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#205439 - 2014-01-23 04:15 Re: Is Synchronize Linked Zones Tightly an Imperfect Feature? [Re: ncpl]
Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,266
Hector Online content
Senior Shouting Officer
Hector Online content
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,266
Loc: Midlands, UK
Thanks Nick
My sanity is restored. Rooms are adjacent and tightly linked is IMO better as I take my daily exercise from breakfast to the study, study to lunch etc..
I will keep it enabled as with the vast majority of stored recordings it is not an issue.
Thanks again David


AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1LR, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD.
DINING: MS600, AC200, DSP5200SLLR.
STUDY 504, SB Touch, 2x MD600, C15, 808.6, 5200SE, Mac & PC, Explorer v1, Prime+PS Grado GS1000i
HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys
A capella to Zydeco
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#209181 - 2014-03-21 04:47 Re: Is Synchronize Linked Zones Tightly an Imperfect Feature? [Re: Hector]
Registered: 2004-08-12
Posts: 202
Anthony-Howard Online content
Hitchhiker
Anthony-Howard Online content
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2004-08-12
Posts: 202
Loc: West Midlands, UK
Hi,

Did you ever get this working for all your files? Only working for the vast majority does not inspire me with too much confidence I am afraid!

Cheers,

Tony.


Sources: MS600, Oppo UHD-203, HTPC, Roon
Processors: G61RSL, HD621, Lumagen 4240
Outputs: DSP5200SE FL/C/FR, DSP5200VC C, DSP3200 SL/SR/RL/RR, DSWx2, Epson TW-9300.
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#209204 - 2014-03-21 17:56 Re: Is Synchronize Linked Zones Tightly an Imperfect Feature? [Re: Anthony-Howard]
Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,266
Hector Online content
Senior Shouting Officer
Hector Online content
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,266
Loc: Midlands, UK
Hi Tony
Unfortunately not. But it is still a very useful feature and I will continue to use it as it works perfectly on all but a handful of files/FLAC rips.
To not use it is far more disconcerting (zone echo effect) than the odd clip when there is no silent gap between tracks. It is easy to disable on MAC or C15 when playing a known affected selection.
Hector


AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1LR, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD.
DINING: MS600, AC200, DSP5200SLLR.
STUDY 504, SB Touch, 2x MD600, C15, 808.6, 5200SE, Mac & PC, Explorer v1, Prime+PS Grado GS1000i
HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys
A capella to Zydeco
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#209218 - 2014-03-21 22:34 Re: Is Synchronize Linked Zones Tightly an Imperfect Feature? [Re: Hector]
Registered: 2004-08-12
Posts: 202
Anthony-Howard Online content
Hitchhiker
Anthony-Howard Online content
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2004-08-12
Posts: 202
Loc: West Midlands, UK
Thanks for your response.

I am currently looking into a whole house solution and had bought Sooloos as a single zone with this expansion in mind. I more than agree that not only is it a useful function but for me is a mandatory one in a multi-zone solution.

Unfortunately the uncertainty of a broken feature does not sit well unless I know exactly which rips it will not work on. From where I am sitting, and there is no way of knowing how representative your collection is to mine, all of my tracks could be affected or none of them could be. The reality is likely to be somewhere in between but without buying into extra Sooloos zones how will I know?

I am sad to say that this is probably the final nail in the coffin for Sooloos in my house. This combined with all the other Sooloos issues outweighs the superior sound quality that I currently enjoy. Even if there was likely to be a fix Meridian are unlikely to bother to tell anyone until the fix is released and judging by how slow they seem to move with fixes I doubt that their timelines would exactly align with my expectations of when I would like a multi-room solution.

Sadly I now have a choice as to whether Sooloos has a place in my more critical listening zone or if the convenience of integration with the rest of the house precludes me from keeping it at all.

Maybe I am being unfair and without hearing the problem for myself it is difficult to say but other systems seem to have this working fine and without all the other problems of Sooloos too.

Cheers,

Tony.


Sources: MS600, Oppo UHD-203, HTPC, Roon
Processors: G61RSL, HD621, Lumagen 4240
Outputs: DSP5200SE FL/C/FR, DSP5200VC C, DSP3200 SL/SR/RL/RR, DSWx2, Epson TW-9300.
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#209220 - 2014-03-21 23:17 Re: Is Synchronize Linked Zones Tightly an Imperfect Feature? [Re: Anthony-Howard]
Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,266
Hector Online content
Senior Shouting Officer
Hector Online content
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,266
Loc: Midlands, UK
Hi Tony
Sooloos IMO is without doubt the best available solution. Please do not make your final decision based upon such a IMHO very trivial point. The 99%+ points far outweigh this very minor negative. Meridian have a great track record of addressing issues of this nature and I confidently believe this will be resolved in the future.
I do not believe our libraries will be that much different as to make you so nervous.
I think it might be good for you to PM me if you wish to discuss in more detail.
"Keep the Faith", you will not be disappointed in the long term.
Regards Hector


AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1LR, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD.
DINING: MS600, AC200, DSP5200SLLR.
STUDY 504, SB Touch, 2x MD600, C15, 808.6, 5200SE, Mac & PC, Explorer v1, Prime+PS Grado GS1000i
HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys
A capella to Zydeco
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#209223 - 2014-03-21 23:35 Re: Is Synchronize Linked Zones Tightly an Imperfect Feature? [Re: Hector]
Registered: 2004-08-12
Posts: 202
Anthony-Howard Online content
Hitchhiker
Anthony-Howard Online content
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2004-08-12
Posts: 202
Loc: West Midlands, UK
Hector,

Thanks for your response and encouragement.

Unfortunately my disillusion with Sooloos, as a current Sooloos owner, come not just from this issue but from a myriad of issues, most of which are admittedly quite simple, and a perceived lack of development. I have to disagree with Meridians track record. Most of these issues have remained unresolved for a considerable length of time if indeed they ever worked in the first place. The lack of development is a concern as Meridian remain their air of stoicism and silence and seemingly are unable to keep the agility required to compete with a rapidly evolving streaming service. Neither of which should be a problem in a hardware world but I am afraid to say that the world of audio streaming is a different one and Meridian seem to not quite have adapted to that.

I could list the issues but it would seem futile as searches of this forum will provide the answers but for me all Meridian has going for it is sound quality and a nice interface. Even the much vaunted swim that I must confess to not using a great deal seems compromised by their lack of development. Unfortunately the niggles in what is a premium priced system are starting to outweigh these positives.

Maybe I am being overly harsh and unfair but their track record does not speak to me as positively as it does to you. As for keeping the faith well why should I? What has Meridian done to earn that faith? If the future is within say 6 months than fine but my instinct is telling me that it could be years. Why should I wait those 6 months? I must say that the silence from Meridian and lack of progress is very telling. I am sorry but I believe that Faith is for religion not for what I choose to spend my hard earned money on.

I do appreciate the input and hope that your issue, however minor, is resolved sooner rather than later.

Cheers,

Tony.


Sources: MS600, Oppo UHD-203, HTPC, Roon
Processors: G61RSL, HD621, Lumagen 4240
Outputs: DSP5200SE FL/C/FR, DSP5200VC C, DSP3200 SL/SR/RL/RR, DSWx2, Epson TW-9300.
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#209226 - 2014-03-22 00:04 Re: Is Synchronize Linked Zones Tightly an Imperfect Feature? [Re: Anthony-Howard]
Registered: 2001-01-08
Posts: 4,122
Ronnie Offline
Vogon Civil Servant
Ronnie Offline
Vogon Civil Servant

Registered: 2001-01-08
Posts: 4,122
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Anthony-Howard
all Meridian has going for it is sound quality and a nice interface
Due diligence would be a good starting point before making such a statement smile

As a Sonos user since its inception in 2005 as well as having a few Squeezbox zones... as well as dabbling in other Streaming solutions down thru the years... I can tell you from much experience that Sound Quality and User Interface are the 2 areas that are used by most Users almost 99% of the time that they are using a Streaming solution... and these two areas are EXACTLY the areas that ALL the other solutions fall down on in comparison to Sooloos.

So, while the Import routines or Zone Syncing in other products MAY be better, I for one would not sacrifice the 99 hours that I spend Choosing and Listening to Music to gain a possible better experience in the 1 Hour that I spend Importing or listening across multiple Zones.

On a Technical note, I will also mention that in attempting to achieve perfect Zone Syncing, Sound Quality is also likely is also likely to be compromised... which makes sense when one thinks about how Zone Syncing is achieved on other systems.


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#209229 - 2014-03-22 00:29 Re: Is Synchronize Linked Zones Tightly an Imperfect Feature? [Re: Ronnie]
Registered: 2001-05-23
Posts: 2,719
Gianni Online content
Great Green Arkleseizure
Gianni Online content
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2001-05-23
Posts: 2,719
Loc: North London, United Kingdom
Given the asynchronous nature of ethernet, does not zone synching inevitably mean the introduction of jitter (or at least jitter-like behaviour) at the audio end-points? This would be a common problem to all streaming platforms, not just Sooloos, as it is a 'feature' of the communications technology. And I suggest that the 'jitter' would increase exponentially with the number of end-points. The use of intermediate switches and power-over-ethernet solutions, each with their own latency, would likely compromise the sound quality further.

I've thought about this further. Suppose those zones are supported by multi-channel processors with different latencies, speaker delays, lip-sync settings, etc. And then add in variable latencies depending on what s/w is loaded in the speakers and whether EBA is active or not and I cannot see how zone synching can ever work perfectly or even inaudibly except in the most simple cases of two or three two-channel systems running off one network with a common switch and carrying no other traffic over the network.


Wonderful perfect quadraphonic sound with distortion levels so low as to make a brave man weep smile
Edited by Gianni; 2014-03-22 00:55. Edit Reason: Further thoughts
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#209233 - 2014-03-22 01:09 Re: Is Synchronize Linked Zones Tightly an Imperfect Feature? [Re: Gianni]
Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,469
ncpl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ncpl Offline

President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,469
Loc: Surrey, UK
Gianni, indeed. That is why the Sooloos solution to keep zones tightly together (for those that can tell the difference) is to calibrate on the start time of each track...hence the tiny pause in playback if there is no silence between tracks. I don't recall either Sonos or Squeeze offering a similar feature.

If a glass is so clearly half empty for some users then it perhaps makes no difference cry


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#209237 - 2014-03-22 01:41 Re: Is Synchronize Linked Zones Tightly an Imperfect Feature? [Re: ncpl]
Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,266
Hector Online content
Senior Shouting Officer
Hector Online content
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,266
Loc: Midlands, UK
My glass is full, Ned Pinot Grigio + Sooloos Rosanne Cash "The River and The Thread" laugh .
All I need now is a MS200 to test Gianni's 3 zone theory on one network.
I have no doubt that he is right.
Tony please think again.
Hector


AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1LR, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD.
DINING: MS600, AC200, DSP5200SLLR.
STUDY 504, SB Touch, 2x MD600, C15, 808.6, 5200SE, Mac & PC, Explorer v1, Prime+PS Grado GS1000i
HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys
A capella to Zydeco
Edited by Hector; 2014-03-22 01:42.
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#209240 - 2014-03-22 02:24 Re: Is Synchronize Linked Zones Tightly an Imperfect Feature? [Re: Gianni]
Registered: 2001-01-08
Posts: 4,122
Ronnie Offline
Vogon Civil Servant
Ronnie Offline
Vogon Civil Servant

Registered: 2001-01-08
Posts: 4,122
Loc: UK
Hi Gianni / Nick
For Zone Syncing on Sooloos, it's also important to keep in mind that the network protocol used is UDP rather than the TCP that is used by most all other Streaming solution. In essence, this means that the Data is 'broadcast" from the Core to the End-points, and that little to no re-buffering of data takes place, as there might be with TCP Handshaking in play. This difference is hand-shaking can have an impact on the performance with multiple Zones

Sonos actually has (IMHO) the most 'clever" zone syncing mechanism. When the System is set up, you can use a diagnostic page to determine how each of the Sonos Zoneplayers 'see' each other on the proprietary Sonos Mesh Network.

This "Topography" knowledge is used by the Sonos system so that the Music File is sent to the Zone nearest to the 'epicentre' of the Group you've created, with the data then sent over the Sonos Mesh network to the other players that can be seen by the 'epicentre' zone

The result is that the Music appears to be in Sync as you walk from one room to another, but the combination of the Sonos Mesh network, the fact that players "know" where the others are within the Mesh network, plus another few proprietary Sonos tweaks means that Sonos (in the many comparison tests performed down thru the years) has always seen Sonos Multi-Zone performance to outperform the other solutions out there for keeping Rooms in play sync

Having said the above though, I firmly believe that Optimal Sound Quality and Mutli-Zone syncing are almost mutually exclusive. Sooloos Multi-Zone is a nice feature to have for non-critical times like family listening or parties etc., but not necessarily for critical listening occasions


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#209243 - 2014-03-22 03:15 Re: Is Synchronize Linked Zones Tightly an Imperfect Feature? [Re: Ronnie]
Registered: 2004-08-12
Posts: 202
Anthony-Howard Online content
Hitchhiker
Anthony-Howard Online content
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2004-08-12
Posts: 202
Loc: West Midlands, UK
Thanks for all the responses guys.

I have done my due dilligence thanks but please keep in mind that other peoples priorities and requirements may be different before making such a statement!

I completely agree that sound quality and interface are definitely the most important issues in a streaming system hence why I purchased Sooloos to begin with. However how many niggles, quirks and issues before they start to get over shadowed and more importantly at what cost? Most of my listening in a multi-zone setup will be across multiple rooms where volume normalisation would be nice, zones would need to be synchronised and I would like not to have to rip my music, groom the metadata and then import into Sooloos only to have to waste time editing the metadata again. The bulk of listening would be non-critical listening. I still have the Sooloos zone for critical listening and am undecided what to do with it but it certainly excels on sound quality and is above average on the interface. I do feel however that a multi-zone whole house solution for non-critical listening is not where Sooloos strengths lie. Especially at the cost. I could forgive the cost if the rest of the system were as polished as the sound quality. Interface foibles aside I still think that not being able to turn off the whole system from Sooloos is damning.

I take issue that synchronisation should come with an expected loss in sound quality and technical innaccuracies about the networking side of things do not help to convince me at all. The simple fact is that other cheaper systems can do it and Sooloos is supposed to be able to do it but apparently it doesn't do it as well. Technical differences aside as a consumer I don't care, I paid my money for a feature and it seemingly does not work correctly now I am thinking of using it. As stated it is non critical listening so overall sound quality is not important but the feature has to work correctly.

Perhaps I am overstating the issue. Maybe it wouldn't bother me but how will I know for sure without living with several zones for a while? This will entail a sizeable investment and commitment which all things considered I don't think that I am ready to make given the current state of the ecosystem.

Ultimately I am trying to establish exactly what the practical effect of this problem is. How widespread it is and how much of an issue it is in reality. To mind my mind clipping can be potentially a nasty artifact and whilst does arguably diminsh overall sound quality strays more into the territory of a fault than anything. I think perhaps I need a more thorough understanding of what the problem is. It may not be an issue for me at all.

As for the feature not working correctly, and clipping certainly sounds like it isn't, I don't think there is any mileage discussing the how and why, the current state is either acceptable or it is not. Any issues should I feel it is not performing as the product I bought I will take up with my dealer if appropriate.

Once again thanks for all the input so far.

Cheers,

Tony.


Sources: MS600, Oppo UHD-203, HTPC, Roon
Processors: G61RSL, HD621, Lumagen 4240
Outputs: DSP5200SE FL/C/FR, DSP5200VC C, DSP3200 SL/SR/RL/RR, DSWx2, Epson TW-9300.
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