS SC & Interconnects
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#236094 - 2015-06-04 00:04 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Wayne]
Registered: 2010-08-13
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GaryArthur Offline
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Originally Posted By Wayne
do not know if you will have to upgrade to v8 first, then to v9 (if that is what it will be called) or if you can go straight from v6 to v9. Regards,
Wayne
From what I have been told (from someone who should know) you will need to go from a v6 to v8 and then to the "v9".

Gary


My Kit: Trinnov Altitude 32,Oppo BDP 203, Sony 600es, Martin Logan Neoliths Mains with VTL Siegfried II's, ML CLX's, ML Renaissance, 5 ML Theaters,13 ML Vanquish, 6 ML Edges, 6 ML Axis' 8 Velodyne DD-18+'s, Pass Labs 600.8,Pass Labs 160.8, Pass labs 160.5, Bryston 14B-SST, 6B-SST,6 Bryston 9BSST^2's, 14' Stewart Screen, Berkely Alpha DAC RS
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#236098 - 2015-06-04 06:07 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: GaryArthur]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,317
VirusKiller Offline
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Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,317
Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
Meridian will sort something out w.r.t. v6 to v9 which does not involve purchasing redundant v8 cards. The specific update is not yet on the table, but neither is the 861v9 itself...


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#236141 - 2015-06-04 20:30 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2009-01-26
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TBNG Offline
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TBNG Offline
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Loc: Pennsylvania USA
I want the v9 to address DSD including multi-channel and to handle the highest sampling rates. These technologies are selling right now. I also want DSP to adjust height on center channel when using analog outputs, which Meridian does already with a digital speaker setup. ATMOS won't fly because it's too cumbersome for the home. It would have take hold before Meridian would touch it.

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#236143 - 2015-06-04 23:48 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: TBNG]
Registered: 2005-09-14
Posts: 839
Kal Rubinson Offline
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Kal Rubinson Offline
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Posts: 839
Loc: NYC/CT, USA
Originally Posted By TBNG
I want the v9 to address DSD including multi-channel and to handle the highest sampling rates.
This is exactly what I have been asking for and my 861v8 is waiting for.


Kal Rubinson
"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
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#236144 - 2015-06-05 03:40 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Kal Rubinson]
Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,287
Crion Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
Crion Offline
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Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,287
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Yes! Multichannel music Love for the 861v9! laugh

While DoP (native DSD over PCM) is being added why not support the complete multichannel part of the DoP specification in a Premium multichannel audio processor like the 861v9?

Interesting 2-page discusson on XMOS kits, multichannel USB and DoP DSD support

Next on the list was that multichannel USB port we talked about a decade ago, still valid today and tomorrow. smile


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#236149 - 2015-06-05 06:27 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2004-04-23
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Cliff. Offline
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Cliff. Offline
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Where's the MC music content coming from?


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#236153 - 2015-06-05 08:15 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,287
Crion Offline
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Crion Offline
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Google for samples and Kal probably have more suggestions.

https://www.nativedsd.com




Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#236171 - 2015-06-05 15:11 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2005-09-14
Posts: 839
Kal Rubinson Offline
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Kal Rubinson Offline
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Registered: 2005-09-14
Posts: 839
Loc: NYC/CT, USA
Originally Posted By Crion
Yes! Multichannel music Love for the 861v9! laugh

While DoP (native DSD over PCM) is being added why not support the complete multichannel part of the DoP specification in a Premium multichannel audio processor like the 861v9?
I have been railing about this for a while and not just to Meridian. If you look at all the mch AVRs and prepros on the market, I do not know of any that will do this via USB or ethernet even though they tout their streaming/networking talents. (I have been told that Pioneer AVRs can do this with ethernet but cannot confirm it with personal experience.)


Kal Rubinson
"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
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#237023 - 2015-06-22 09:05 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Kal Rubinson]
Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,287
Crion Offline
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Crion Offline
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Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,287
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden




In regards to the question of being crowded on analog outs, DB25 is pretty standard in the higher end pre/pro's that handle a larger amount of channels.


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
Edited by Crion; 2015-06-22 09:07.
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#237025 - 2015-06-22 10:37 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2004-04-23
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Cliff. Offline
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Cliff. Offline
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I'm not sure I like the HDMI inputs seemingly crammed next to the analogue outputs.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#237026 - 2015-06-22 10:40 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2007-09-06
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Yetis Offline
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Yetis Offline
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I think the real question is, where do you put 32 SpeakerLink connections? OK, 16 would suffice, but still. You have always been able to order a 861 sans analog outs, never without SpeakerLink.

I wish every pre/pro came with DB25, makes setting up so much easier and less issue over connection issues.


Primary: MD600, MS200 (SpeakerLink to AES), Trinnov ST-2, Ayre V6-xe, Salk SS8 3x LRC.
Secondary: MC600 (whole house).
Zone one: 568.2, G57, MS200, Spatial Hologram M2SE.
Zone 2-6 (Awaiting assignment).
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#237027 - 2015-06-22 11:53 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Yetis]
Registered: 2004-01-12
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Crion Offline
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Crion Offline
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Probably using stacked 2x6 or 2x8 RJ45 industry parts to get the desired density they deem necessary to compete with a proper immersive audio experience in a SpeakerLink based system.



Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#237028 - 2015-06-22 12:32 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
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Cliff. Offline
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Cliff. Offline
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Room for 16+ SpeakerLink + 16+ optional analogue? I doubt it somehow. I think it may be an either/or option but not both. Or another box of course.

Edit: It's also possible that it may not be deemed necessary to have separate SpeakerLink outputs for of each height effect channels and that some could be daisy chained.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#237029 - 2015-06-22 13:47 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
Registered: 2004-01-12
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Crion Offline
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Crion Offline
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Let's increase the density then shall we?

If we start using DB25 for analog out channels then one card can easily fit 2x DB25 = 16channels.

That means that if you just swap the XLR output cards for 2x2 DB25 then you could fit 32 analog channels output on the same real estate that you today get 8ch of XLR.

Likewise if you use denser RJ45 stacks and/or rearranged to standing 3x1 RJ45 stacks, then you could probably increase the channel output from one SL output card to 12 or 16 channels.



Now, how are we doing for density? smile


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#237030 - 2015-06-22 14:35 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2004-04-23
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Cliff. Offline
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Cliff. Offline
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Great! Can you put together one for me by the end of next week? smile

Seriously, I wonder if the design of the 861 will have to change to cope with heat generated by the extra processing power that will be needed? My Marantz 8802 certainly gets quite warm after a few hours and that's with a well ventilated top. The double skin of the 861 won't do so well and I hope this doesn't mean adding fans. The Datasat is a noisy beast from all accounts.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#237038 - 2015-06-22 15:54 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2011-02-02
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Hector Offline
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Hector Offline
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Interesting pics and suggestions Crion.

Could be some issues with the 3x1 stacks. Some high quality cables, with half decent retention clips, good screening and especially cable strain relief are unlikely to be compatible with this format.

Some "Mouth Organ" PCB mounting styles are dimensionally incompatible (gap between rows) with some RJ45 cable connectors. The examples shown by Crion look quite good though.

Screw locks on DB25 connectors are not very convenient unless you have easy access to the rear of your equipment rack.

Hector


AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1LR, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD.
DINING: MS600, AC200, DSP5200SLLR.
STUDY 504, SB Touch, 2x MD600, C15, 808.6, 5200SE, Mac & PC, Explorer v1, Prime+PS Grado GS1000i
HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys
A capella to Zydeco
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#237063 - 2015-06-22 23:54 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
Registered: 2007-09-06
Posts: 908
Yetis Offline
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Yetis Offline
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Registered: 2007-09-06
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Loc: New York, NY, USA
Originally Posted By Cliff.
Edit: It's also possible that it may not be deemed necessary to have separate SpeakerLink outputs for of each height effect channels and that some could be daisy chained.
Well, in reality, a Trinnov with 32 channels would likely never drive 32 separate speakers.

If it were possible for a M based DSP system, you would run a SpeakerLink to each driver. So I guess what you describe, might be the case. Makes me wonder if M ever considered a HT line of speakers that moved the processing to the processor and allowed for such a setup?


Primary: MD600, MS200 (SpeakerLink to AES), Trinnov ST-2, Ayre V6-xe, Salk SS8 3x LRC.
Secondary: MC600 (whole house).
Zone one: 568.2, G57, MS200, Spatial Hologram M2SE.
Zone 2-6 (Awaiting assignment).
Edited by Yetis; 2015-06-24 09:23. Edit Reason: Need to stop posting via iPhone
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#238827 - 2015-08-15 05:23 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Yetis]
Registered: 2014-02-06
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VLS Offline
Harmless
VLS Offline
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Registered: 2014-02-06
Posts: 12
Loc: Andalucia, Spain
Sorry, maybe I missed it. Are there any news regarding the new version? Will it come out in 2015? Thanks


_
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#238838 - 2015-08-15 15:43 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VLS]
Registered: 2009-03-21
Posts: 1,325
MJT5282 Offline
Working on the ultimate question
MJT5282 Offline
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Registered: 2009-03-21
Posts: 1,325
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consult your Meridian dealer to find out more information about the rollout dates of the 818v3 and 861v9. They have some more info.


Primary: 818v3+ID41, DSP8000SE, M SpeakerLink cabling, Sonos+96kHz Cullen, M Prime Headphone Amp, Senn HD700
HT: 861v8+ID41, HD621, DSP3300, DSP M6x4, DSW, STP Cat6 cabling,
Vac. Home: 861v4+ID40, HD621, 4xDSP3100, DSP3100HC
MDMS:NUC/ROCK+Freenas 11.1 ZFS file server
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#238845 - 2015-08-16 07:59 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: MJT5282]
Registered: 2008-02-29
Posts: 1,806
Asa Post Offline
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Asa Post Offline
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Registered: 2008-02-29
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Loc: Devon, UK
My dealer has no new information as of last week.

The new 818/808 was originally due at the end of March. Then August. So far nothing. This is all very disappointing and worrying.

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#238850 - 2015-08-16 10:19 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Meridian Oxford - Adam]
Registered: 2010-08-24
Posts: 592
Rolski Offline
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Rolski Offline
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Loc: Cologne, DE & Cheltenham, UK.
How much is it going to cost to upgrade it to 861v9 spec...? smirk


Meridian : 861v8 + ID41 + HD621 + 218, 2*SE-update DSP8.2K's, SE-update DSP7200HC. Roon.
TAG McLaren : DVD32R-PSM192, T32R+DAB, 100x5R:10. B&W : 4*SCMS. Logitech : Squeezebox Touches & Duets.
Sim2 HT380 DLP, Panasonic TX-P60ZT60E, SKY HD+, SlingBox HD Pro, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Oppo BDP-103EU.
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#238856 - 2015-08-16 11:29 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Rolski]
Registered: 2010-12-09
Posts: 3,365
Ratbert Offline
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Ratbert Offline
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Rumours suggested £3.5k, but more of a guess than anything else?

Russ


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#238893 - 2015-08-17 08:05 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Asa Post]
Registered: 2004-04-23
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Cliff. Offline
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Cliff. Offline
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Registered: 2004-04-23
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Is there any (reliable) information on the v9\10 spec?


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#238894 - 2015-08-17 08:06 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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Ratbert Offline
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No, just speculation.

Russ


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#238896 - 2015-08-17 08:15 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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Cliff. Offline
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Thought so.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#238926 - 2015-08-17 18:12 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Rolski]
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Yetis Offline
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Originally Posted By Rolski
How much is it going to cost to upgrade it to 861v9 spec...? smirk
What are 861.9 specs? Seems like some people are getting word of something?


Primary: MD600, MS200 (SpeakerLink to AES), Trinnov ST-2, Ayre V6-xe, Salk SS8 3x LRC.
Secondary: MC600 (whole house).
Zone one: 568.2, G57, MS200, Spatial Hologram M2SE.
Zone 2-6 (Awaiting assignment).
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#238931 - 2015-08-17 19:47 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Yetis]
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Carl Offline
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I've not heard anything about specs or prices.
I'd be surprised if anyone has.

Regards,
Carl


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
[In Reserve] C15, MD600 (2*3TB), TwinStore RM (2*2TB)
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#239011 - 2015-08-20 07:25 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: VirusKiller]
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GaryArthur Offline
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Originally Posted By VirusKiller
Knowing Meridian, it wouldn't surprise me if they offloaded (distributed) some of the processing to a new piece of kit that the 861 talked to.

A kind of HD621, but on the output side for those who want Atmos etc.

A single trunked input from 861, *lots* of channels out.

Wild speculation.


Not wild speculation but a very logical path. A new box. An HD621 on steroids if you will. The 861 users are already in tune with using a separate box for HDMI so why not a bigger box that replaces the HD621 and provides extra channels for at least 11.1. This also provides a more acceptable path for M's revenue stream. They will have revenue from the v9 upgrade and for those of us who choose to add height channels we can also buy the new box.

I like it and I'm in. I am already in construction to add height channels which will be completed by the end of this month. Like Cliff I have a Marantz 8802A coming next week to suffice in the interim. By the way I considered leaving M for Datasat. But I am above all an audiophile.

Gary


My Kit: Trinnov Altitude 32,Oppo BDP 203, Sony 600es, Martin Logan Neoliths Mains with VTL Siegfried II's, ML CLX's, ML Renaissance, 5 ML Theaters,13 ML Vanquish, 6 ML Edges, 6 ML Axis' 8 Velodyne DD-18+'s, Pass Labs 600.8,Pass Labs 160.8, Pass labs 160.5, Bryston 14B-SST, 6B-SST,6 Bryston 9BSST^2's, 14' Stewart Screen, Berkely Alpha DAC RS
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#239012 - 2015-08-20 08:36 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: GaryArthur]
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EllisDJ Offline
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Be interested to know thoughts on the Marantz 8802A when you have tested it for a bit?

I know this forum is very tight so a PM with details would be appreciated if that is preferred.

Thanks


861v4 LPSU, HD621, Bryston 9BSST
KEF Reference 3 and 2c, 2 X SVS SB13 ULTRA
Audio PC: JPLay, LPSU, JCAT, PPA Studio
Cables XLO Limited, Unlimited Edition and Signature
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#239029 - 2015-08-20 14:33 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: EllisDJ]
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Yetis Offline
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I wonder if the delay on the 861 was due to the delay in 4K standards. A lot going on there, and if we are correct that the 861.9 variant will include a much updated and expanded HD621. Then one will want to make sure they are compliant? Certainly doesn't explain the 818 delay, but just a thought..


Primary: MD600, MS200 (SpeakerLink to AES), Trinnov ST-2, Ayre V6-xe, Salk SS8 3x LRC.
Secondary: MC600 (whole house).
Zone one: 568.2, G57, MS200, Spatial Hologram M2SE.
Zone 2-6 (Awaiting assignment).
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#239030 - 2015-08-20 14:36 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: EllisDJ]
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Carl Offline
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Originally Posted By EllisDJ
Be interested to know thoughts on the Marantz 8802A when you have tested it for a bit?

I know this forum is very tight so a PM with details would be appreciated if that is preferred.

Thanks
Posting them in the "HiFi & HT Chat" forum area would be fine.

Regards,
Carl


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
[In Reserve] C15, MD600 (2*3TB), TwinStore RM (2*2TB)
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#239265 - 2015-08-26 16:49 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
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ScottD327 Offline
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The HD621 on steroids would have to be a processor as well since no Blu-ray player (yet) can decode Atmos to 9.1 or 11.1 PCM.


G61R, HD621, DSP5200 (4 - mains & surrounds), DSP5200HC (center), SW1600 (2 in L/R configuration), JVC DLA-x75r 3D projector, Stewart Firehawk 106" screen, Oppo BDP-103, Verizon Fios HD DVR, Xbox 360 Elite
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#239278 - 2015-08-27 02:31 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: ScottD327]
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GaryArthur Offline
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Originally Posted By ScottD327
The HD621 on steroids would have to be a processor as well since no Blu-ray player (yet) can decode Atmos to 9.1 or 11.1 PCM.
Yes you will need extra processing power. The current Dolby Atmos standard allows for up to 34 channels, 24 ear level and 10 height channels. Most of the units coming out seem to only do 11 or so channels such as the 8802A with its 7.1.4 capabilities. At this point the only processor that I know of that comes close to maxing out Dolby Atmos is the Trinnov Altitude 32 with its 32 channels and then coming in with a little less is the Datasat rs20i.

I am hoping that a new Meridian Atmos box + 861v9 will yield at least 17.1 channels. Dreaming? Perhaps. But I'm not giving up on M yet.

Gary


My Kit: Trinnov Altitude 32,Oppo BDP 203, Sony 600es, Martin Logan Neoliths Mains with VTL Siegfried II's, ML CLX's, ML Renaissance, 5 ML Theaters,13 ML Vanquish, 6 ML Edges, 6 ML Axis' 8 Velodyne DD-18+'s, Pass Labs 600.8,Pass Labs 160.8, Pass labs 160.5, Bryston 14B-SST, 6B-SST,6 Bryston 9BSST^2's, 14' Stewart Screen, Berkely Alpha DAC RS
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#239280 - 2015-08-27 06:48 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: GaryArthur]
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Cliff. Offline
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I think there have been three proposals as to how M could achieve an object-based audio system with height channels.

1. An updated HD621 (to HDMI 2.x; HDCP2.x) which passes bitstream to a greatly enhanced 861 which does all the processing and provide the additional channels. This would require a major redesign of the 861 to accommodate the extra hardware and maintain it at a workable operating temperature.

2. A greatly enhanced HD621 which does all the processing and provides the hardware for extra channels. This would require a major design of the HD621 and means to coordinate the channels between the two units.

3. A three box solution in which the HD621 is upgraded as in (1), the 861 pretty much stays as it and a third box is added to accommodative the extra channels for those who want them.

Time will tell if any the above comes to fruition. Personally, I’ll be surprised (pleasantly) if it happens in the v9 generation. My Marantz 8802A\861 solution is still working extremely well so I for one am happy to wait.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#239286 - 2015-08-27 10:52 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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Carl Offline
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Hi all,

There's been quite a lot of talk about Dolby Atmos, but from what I've read it seems that DTS:X might be a better option form home cinema setups.

DTS:X: What is it? How can you get it?

What do you guys think?

Regards,
Carl


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
[In Reserve] C15, MD600 (2*3TB), TwinStore RM (2*2TB)
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#239290 - 2015-08-27 12:05 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Carl]
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Cliff. Offline
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DTS:X certainly seems to be designed to allow more flexible speaker positioning than Atmos.

I'm keen to try Neural:X which is DTS's upsampling algorithm for standard DTS:HD etc. Dolby's version is really good but I'm hoping Neural:X will be even better given the it will be working on DTS's own source material for most BRs


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, Vero 4k, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude 32 (8-16) (+Roon), Trinnov Amplitude 8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) and REL Stentor III speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
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#239321 - 2015-08-27 22:44 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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GaryArthur Offline
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At CES I saw three demos. One each of Dolby Atmos, Auro 3D and DTS:X. I was extremely disappointed in the DTS:X demo. I believe they were not quite ready for prime time last January. There was no fluidity of movement in the sound just localized sound saying now I'm here oh no now I'm here behind you.

Dolby Atmos was fine but the Auro 3D just blew me away. I was talking to myself as I left the demo and was saying "That's a game changer". Eight months later I have grown to believe in the Dolby technology as best but Auro 3D is also in the game.

I'm currently adding height speakers to my theater and putting in 11 ceiling speakers that should give an excellent 10 speaker Atmos configuration as well as a pretty good Auro 3D presentation (in theory). This is why I want M to really come through on the v9 and height box. I should be up and running in about 3 or 4 weeks with the Marantz and will report back in the HiFi chat area.

Gary


My Kit: Trinnov Altitude 32,Oppo BDP 203, Sony 600es, Martin Logan Neoliths Mains with VTL Siegfried II's, ML CLX's, ML Renaissance, 5 ML Theaters,13 ML Vanquish, 6 ML Edges, 6 ML Axis' 8 Velodyne DD-18+'s, Pass Labs 600.8,Pass Labs 160.8, Pass labs 160.5, Bryston 14B-SST, 6B-SST,6 Bryston 9BSST^2's, 14' Stewart Screen, Berkely Alpha DAC RS
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#239324 - 2015-08-28 04:37 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: GaryArthur]
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CoolKish Offline
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There is no v9 only v10.. remember M is not early adopter and they have upgraded 861 v4-v6-v8. Since we want v9 today, I am guessing v10 will come out late next year.

Just wanted to spike the football now cool

grin


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#239365 - 2015-08-29 19:44 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: GaryArthur]
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prm1177 Offline
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Originally Posted By GaryArthur
Originally Posted By ScottD327
The HD621 on steroids would have to be a processor as well since no Blu-ray player (yet) can decode Atmos to 9.1 or 11.1 PCM.
Yes you will need extra processing power. The current Dolby Atmos standard allows for up to 34 channels, 24 ear level and 10 height channels. Most of the units coming out seem to only do 11 or so channels such as the 8802A with its 7.1.4 capabilities.
Gary
Atmos for home does not use real time rendering of sound objects as it does in the cinema. Home delivery requires a remix/downmix of all height channels into the 4 channels prescribed for home delivery. This necessitates an additional remix in the dubbing stages (which is one of the reasons you don't see many Atmos home releases right now, due to the added cost). 7.1.4 is the practical limit for now.


Meridian Advocate
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#242623 - 2015-11-12 09:28 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: CoolKish]
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Rolski Offline
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A bit quiet in here....
Any more news / rumour / (wild & unjustifiable) speculation about the 861v9 now that the v3.07 SE DSP speaker firmware is available & 818v3's are being shipped ?!


Meridian : 861v8 + ID41 + HD621 + 218, 2*SE-update DSP8.2K's, SE-update DSP7200HC. Roon.
TAG McLaren : DVD32R-PSM192, T32R+DAB, 100x5R:10. B&W : 4*SCMS. Logitech : Squeezebox Touches & Duets.
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#242624 - 2015-11-12 09:50 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Rolski]
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VirusKiller Offline
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No news here. I'd say wait for CES and, if it's not shown there, assume a 2017 release.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
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#246757 - 2016-02-09 19:00 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Cliff.]
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Jimbo Offline
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I suspect the 861 v9 or 10, will not have any HDMI inputs or outputs.
The video is removed at the HD621 and only Audio passed via MHR to the 861.

Logically there will need to be an updated HD621 which supports HDMI2.0a for full 4K and HDR/Dolby Vision pass-through to the output video device?

No doubt the new 861 will support MQA.

As for the new surround formats, and the extra channels required (at least 2); the HD621 does not decode bitstream, and only processes PCM?
DTS:X and Atmos are only contained in the bitstream.

So the HD621 will have to decode the DTS:X /Atmos and pass it as extra PCM channels via MMHR to the 861?


861v4 LPSU, HD621, Sony HW40, PMC AML2, PMC IB2SA Centre - Triamped via Wyred4Sound MMC, PMC Wafer2 surr, PMC SB100 Sub & Wyred4Sound SX-1000, Dune HD MAX. Oppo BDP-105D Signature. Mede8ER 600X3D
Marantz CD94/CDA94. Rotel RB-1562, LG 65" OLED. IPL Acoustics STL5. Virgin Tivo. HifiMan HE-1000/Audio-GD M9. Stax SR-007/KGSSHV Carbon‏.
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#275805 - 2018-05-07 01:06 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Jimbo]
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Jaapaap Offline
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Seems not much has happened in the last 2 years in 861 space, other than the UHD722 which added 4K to the combo.

Are we expected to move on to non-Meridian processors?


various components
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#275806 - 2018-05-07 02:38 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Jaapaap]
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Albert Offline
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Some might well.

I heard a few Casablanca 4A with D3 DAC cards lately, I was impressed by the SQ of CB4A, it sounds like a 861 but better in any aspects, not to mention Atmos and Dirac support.


HT: Audiocom Oppo203 signature with Vanity HD 861v8, DSP6Ks(LCR), DSP5200.1
Revel b112*2 b110*2 AntimodeX4 JVCx790
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#275808 - 2018-05-07 04:06 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Albert]
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Velcro22 Offline
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There is quote from Bob Stuart in a recent interview that might shed some light.

It is hardly surprising but definitely encouraging. (read glimmer of hope). The article is from Jim Austin from the May 2018 edition of Stereophile magazine. (MQA, DRM and other four-letter words, p49)

Austin is talking about some of the limitations of MQA regarding digital sound processing.
Quote:
Anyway, this later limitation is starting to disappear. Certain MQA-enabled digital loudspeakers can already combine MQA and DSP room correction, and apparently there’s more to come. “Room Correction-enabled [DAC] implementations are coming to market,” Bob Stuart told me in an email, “but done in a way that supports provenance and/or artist intention.” You can do it, or soon will be able to, but maybe not exactly the way you want to. We’ll see.

What I read in there (wishful) is that there still might be a future for room correction, potentially in a 861. Nothing said about processing but... it is a speculation thread after all….


Meridian 861v8, 800v4, MS600, M218, HD621, Oppo BDP-203, Sony VPL-VW100, Logitech Harmony, DSP8000.1SE, DSP7000C, DSP3100, DSP33 also some B&O.
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#275810 - 2018-05-07 08:23 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Jaapaap]
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Carl Offline
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Carl Offline


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Originally Posted By Jaapaap
Are we expected to move on to non-Meridian processors?
If you want Atmos / 3D Codecs then I believe then answer is yes as I don't think Meridian have the appetite to sink funds into that development stream.

I do think MQA support will come to the 861 complete with room correction that preserves the MQA content... when ... no idea.

I've been sitting on the fence with my 861 for way too long now... if Meridian stop investing then so do I.

Regards,
Carl


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
[In Reserve] C15, MD600 (2*3TB), TwinStore RM (2*2TB)
Edited by Carl; 2018-05-07 13:43. Edit Reason: Roon —> room
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#275814 - 2018-05-07 11:54 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Carl]
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ncpl Offline
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Roon Correction 😜

Freudian slip Carl ?


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#275815 - 2018-05-07 12:30 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: ncpl]
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VirusKiller Offline
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Originally Posted By ncpl
Roon Correction
"Like" grin


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I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#275816 - 2018-05-07 12:32 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Velcro22]
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Soundserge Offline
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I interpret that as Bob speaking as an MQA employee who is no longer a Meridian employee. He could be referring to any of MQA partners’ upcoming DACs.

Soundserge


MD600 (phasing out), Sonictransporter + Roon, 818v3, DSP 5200SEs, 218, DSP3200s
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#275817 - 2018-05-07 13:46 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: ncpl]
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Carl Offline
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Originally Posted By ncpl
Roon Correction 😜

Freudian slip Carl ?
I’ll put it down to muscle memory. LOL.


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
[In Reserve] C15, MD600 (2*3TB), TwinStore RM (2*2TB)
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#275837 - 2018-05-08 09:18 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Velcro22]
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3dit0r Offline
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I read that article too and thought of the 861. I think a v9 with MQA/MRC, etc. will appear, just a question of when.

Bearing in mind that Bob has a vested interest in Meridian, I'd be betting they have a head-start, even if a minor one, in implementing this. Meridian must be aware they are behind here now, and they must be aware people have/will jump ship. Surely they aren't about to let a market they once pioneered slip away without so much as a go at it?


818v3, DSP7200.2, Oppo BDP-95, Sony VPL-HW55ES projector, Kimber Mains Cables, Russ Andrews Torlyte Equipment Rack and Mains Filtration, GIK Acoustics Room Treatments
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#275867 - 2018-05-08 23:41 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: 3dit0r]
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Jeremy A-H Offline
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It would be horribly ironic if what is potentially their best invention ends up hurting them


Meridian 818v3, DSP7200SE's (upgraded), Roon
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#275871 - 2018-05-09 07:19 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Jeremy A-H]
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3dit0r Offline
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Agreed. I must say I’m surprised they’ve left it this long.


818v3, DSP7200.2, Oppo BDP-95, Sony VPL-HW55ES projector, Kimber Mains Cables, Russ Andrews Torlyte Equipment Rack and Mains Filtration, GIK Acoustics Room Treatments
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#275887 - 2018-05-09 15:09 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: 3dit0r]
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Ratbert Offline
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Would a v9 (essentially a v8) with MQA and MRC be enough in today’s marketplace or would you expect to see full Dolby Atmos and DTS-X support?


Always learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.
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#275888 - 2018-05-09 15:48 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Ratbert]
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Crion Offline
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Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Well you can call it 861v8.2 upgrade and it would be fair game. wink

The MQA card/system upgrade has been more than hinted. It actually sounded like it would get out a couple of times before. Apart from selling those cards, they will also encourage SE upgrades/speakers.

So in that sense to get 861v8 upto 24/192 engine standard as the 818v3 (room correction could be applied in higher bitdepths as well) and add an MQA input card which would let us do Trifield on MQA sources.

I actually think an 861v8.2 with 24/192 and MQA would sound terrific and a worthy upgrade step in real soundquality which we all crave.

That would also apart from the added interest in Meridian again, spark some much needed investments from 861 customers who do own several pairs of DSP speakers and have the potential to SE upgrade several pairs of speakers...

It is long overdue and Meridian I actually think it would spark more interaction with your customers again. Those general FB/twitter posts doesn't really count. Ask the question WHY people got interested and continued to invest in their Meridian setups and analyze why they haven't for some time. The answer might be you didn't give them a reason. MQA/24-192 engine is a good reason for the 861 owners. But don't let it come too late, keep up the interest in your brand, never stagnate.

In the meantime we're getting a Tesla to keep us busy. smile


Future 861 MQA/24-192 system upgrade owner!
DSP8000SE, DSP7200SEHC, DSP5200SE sides, DSP7200SE rears, 861v8/ID41, MC200, Sim2 HT380 T2 1080P, Stewart Cinecurve 2.35:1, XEIT CM-5E Anamorphic lens, Apple-TV 4K with nFuse 5, HDI Dune BD Prime 3.0 with Wireworld Platinum HDMI -> UHD722 -> Audioquest Diamond RJ45. Shunyata Sigma Digital@861v8.
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#275890 - 2018-05-09 16:28 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2012-04-17
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3dit0r Offline
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3dit0r Offline
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Registered: 2012-04-17
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Loc: South UK
+1

If the tech isn’t yet there for a full v9, surely a v8.2 is better than to be seen to be completely standing still, or sending signals that might be misunderstood as a complete abandonment of the product line?

Not completely 861 related, but as I’ve embarked on my yearly glance around to see if there’s a third partly solution for 2(.1) channel room correction compatible with DSPs, I’m asking myself again why Meridian don’t incorporate MRC into, say, the 818 or as a separate add-on box?


818v3, DSP7200.2, Oppo BDP-95, Sony VPL-HW55ES projector, Kimber Mains Cables, Russ Andrews Torlyte Equipment Rack and Mains Filtration, GIK Acoustics Room Treatments
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#275896 - 2018-05-10 00:34 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: 3dit0r]
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 154
Jeremy A-H Offline
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Jeremy A-H Offline
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Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 154
Loc: Hampshire, UK
I think the problem may have been that any room correction would invalidate the authentication in MQA.

Looking at the recent Roon announcement/release, it would appear a way to step around the issue is now available (partially decoded MQA without the authentication, where the renderer does the final unfolding regardless, but doesn’t show the authentication flag).

Ironically, perhaps, this doesn’t work for Meridian owners yet, as the 818 can’t fully decode partially decoded MQA.


Meridian 818v3, DSP7200SE's (upgraded), Roon
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#275906 - 2018-05-10 09:22 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Jeremy A-H]
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Posts: 1,750
3dit0r Offline
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3dit0r Offline
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Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 1,750
Loc: South UK
Jeremy,

Yes, this has just been confirmed on the Roon forum.

I don't think irony quite covers it, honestly, I kind of feel it's time for Meridian to get on with things a bit!


818v3, DSP7200.2, Oppo BDP-95, Sony VPL-HW55ES projector, Kimber Mains Cables, Russ Andrews Torlyte Equipment Rack and Mains Filtration, GIK Acoustics Room Treatments
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#275909 - 2018-05-10 13:24 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Jeremy A-H]
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,688
Carl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Carl Offline


President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,688
Loc: Central England, UK
Hi Jeremy,

You're on the money, but I just want to clear up some terms to aid other readers.

Originally Posted By Jeremy A-H
I think the problem may have been that any room correction would invalidate the authentication in MQA.
Not just authentication it would also destroy the encapsulated rendering information which is required to perform the subsequent unfolding during rendering process.

Originally Posted By Jeremy A-H
Looking at the recent Roon announcement/release, it would appear a way to step around the issue is now available (partially decoded MQA without the authentication, where the renderer does the final unfolding regardless, but doesn’t show the authentication flag).
Roon fully decodes (decoding is the first unfold to 2x rate). However, when Roon DSP is required, the rendering information (under the noise floor) is extracted from the MQA signal, the MQA signal is then sent though the DSP and then post DSP Roon reinsert the MQA rendering information ... so it is intact when the signal arrives at the renderer.

Originally Posted By Jeremy A-H
..., this doesn’t work for Meridian owners yet, as the 818 can’t fully decode partially decoded MQA.
That should read "can't render decoded MQA from an external source".

Trust that make sense.

Regards,
Carl


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
[In Reserve] C15, MD600 (2*3TB), TwinStore RM (2*2TB)
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#275910 - 2018-05-10 14:00 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Carl]
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Posts: 1,750
3dit0r Offline
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3dit0r Offline
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Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 1,750
Loc: South UK
Thanks for clarification, Carl, interesting.

The million dollar question - does this mean anything in terms of a possible v9 with MQA...?


818v3, DSP7200.2, Oppo BDP-95, Sony VPL-HW55ES projector, Kimber Mains Cables, Russ Andrews Torlyte Equipment Rack and Mains Filtration, GIK Acoustics Room Treatments
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#275912 - 2018-05-10 15:07 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: 3dit0r]
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,688
Carl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Carl Offline


President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,688
Loc: Central England, UK
Hi,

I posted on that earlier; yes it possible to have not only 2 channel MQA but also multi-channel MQA support in the long overdue v9.
"When?" No idea frown

Regards,
Carl


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
[In Reserve] C15, MD600 (2*3TB), TwinStore RM (2*2TB)
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#275916 - 2018-05-10 16:47 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Carl]
Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 1,750
3dit0r Offline
Knows where his towel is
3dit0r Offline
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Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 1,750
Loc: South UK
Sorry I should have backtracked on the thread.

Well, hopefully sooner rather than later, then...


818v3, DSP7200.2, Oppo BDP-95, Sony VPL-HW55ES projector, Kimber Mains Cables, Russ Andrews Torlyte Equipment Rack and Mains Filtration, GIK Acoustics Room Treatments
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#275921 - 2018-05-10 22:20 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: 3dit0r]
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,688
Carl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Carl Offline


President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 7,688
Loc: Central England, UK
Let’s hope so.


861v6+ID40, HD621, 8000.2, 7200HC, 7200, SKYQ Silver, PS3, PDP-LX6090, QNAP TS870-Pro (8*6TB), Roon, iPadAir2.
[In Reserve] C15, MD600 (2*3TB), TwinStore RM (2*2TB)
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#275990 - 2018-05-13 00:33 Re: 861v9 speculation thread [Re: Carl]
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 154
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 154
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Originally Posted By Carl
I just want to clear up some terms to aid other readers
Agreed, my response wasn’t as clear or detailed as yours.


Meridian 818v3, DSP7200SE's (upgraded), Roon
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