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#14728 - 2003-11-25 14:35 Re: 861.3 -> 861.4 Upgrade ---- Should I?
Registered: 2006-06-23
Posts: 1,688
Mark_H Offline
Knows where his towel is
Mark_H Offline
Knows where his towel is

Registered: 2006-06-23
Posts: 1,688
Loc: South West, UK
I'm using an 800 to feed the TCS2 the 48Khz digital stream. The TCS2 processes and upsamples to 96/24 and feeds my DSP (5500/D2500) speakers. MHR is not used.

Mark.

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#14729 - 2003-11-25 15:29 Re: 861.3 -> 861.4 Upgrade ---- Should I?
Registered: 2003-08-01
Posts: 982
Mudge Offline
Pan-dimensional being
Mudge Offline
Pan-dimensional being

Registered: 2003-08-01
Posts: 982
Loc: Surrey Hills, UK
Did you really bin your 861 as you were threatening to?


Mark
G68, baby Genelecs, Humax Foxsat, Oppo+Vanity93, Toshiba HD-A35, Pioneer CLD-925 + Meridian 519, various other random bits and bobs
Got a black G08.2 you want to sell?
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#14730 - 2003-11-25 16:29 Re: 861.3 -> 861.4 Upgrade ---- Should I?
Registered: 2006-06-23
Posts: 1,688
Mark_H Offline
Knows where his towel is
Mark_H Offline
Knows where his towel is

Registered: 2006-06-23
Posts: 1,688
Loc: South West, UK
My 861 is boxed away now and will be on spares duty should the TCS2 fail.

Mark

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#14731 - 2003-11-25 16:45 Re: 861.3 -> 861.4 Upgrade ---- Should I?
Registered: 2002-02-04
Posts: 1,227
MrDoody Offline
Pan-dimensional being
MrDoody Offline
Pan-dimensional being

Registered: 2002-02-04
Posts: 1,227
Loc: Newton, MA, USA
so 96/24 M speakers will accept 96/24 regardless of whether it's MHR'd or not. interesting...

doody.

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#14732 - 2003-11-25 16:50 Re: 861.3 -> 861.4 Upgrade ---- Should I?
Registered: 2006-06-23
Posts: 1,688
Mark_H Offline
Knows where his towel is
Mark_H Offline
Knows where his towel is

Registered: 2006-06-23
Posts: 1,688
Loc: South West, UK
Seems so. I'd previously connected my TacT 2.2X to check it would handle 96/24 before committing to the TCS2...

Mark

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#14733 - 2003-11-25 17:39 Re: 861.3 -> 861.4 Upgrade ---- Should I?
Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,456
ncpl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ncpl Offline

President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,456
Loc: Surrey, UK
Is there still a TacT website ? www.Tactaudio.com is returning blank for me although it's listed in google.

tia

Nick


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#14734 - 2003-11-25 17:52 Re: 861.3 -> 861.4 Upgrade ---- Should I?
Registered: 2003-03-18
Posts: 339
ianh64 Offline
Hitchhiker
ianh64 Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2003-03-18
Posts: 339
Loc: UK
Link works fine here...

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#14735 - 2003-11-26 00:36 Re: 861.3 -> 861.4 Upgrade ---- Should I?
Registered: 2000-05-29
Posts: 2,379
JerryL Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
JerryL Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2000-05-29
Posts: 2,379
Loc: NYC Metro Area, USA
Mark,
Thats great to know. Thanks. I would really like to get your thoughts on the differences (pro and con) between the Tact and Meridian gear.


Best regards,
Jerry
Main System: 861v6, DSP8000s in corners, DSP7000s Center and Sides, 1-9 humans.
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#14736 - 2003-11-26 10:30 Re: 861.3 -> 861.4 Upgrade ---- Should I?
Registered: 2006-06-23
Posts: 1,688
Mark_H Offline
Knows where his towel is
Mark_H Offline
Knows where his towel is

Registered: 2006-06-23
Posts: 1,688
Loc: South West, UK
JerryL,

Firstly, I own an 861v2 so cannot make comparisons between the room correction systems, however, regardless of what Meridian say on the subject of why their approach is enough, the TacT solution is far advanced.

The 861 offers *many* features which are unavailable on the TCS2, DSP modes, card slots, full resolution DVD-A, etc. However, in my system I only use the 861 with DVD/DVHS and don't make use of any other options. If I did, dropping the 861 would perhaps have been harder.

The TacT website doesn't yet have info on the TCS2 (I guess they're doing a limited release to begin with) but the unit is essentially the same as the TCS1, but with better components, so the info on the TCS1 on their site should give a good idea of the options available with the TCS2.

My system is 5 x DSP5500 and 2 x D2500. Everything was installed and setup by Meridian techs. The 3 front speakers are behind a perforated screen and the 2 rear are behind acousticly transparent fabric. The subs sit at the front between the 3 front speakers and are run in mono mode.

The room is something like 18' x 15' x 10'.

The results were always good, but the subs had a tendancy to overwhelm the room due to room interaction and I was forever adjusting LFE/bass settings. The room is also acoustically treated, probably too much, and treble tended to suffer due to over-damping.

The difference between the perforated screen and the acoustic material meant that the front/rear speakers always had a slightly different timbre, even with THX mode compensating.

The speaker distance measurements were always an approximatation because the Meridian software only works to 6" or 1' steps (I don't recall the exact number) and as a result the surround soundstage was always slightly unbalanced. Not that I really noticed this until the TCS2 was installed.

The TCS2 room-correction measures all speakers and subs across the 20-20Khz range and takes readings for frequency and impulse at each Hz. This allows the system to (if you desire) totally flatten the response curve and perfectly integrate the subs with the mains. Importantly, it also knows the exact distance of each speaker cone from the listening position and precisely compensates in the time domain (unlike Meridians 6"/1' steps).

The bass-management allows you to use lo/hi-pass filters (or none at all) and mix *any* speaker into *any* other speaker; typically you might mix the front 3 speakers low frequencies onto the subs.

For the target curve, I opted for the THX re-equalisation curve, used to compensate for Theatre->DVD audio mastering. I programmed the system using this curve. I also used bass-management to mix all sub-50Hz information from the mains into the subs to reinforce the bass.

The results:

Most noticable at first is that the bass is back and is powerful but *never* overwhelms the room... the room-correction has compensated for the boosts/dips caused by the room. The bass is also seemlessly integrated with the mains and sounds very natural. I understand that this is what the Meridian solution offers.

However, the TCS2 goes further. By applying full-frequency target curves to all speakers I have been able to compensate for the differing materials in front of the speakers and now all speakers are timbre matched across the entire frequency range. The result is a seamless integration of sound... very noticable in speaker to speaker transitions, ie cars moving across the front speakears or 'planes flying from rear to front.

Because the TCS2 does time correction, all speakers are now *precisley* equidistant from the listening position and the result is more coherent soundstage; I don't have a centre rear, for instance, and yet sounds now come from centre rear whereas previously they may have been skewed slightly right due to imprecise distance measurements.

Finally, lip sync. The Meridian offers lipsync in steps of .5ms - the TCS2 offers steps of .01ms. I'm very sensitive to lipsync issues and have found that I can fine-tune much more accurately with the TCS2 than the Meridian.

So, as previouly stated, the difference between the TCS2 and the 861v2, for my application, is hugely in favour of the TCS2. No doubt the 861v4 will take some steps in the right direction but IMO the Meridian room-correction solution isn't complete enough and the TCS2 offers important advantages that have clearly audible benefits.

The TCS2 offers 10 programmable corrections, so you could create a DD mode, a DTS mode, a mode for badly mastered DVDs with too much bass or bad lipsync, etc...

The unit can be controlled via RS232 for integration into home automation systems (I use Crestron).

If you have any specific questions I will try to answer. Feel free to email directly.

Mark.

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#14737 - 2003-11-26 10:59 Re: 861.3 -> 861.4 Upgrade ---- Should I?
Registered: 2003-03-18
Posts: 339
ianh64 Offline
Hitchhiker
ianh64 Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2003-03-18
Posts: 339
Loc: UK
If you measure speaker distances to 1" resolution, isn't the sweet spot too focused? The moment you tilt your head, all the measurements would be out. Also, what happens if two of you are listening?

-Ian

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#14738 - 2003-11-26 12:03 Re: 861.3 -> 861.4 Upgrade ---- Should I?
Registered: 2002-02-04
Posts: 1,227
MrDoody Offline
Pan-dimensional being
MrDoody Offline
Pan-dimensional being

Registered: 2002-02-04
Posts: 1,227
Loc: Newton, MA, USA
i too wish lipsync were available in better than 0.5ms increments. this should be purely a software fix, right? hey guys! give us 1 ms please!

doody.

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#14739 - 2003-11-26 13:30 Re: 861.3 -> 861.4 Upgrade ---- Should I?
Registered: 2000-05-29
Posts: 2,379
JerryL Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
JerryL Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2000-05-29
Posts: 2,379
Loc: NYC Metro Area, USA
Mark,
thank you for the write up. It seems to me you found exactly what you are looking for. The Tact sounds like its very powerful and flexible. Before M announced V3&V4 I was looking at the Tact, but decided to stay where I trusted until I saw what the upgrades brought and I dont have the same issues you do.

Whats interesting is I have the same issue with lip sync- but perhaps not as strong as you. I find I can generally get it right, but once in a while Ill notice its a little bit off. I wonder if M could make a software change to give us finer lip sync control.

I wonder if the M subs have location compensation built in- for example in the digital speakers I have I can tell them they are either "free standing, boundry, corner, sub 1, sub 2, etc". If the subs have some kind of compensation it might be worth it to experiment. On the other hand, since the techs from M set them up, you could assume that they did this- but you know what they say about assuming.

Thanks again for the writeup. I always like to know what other options are out there and how they perform. Congrats on a great system!


Best regards,
Jerry
Main System: 861v6, DSP8000s in corners, DSP7000s Center and Sides, 1-9 humans.
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