How Much Will Roon Cost?

Posted by: Ratbert

How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-17 21:07

Originally Posted By: AltusLiceor
Anyone know how much Roon will cost? Are we are the JRiver end of the spectrum?
Suggested around 100 per year but nothing confirmed?

Russ
Posted by: Meridialien

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-17 21:47

Ha!Ha!

It'll be the shortest-lived product launch/crash if that's the true cost. That's almost half a year of Tidal and they supply the music too!

~M~
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-17 21:52

M

Sooloos 3 was apparently always going to be a subscription model, I guess the cost would have been similar?

Russ
Posted by: GMT

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-17 22:22

Originally Posted By: Meridialien
It'll be the shortest-lived product launch/crash if that's the true cost. That's almost half a year of Tidal and they supply the music too!
New Roon hardware + 5 years of subscription = less then entry level Sooloos Core 2nd hand. It works out at better value if you cost in 2 more endpoints.

Cheers
Tom
Posted by: ChrisLayerUK

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-17 22:26

And that's why. Meridians 'Standard' sooloos interface will survive.

1. It works well and is easy to use

2. No subscription fees, a turnkey solution with Tidal and MQA integration.

Now if you want more and are computer literate, Roon is your next option, only Meridian don't have to do all the upkeep and development that will be expected for 100 a year (ish) subscription.

Makes sense to me. Chris smile
Posted by: GMT

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-17 23:42

OK - But say :

1) Roon is easy to use

2) There is an option to buy a lifetime subscription (there is) and its sold on pre-configured equipment (not yet!)

Lots of us moved from Meridian CD players to Squeezebox before Sooloos. This situation reminds me of the operating system OS/2 which was originally developed by Microsoft and IBM.

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
The collaboration between IBM and Microsoft unravelled in 1990, between the releases of Windows 3.0 and OS/2 1.3. During this time, Windows 3.0 became a tremendous success, selling millions of copies in its first year.Much of its success was because Windows 3.0 (along with MS-DOS) was bundled with most new computers. OS/2, on the other hand, was only available as an expensive stand-alone software package. In addition, OS/2 lacked device drivers for many common devices such as printers, particularly non-IBM hardware. Windows, on the other hand, supported a much larger variety of hardware. The increasing popularity of Windows prompted Microsoft to shift its development focus from cooperating on OS/2 with IBM to building its own business based on Windows)
Cheers
Tom

Posted by: Richard W

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-17 23:50

Originally Posted By: Meridialien
It'll be the shortest-lived product launch/crash if that's the true cost. That's almost half a year of Tidal and they supply the music too!
I've already made it clear I'm a miserly skinflint so you shouldn't be surprised I agree.

Originally Posted By: GMT
New Roon hardware + 5 years of subscription = less then entry level Sooloos Core 2nd hand. It works out at better value if you cost in 2 more endpoints.
In which case why did we ever buy Sooloos kit and not stick with Squeezeboxes or JRiver on our laptops? I always thought it was the Audio Quality. The clever design of the kit to reproduce high quality sound without the mush of the computer getting in the way. Is this suddenly not required?
Posted by: Danny

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-17 23:50

Yah, the price is not released yet, but it'll be around the cost of a sandwich and a coffee a month, charged annually. Something very affordable, but it won't be "app" pricing. Our product will be best-of-class for data and sound quality. Our value is in the fact that we are premium at every stage. Think Photoshop, not MS Paint.

We are going after customers that range from college students to you guys with insane hardware budgets. We are shooting for something around $100/yr or so.

For that price you will get an extremely flexible media server solution that works in various topologies, streams directly to top audio hardware without quality compromise, and gives you depth and breadth of metadata like you've never seen before. Your carefully groomed collections will still be useful, but will be utterly transformed by the additional data[1][2]. We have that much metadata. At the same time, it wont feel like an encyclopedia, like allmusic.com does. Instead, it's a fun and educational experience all the way. It'll be usable by your kids, your spouses, and it'll keep you engaged too. On the sound quality side, we are working with the best of the best. You know his name, but I can't say it just yet. ;-)

If you haven't already, check out the sneak peaks at http://roonlabs.com/ and the conversation at http://community.roonlabs.com/


So still, why not 99 cents?

Well, first, we license the best and unfortunately, the most expensive data out there, to build the best metadata service in the world. We are also adding to this service all the time, with more and more sources. Some data we build, some we buy, some we hire to build.

And with Roon, your metadata is updated constantly. As we add new sources users will see the benefits live in their collection. Any grooming that's done is stored in the database seperately, so we're able to continually update the underlying data without interfering with your edits[1][2]. This is unlike anything else out there. Composers who die will show death dates, and artists will have updated photos as they age. Reviews will rewrite themselves to stay relevant over the years, as will the relationships between artists and their collaborative efforts.

We are also starting a user-generated metadata service as well, so you guys can contribute your experitise back to each other.

Our cloud services will also sync and save your edits, playlists, play history, and more... and I'm sure this will someday turn into the basis of a fully cloud based Roon offering.

Then you look at services we integrate with, like Tidal. Our Tidal integration takes their music, and does something awesome with it. We love their audio quality and the span of their library, but using their service still feels likes everything else. We've basically had to rebuild their backend databases on our side, so that our Tidal integration feels like Roon, and not a bolt-on. If you used the Rhapsody + Sooloos stuff my team did in the past, you know what I mean.

When we were doing hardware years ago, bundling these prices weren't a problem. Not just because we used fewer (and cheaper) data sources, but because the price of the hardware was more than high enough to give us wiggle room in our margin structure. This is obviously not the case any more, as we arent selling $8,000 boxes.

So, given all the above, plus much more I didn't talk about, we came up with a annual price that allows us to cover our costs, grow the offering, and make some amount of profit so we can continue to reinvest into our business.

That said, many people have asked for a single shot lifetime membership, so we are looking at that as well. Sorry, but I dont have a ballpark price for that yet.

Hopefully all this can be resolved in the next few weeks since we have to launch next month!

1: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/importing-content-from-meridian-sooloos-systems/205
2: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/leveraging-existing-metadata-in-audio-files/210
Posted by: NeilF

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-17 23:51

I think the lifetime subscription option could be key.

I know software companies are all trying to move to a software as a service annual subscription model, but I must admit it really irks me.

In the world of accountancy/payroll software, a substantial initial investment used to give you an application you could use for years, perhaps with some user-updateable screens for legislation parameters etc.

Those days have gone, and now they expect you to pay the original price and then some, each and every year, justifying that with the annual addition of new bloatware features which you will never use...

If the lifetime sub offer for Roon is anything like a reasonable price, then that is definitely the way I will go, and from the teasers and extensive information they have shared to date, I reckon it's going to be a bazzer!

Couple that with the astonishing MQA SQ most of us have now experienced, and our listening will have been completely revolutionised.

I can't wait smile

Neil
Posted by: NeilF

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-18 00:02

Actually, when I say it irks me, what I really mean is I resent paying annual subscriptions for something I used to be able to purchase as a one off, on the basis of providing me with functionality I didn't ask for, don't want and probably won't ever use...

... but I can see it makes perfect sense for a product like Roon. And tbh, an annual fee of $100 sounds okay to me, if it really is as good as we think it's going to be, and (crucial this one) if $100 doesn't puzzlingly equate to 100 for us UK customers. mad

But I will still probably go lifetime tho' if I can afford it!

Neil
Posted by: GMT

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-18 00:21

Quote:
In which case why did we ever buy Sooloos kit and not stick with Squeezeboxes or J River on our laptops? I always thought it was the Audio Quality. The clever design of the kit to reproduce high quality sound without the mush of the computer getting in the way. Is this suddenly not required?
I didn't buy a Sooloos Core (but was close to on a number of occasions). Here are some possible answers to your question.

1) We love Meridian hardware (we can still use this with Roon).

2) People liked the extra software features that it provided over Squeezebox and Sonos (I think Roon will provide a wider feature set then Sooloos).

3) The perception that there wasn't a computer involved (there was).

4) Some people liked having a large dedicated touch screen.

If you believe what is being stated, the audio quality won't change with Roon.

Cheers
Tom
Posted by: Danny

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-18 00:26

I have no inside information here, but I fear the /$ issue might have to do with pricing differences by music labels.

I do have some experience with the pricing contracts of the music labels, but in this case, I'm just speculating.

Roon won't have this issue.
Posted by: Roving Gecko

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-18 04:15

100 USD per year is insane, must be the lifetime cost for sure...

Until recently I had a Rhapsody, Spotify and a Tidal subscription.

I've already dropped the Rhapsody one and will drop the Spotify one, if Roon music discovery will top Spotify (Spotify is better than Tidal for me, but I expect Roon to blow it away).

This easily leaves budget room for Roon.

Correction, (Danny, please ignore previous)
Like I said, 100 USD is insane. I suggest Danny gets the discount coupons out for the poor Roon fanbase smile.

All kidding aside, subscriptions are the way to go in software country, SAAS is the way, even if running locally. Just like the Adobe Creative cloud. The only snag is the double cost due to the streaming subscription combo.
Posted by: Ian

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-18 14:39

For existing Sooloos users, migrating to an updated system/UI at $100/year equalling 70/year (<67/mo [typo]) seems reasonable. Wouldn't like to see much more though. That $/ needs to be watched otherwise its going to start being compared against a months mobile phone or broadband cost et al.

For new users, its a different picture as you are not duplicating kit you have not already paid for. Subscription is then excellent value compared with premium on Sooloos items containing core.
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-18 17:59

Originally Posted By: Ian
$100 equalling 70/year (<7/mo)
Actually <6/mo grin

Russ
Posted by: VirusKiller

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-18 18:37

Originally Posted By: Ian
<7/mo
Originally Posted By: Ratbert
Actually <6/mo grin

[pedant_mode] Actually both wink [/pedant_mode]
Posted by: Ronnie

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-18 22:43

I think a little perspective is needed here as regards the cost of Roon.

Until 3 weeks ago [and even today], if a user wants to have the full fat Sooloos app, then the ONLY way to access that is to buy a C15 at 4,750... and indeed that's what many people here have done down thru the years... and it needs to be emphasized that in the vast majority of cases, these C15's were NOT being used as Cores or Stores... but purely as an attractive and 'flexible' UI to their music libraries.

Sure, users could also use the iPad app, but I think most who have used both can agree that there is a Chasm of difference between the 2 apps.

And even in order to use the iPad app, the User needs to invest 2,000 to 2,500 for a Core / Store.

When set against these headline and Upfront costs, the Roon investment of ~$100 really doesn't sound too bad IMHO... especially when many will be able to use EXISTING PC's and NAS's to run their Roon systems... and even if they don't, spending ~500 on a NUC / Mac and another 250 on a NAS storage device sounds quite good by comparison to the above Sooloos "buy-in" costs.

In simpler terms, there is a lot of "$100 per year" buried within those Sooloos hardware costs .. something worth bearing in mind when considering the projected Roon subscription costs.
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-18 23:17

Ronnie

Well said.

Cheers

Russ
Posted by: ncpl

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-19 02:33

Very well said... wise words.
Posted by: GMT

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-19 13:59

And am I right in thinking the Sooloos costs increase quite considerably again if you want to move from 2 to 3 endpoints?
Posted by: Gianni

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-19 14:15

One has to use a piece of dedicated Meridian hardware as an endpoint: MS200, MS600, 818/861 plus ID40/41 which has inevitable costs between 500 and

Or one can use a PC/MAC for a basic end-point with variable costs depending on how one interfaces it to the audio system.
Posted by: Carl

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-19 14:36

Hi Tom,

You mention Sooloos cost, but this topic is about the cost of Roon, so forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here.

From a Roon point of view all you have to do is add audio end points be they Meridian or non-Meridian.

Network Connected Endpoint Examples
MS200
MS600
MC200
MC600
808
818
861
AirPlay Devices
Others manufactures (in the pipeline)

Directly Connected Endpoint Examples
Meridian Prime
Meridian Explorer
USB DACs (asynchronous versions are best)
Mac internal audio device
PC internal audio device
Tablet internal audio device

So there is the cost of the hardware itself (be that Meridian or otherwise). As for Roon licensing; there has been informal talk of a one off fee or subscription. I guess it's possible that the licensing model could be tiered as well i.e. max number devices might be a factor ... but I really don't know. I suspect we will have to wait just a little while longer to find out.

Regards,
Carl
Posted by: GMT

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-19 18:17

Hi Carl

Thanks for questioning my post. I had it in my mind that you needed a beefier Core to support more then one endpoint in a Sooloos system i.e. MC600, but I see that the MC600 has the endpoints built in. I was suggesting that it would be cheaper to use 3 + endpoints in a in a Roon system rather than Sooloos, because you wouldn't need this extra purchase, but wasn't 100% sure hence the question.

Cheers
Tom
Posted by: Gruffle

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-23 05:26

The really intruiging thing is how this amicable separation can succeed for both Roon and Meridian. It seems to me that M are going to have to reposition themselves a bit, refreshing their product offering in the process, and that's maybe not a bad thing.
Mutually Assured Success for both companies seems in all our interests.
Posted by: Ludwig

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-23 12:49

Absolutely!
Posted by: Marcus

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-25 03:49

+1
/Marcus
Posted by: Anthony-Howard

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-27 13:49

Just thought that I would mention an option for those considering Roon. When I decided that my MD600 was not fit for the purpose of a resilient store I invested in a QNAP that offered me much better performance, flexibility and features at a significantly lower cost than Meridian despite me buying into the higher end of the QNAP SMB/SOHO product offering.

One of the features is a Virtualization Station. As a result for the cost of Roon itself and a Windows license Roon won't present me with any additional hardware costs over my Sooloos store as I can just spin up a virtual machine that will be more than adequate for the job and far more powerful than my MD600 core. After all regardless of selecting either Sooloos or Roon I would need a store anyway.

Given the suggested cost of Roon, even on a subscription license, the ameliorated cost over a period of 3 years (Slightly less than I have owned Sooloos for) will be significantly less and offer much better value for money than Sooloos ever was and I suspect ever will be. When you consider that the only real development of Sooloos in all that time was a bare minimum Tidal integration to keep pace with its competitors (I don't consider it the big deal that some do) if Roon advances its product in any worthwhile capacity over the next few years the comparative cost will offer significantly better value for money in my eyes than Sooloos.

Furthermore not being lucky enough to own an ID40/41 solution and given the doubt surrounding MQA and the MS600 I suspect that if I was a new entrant to streaming I could save a significant amount on a non Meridian Roon endpoint with very little, if any, loss in sound quality over Meridian. However this speculation remains to be proven.

Cheers,

Tony.
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-27 14:14

Hi Tony

The VM option on the QNAP's is an interesting idea, some of the SMB/SOHO models are quite well specced, i7 16GB RAM etc.

Cheers

Russ

PS: Same thoughts on the MD600.
Posted by: dpstjp

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-27 15:54

A QNAP NAS with i7 and 16GB RAM isn't cheap, from my quick perusal of Amazon.

Personally I'd go NUC/Mac Mini and lower spec NAS. Probably cheaper still and this would allow me to upgrade the former to higher spec without the need to go through the potential aggro of changing the latter.
Posted by: Anthony-Howard

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-27 17:30

My i7 QNAP with 32GB memory and 256GB SSD was cheaper than my MD600 is quieter and does so much more except being able to act as a Sooloos core. Obviously there are cheaper options especially if you just want it for Roon duties and it's great that we have options at multiple price points including those less than a Sooloos entry system. However I still think that it's worth considering especially given the value for money that it offers me.

Obviously it may not be suitable for all but I think based on cost any criticisms are largely disengenious when you compare it to an MD600. Granted they may be more than just relevant when you compare it to an MC200 or MC600.

Cheers,

Tony.
Posted by: dpstjp

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-27 18:00

256GB is not going to hold many albums, is it? So your cost comparison with the MD600 is going to have to add another NAS to the i7 QNAP unless your considering streaming only.

I don't disagree with you (having just sold my MD600 for QNAP) it's just you do need to factor everything else in. It's not dissimilar to those folks who say DSPs are way overpriced, yet ignore the extra cost of DACs, preamps, power amps and interconnects required when comparing to analogue speakers.
Posted by: Anthony-Howard

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-04-27 18:15

256GB is just the internal RAID 1 SSD cache. I added a pair of 480GB SSDs which I use for the VMs and ultimately Roon core. This brought the cost up to the equivalent of a disk less MD600. So I haven't factored in the costs of disks as they are the same regardless of which option is chosen.

However the QNAP supports a wider range of disks and even after adding my MD600 disks to the 480GB SSDs I would still have 6 spare drive bays for my money.

My cost comparison is more than fair. Especially since I could easily drop the SSD cache, 480GB array and reduce the memory from 32GB and still have a more capable, flexible, performant and cheaper system. Obviously it's not a complete like for like comparison since the QNAP lacks the advantages of a closed system such as Sooloos.

However I still think that it is a worthy consideration for Roon. For me the comparison with Sooloos only arose when Meridian chose to allow its use as a store and Roon arose with the potential to replace the core functionality as well. Of course if low cost resilient disk Sooloos is your goal you may be better off with an MC200 and a much cheaper 2 bay QNAP. You would of course gain an audio endpoint but I think this is probably a discussion for the Sooloos forum. My point for Roon still remains.

Cheers,

Tony.
Posted by: Still-one

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-11 22:59

According to the release.

Available online today, the service costs $119 per year, $499 for a lifetime subscription, and $999 for a planned Pro lifetime subscription for home-automation systems. -
Posted by: spinaltap

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 06:45

If so, that's too much for the ability to simply play back my own music.

Over time, the total cost of ownership would make Sooloos the wiser option.
Posted by: Ludwig

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 06:46

If you "just want to play back your own music", just get VLC. It's free.
Posted by: Ian

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 06:48

I think that puts a price guide on Sooloos core component. OT but I wonder if Sooloos core on QNAP will be free or not?

Back on topic, any news if Roon will give a discount to existing Sooloos core owners? The split from M may have lost that option.
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 07:16

The prices seem ok, I hope the 'exchange rate' makes a difference confused

I fear it will be a triumph of hope over expectation frown

Cheers

Russ
Posted by: GMT

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 07:45

Originally Posted By Spinaltap
If so, that's too much for the ability to simply play back my own music.

Over time, the total cost of ownership would make Sooloos the wiser option.
It could make Sooloos the cheaper long term option, however you may be assuming that you won't be wanting to replace Sooloos hardware as the product becomes more powerful. There are also considerations re: hardware faults that should be factored in. Roon will also have these, but there are more flexible workarounds with Roon.

Cheers
Tom
Posted by: GMT

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 07:47

Originally Posted By Ludwig
If you "just want to play back your own music", just get VLC. It's free.
Hi Ludwig

For some people, the prime requirement is to be able to playback with a Meridian endpoint.

Cheers
Tom
Posted by: ncpl

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 08:23

Sooloos/M users for the first time have a choice. That's quite amazing if you reflect on where Sooloos started at Meridian.

Sooloos has certain features; Roon has those and other features. Users can decide what is important to them.

Sooloos isn't exactly free either. There is a considerable entry price currently. As stated above it isn't yet known if Sooloos Core for NAS will be free or paid for.

No reason for anyone to expect Roon to be free. We know that Rovi data, lyrics, last.fm, TuneIn etc all have costs.

You pay your money...
Posted by: Ronnie

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 08:58

Originally Posted By Spinaltap
Over time, the total cost of ownership would make Sooloos the wiser option.

In looking critically at the Pricing Options, I see very few ways for the above statement to be true........and even those require some pretty generous Assumptions

Take a look at the Pricing options below and it's easy to see that in almost all cases, Sooloos ownership will cost more......and the following assumptions are made

a) That the Core / Server hardware for Sooloos / Roon will not require replacing or repair over the next 10 years......which if they did, then I think most people can see that the replacement / repair of the Meridian option will cost more than replacing / repairing a common PC

b) That the User doesn't already have a PC and NAS Storage that he can repurpose for the use by the Roon Server.......IMHO, most houses will already have such a machine they can use for this purpose

c) That a 500Gb or 1Tb Sooloos Core will be sufficient to handle a typical User's library

Just about the only way for the above to be true is if the User already has a Sooloos Core.......and would therefore need to invest in the Roon subscription model

And the Roon Trial period allows users to evaluate how Roon compares to their existing Sooloos UI.......and see if the extra annual subscription is merited by the Track Level Metadata and many other inherent advantages of the Roon software

Posted by: Gianni

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 09:08

Ronnie, how would you value Meridian's on-line support and their ability to access, debug and diagnose problems in their software and hardware? I think those costing elements are included in the capital outlay on a core device.

Will Roon have the service support model and bandwidth to offer an equivalent service over a wide and expanding range of combinations of NAS, computer o/s and hardware, etc?

Not disagreeing with your capital investment calculations but I suggest your operational costings may not be equivalent or complete.
Posted by: spinaltap

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 09:21

Originally Posted By Ian
... I wonder if Sooloos core on QNAP will be free or not?
I would be more than willing to pay for Meridian Core software for Mac/PC like any other piece of software - but not on a subscription basis.
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 09:21

Hi Gianni

For software faults I would expect Roon to fix bugs as part of the subscription as has been taken place during pre-release testing, as they don't currently provide hardware the warranty / repair costs of the hardware used to run Roon and or store the library would be down to the user as it is now.

Going forward I believe Roon will be able to support different OS and NAS's either directly, through the users forum or a combination of both, personally I have found this forum more able to solve user issues than MHQ.

All remains to be proved however.

Cheers

Russ
Posted by: spinaltap

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 09:36

Ronnie,

You quote for a 10 year overall annual Roon subscription (£1,900) compared to buying a MC200 with a MS200 (£2,500).

I suggest that if buying the new Sooloos system that you don't need the MS200. That makes for a more equatable comparison. With a typical negotiated 10% discount on the Meridian option then I would rather pay £1,800 to own Sooloos outright.

Even so, one would need to factor in the cost of an iPad to control the MC200.
Posted by: Gianni

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 09:41

Trying not to be negative - just trying to ensure a level playing field for comparison.

Many (former and current) software engineers here will have been in that invidious position of having the software and hardware vendors pointing at each other when something breaks. When they both come from the same supplier there is only one place to go for support.

I bought into Sooloos because it was a complete, integrated, end-to-end packaged solution that was both expandable and upgradeable and I do not regret that decision. Sooloos being opened up to a wider range of platforms and user interfaces is great news. Personally, I don't have the time to invest in building and stabilising a bespoke music server from different components from multiple suppliers (for that is the new model being offered after all) but other people (rightly) enjoy those challenges.
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 09:47

Gianni

Never considered your comment negative, just a different viewpoint that is totally valid, if you like I will build you a Roon server wink

Cheers

Russ
Posted by: Gianni

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 09:52

smile
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 09:55

That offer didn't include the subscription cry

Russ
Posted by: ncpl

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 10:09

Originally Posted By Gianni
I bought into Sooloos because it was a complete, integrated, end-to-end packaged solution
Absolutely right. And there will still be a significant number of current and future users exactly like that. That's why Sooloos will still be a very viable product for some time to come.

The comments thus far today just emphasise what a good situation for users this is.

Some users will stay with Sooloos server; some will use Roon.

All users here should have the good sense to use Meridian endpoints so that is a good thing for M.
Posted by: Ronnie

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 10:09

Originally Posted By Gianni
how would you value Meridian's on-line support and their ability to access, debug and diagnose problems in their software and hardware? I think those costing elements are included in the capital outlay on a core device.

Sorry Gianni, but about the most polite thing I can say about Meridian support of their Sooloos offerings is that it's just as well that I love the sound that is produced by their variety of Endpoint!!!......I really can't be any more positive than that

To deal with your above question: Is there any evidence of Meridian actually being able to remotely "debug and diagnose problems" in their Sooloos offerings?? There are oh so many posts on here about Users' Drives failing, and never hearing anything from Meridian about those failures [either ahead of time or afterwards], despite Meridian's marketing claims to the contrary

How many users here have had Meridian connect to their Sooloos kit and remotely diagnose a problem.......as opposed to shipping the unit back to Meridian for repair??

How many Problems [Hardware & Software] are solved here by HH Members, rather than the PP's or Meridian themselves.....I would go so far as to say that Meridian and their PP's rely almost too heavily on the very supportive and knowledgeable members on here.......and I'd ask Sooloos users to consider their daily usage WITHOUT the help and guidance they receive here from HH members......with little to no contributions from HQ or their PP's [with 2 notable exceptions]

How long have Meridian taken to react and solve fairly serious issues with the Sooloos software......these have ranged from the Metadata service being down frequently and without notice......to problems with the iPad app not working properly.......to ControlXX being unable to connect to the Core etc., etc.

As for the critical processes of Backup and Restore: These processes are now so prehistoric and out-of-date that they have long passed the point of being 'fit for purpose"........IMHO anyone who relies solely on these Backup processes from Sooloos is just a time bomb waiting to go off........No Audit Trails of Files / Albums backed up.......Backups taking FAR longer than they should take.......Backups failing in the middle of a routine, with no explanation given.......Restores resulting in Deleted Albums being restored.......the list goes on.......and on

IMHO, Meridian Sooloos kit comes with a high capital outlay for what in essence are fairly standard IT items......and come with many promises of Integration & Support etc.......but IMHO, the only one that really delivered upon is the Sound Quality......and to be fair, that is delivered in Spades!!.........everything else????

Posted by: Ronnie

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 10:29

Originally Posted By Gianni
Will Roon have the service support model and bandwidth to offer an equivalent service over a wide and expanding range of combinations of NAS, computer o/s and hardware, etc?

Not disagreeing with your capital investment calculations but I suggest your operational costings may not be equivalent or complete.

Roon are still a relatively unknown quantity and who knows how they will be as a company in the future

However, even a brief glance at their Roon Forum shows how much more Supportive and Responsive they have been to date.......just on a different planet compared to how Meridian have ever been in support of their Sooloos kit, whether early on in the takeover or recently

Problems are reported to Roon and responses given in MINUTES or Hours.......with Fixes issued very quickly within a week at the outside

A Meridian user, used to Meridian's less than communicative nature for the past several years cannot help but be "shocked" at the level of openness and clarity on the current issues and how long they will take to solve.......as well as openness on the "Roadmap", which helps people make decisions about what's required for the future

Everyone knows that Roon still need to prove themselves in the ongoing business reality of "many users, little resources" [which equally applies to Microsoft, Apple and Google by the way]......and only time will tell if their Subscription income is put to the best of use when it comes to a proper support infrastructure.......

However, I can say that Roon are off to a very good start in the brief period since their breakaway from Meridian......and if they can maintain that momentum and diligence, they will be a force to be reckoned with......and a company well worth supporting
Posted by: spinaltap

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 10:37

Don't hold back, Ronnie, tell us all what you really think about the Sooloos/Meridian offering whistle
Posted by: Ronnie

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 10:46

Originally Posted By Spinaltap
You quote for a 10 year overall annual Roon subscription (£1,900) compared to buying a MC200 with a MS200 (£2,500).

I suggest that if buying the new Sooloos system that you don't need the MS200. That makes for a more equatable comparison. With a typical negotiated 10% discount on the Meridian option then I would rather pay £1,800 to own Sooloos outright.

Even so, one would need to factor in the cost of an iPad to control the MC200.

Sorry Spinaltap, but again the above comment would not necessarily be true

Most who have compared, will confirm that the use of an MS200 is required with an MC200 to achieve the level of CD replay that they may be used to from Meridian CD players

And equally, as Roon provides an "Exclusive Mode" in the software, which obfuscates the impact of the Windows and OSX OS's have on Audio quality.......then the output from a Macmini or NUC digital output equipped with Roon will very much approximate the output from the digital outputs of the the MC200.......so if a user is happy with that, then no MS200 is required in either case........and the MS200 cost would come off BOTH sides of the above comparison chart

As to your point of wanting to own the kit "outright", then the fairest comparison is the £1,400 for the Hardware plus Roon Lifetime Subscription, rather than the 10-Year amortized cost of the £1,900 option........indeed in this case [and specifically in your circumstances as I understand them] Roon would cost £1,400 to own "outright", while a new Sooloos option would cost £2,250.........assuming you would plan to use one of your existing Mac's to run Roon, thereby reducing the Roon related cost even further

And even all of the above assumes that using Roon on a daily basis is the same as using Sooloos.......and as I think will become very clear to many over the next week, Roon has MANY more UI advantages over Sooloos in daily usage......and IMHO is worth the £90 per annum subscription [or however a user chooses to pay]
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 10:56

Originally Posted By Spinaltap
Don't hold back, Ronnie, tell us all what you really think about the Sooloos/Meridian offering whistle
I think Ronnie is voicing opinions that many hold but have not expressed?

Cheers

Russ
Posted by: Ronnie

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 11:04

Don't hold back Spinaltap, take each point in turn and please explain where you think I'm mistaken??

And to Russ's point, many of these same issues have already been raised with Meridian personnel directly on several occasions in the past... and I would hope that shining a light on them here might bring a more appropriate response from Meridian as to how they plan to support Sooloos in the future.
Posted by: ncpl

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 11:14

I was watching and reading some of the political commentary following the UK election last week. One comment jumped out at me when an analyst pointed out the success of those MP's that actively engaged with their constituents via email, blog, FB, Twitter etc. Adult dialogue.

This wasn't about advertising or selling. It was about dealing with issues. There are examples of those that didn't engage who didn't succeed in the votes.

I was struck by the parallel to the impact that good comms can have in this crazy world of hi-fi. As noted above (and many times elsewhere) it is only speculation, frustration and negativity that fills the voids.

The dialogue has started well on the Roon forum. Even if the answers to the questions raised are "No", or "No because..." or "possibly later" the effect is clear to see. The void is avoided (excuse that one).

Sorry to steer a bit OT but there is something here that I hope the right folks understand.
Posted by: ncpl

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 11:15

Ronnie, I think you are spot on to call it out.

Thanks.
Posted by: dpstjp

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 11:15

Ronnie,

I would rework your annual subscription numbers for Roon. You have to assume some level of inflation to do it on a Discounted Csh Flow basis to even up the purchase outright versus rent discrepancy. Of course you then have to assume Roon survives, if they don't that precious track level metadata is going to take a shed load of personal work that you need to price in.
Posted by: Ronnie

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 11:23

The chart was prepared to make the costs easier to compare... I didn't want to confuse by adding in such factors ... and there were several other assumptions I had to make as well about the equipment that people already had... and the size of their libraries etc.

I'm sure many here can prepare costs that are more specific to themselves and make the best comparison of the options.
Posted by: spinaltap

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 11:26

Originally Posted By Ronnie
...take each point in turn and please explain where you think I'm mistaken??
My retort should not be taken as a critique of your opinions, but simply meant as injecting some understated humour.

I've long believed that some of us already have the 'components' of Sooloos - Mac/PC, Squeezebox, NAS, iTunes, BitPerfect, iPad, iPeng, CoverScout - but without paying the premium price dictated by Meridian.

If Meridian's product road map includes a QNAP Core, then perhaps Meridian may also produce a paid-for Mac/PC software Core. Meridian can make money on such software, if, as other software developers do, in charging upgrade fees as and when new versions are released.
Posted by: Ronnie

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 11:39

Originally Posted By dpstjp
Of course you then have to assume Roon survives, if they don't that precious track level metadata is going to take a shed load of personal work that you need to price in.
As stated above, Roon are an unknown quantity... but the old Investment adage also needs be borne in mind about Meridian i.e. "Past Performance is no guarantee of future results".

So the need to support their clients and succeed in today's competitive world applies equally to both companies... and for all our sakes, I hope that Meridian and Roon both survive and thrive in the future.

As regards your point about Track Level data, I think you [perhaps more than most] are aware of the proprietary manner in which Sooloos data is stored... in comparison to the open Folder / File folder structure used by Roon.

As you've seen, getting 3rd party apps to read Sooloos' Data can result in compromised data... with better results seen from reading the more common Folder / File / ID3 tags used by Roon.

So the "Shed Load of personal work" that you refer to above applies to BOTH options, if [touch wood] either option fails to exist.

I would also add that the creation of Track Level Metadata in Roon does NOT take a shed-load of personal work... as you will see, Roon automatically populates this data in a manner that is much quicker and FAR more hands off than the same process is in Sooloos.

e.g. Importing a 5,000 Album library can be done in about an hour... compare that to how long it would take you to do that on a Sooloos system, which still requires the "one-by-one" import process... at even 3 minutes per CD, that's 250 manhours sitting in front of Control:PC as it imports your Albums one-by-one... whilst Roon takes 1 hour UNSUPERVISED, plus another 2-3 hours of Grooming afterwards.
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 11:55

I found 6000 CD's per hour was a consistent import rate in Roon over three installs.

Russ
Posted by: Mtns

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 12:09

I am using a loaner Source One to run core in my FLORIDA system using a QNAP for store(soon core). I was speaking to Marc Koval about the options and costs yesterday. My conclusion, which he did not take issue with, is (at these prices) why wouldn't you want both, just as a matter of convenience. Roon can access existing Sooloos info and improve on my less than well groomed, full of duplicates 120,000 track collection. Just hiding the duplicates will help me immensely.

Ronnie provides a good cost summary with all the appropriate assumptions discussed and involved amounts disclosed. This allows for argument and recasting the data and assumptions ad nauseous 😏

As a retired PWC audit partner, I had forgotten how entertaining an unfolding cost accounting scrum can be. What's hard to argue with is that the additional cost of adding Roon to most HHikers setups are easily smuggled into a household budget.
Posted by: dpstjp

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 12:58

Part of the problem with this approach is the music directory structure of Sooloos makes it far less easy for Roon to scan properly. For example I have an opera where one of the three disks in Roon is apparently a different release to the other two. If these were nested in a single folder hierarchy it would be a lot easier for Roon to parse the database, with fewer errors.

I'm just firing up an old ReadyNAS to export all my music to so I can get a better feel for how well Roon will identify multidisk albums versus the extremely clunky way Sooloos handles it. I'd be running two databases but ultimately I'll get a better idea of how Roon runs without the issues that using a single database that is structured for Sooloos creates.
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 13:02

Dominic

I have the two libraries one Sooloos and one a native FLAC export from Sooloos running on my QNAP, just in case.

Russ
Posted by: dpstjp

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 13:41

Russ,

I think that's sensible. I thought just pointing Roon to the Sooloos database would be an option, but for large libraries I now don't think it is. Roon's ability to dynamically manage the files and the database is a big plus point in favour of having two libraries.

In addition it won't take 3 hours of digging around in the Sooloos debug to find the FLAC files to load onto my Pono.

Since I had the spare ReadyNAS and a few old disks lying around it wasn't a hard decision to make. I'm also covered for my music if one of the NAS breaks down, with offsite back up in the IoW.

[Edit] Really wish that Sooloos export just stuck a folder.jpg in the same directory rather than embedding the artwork in the files themselves. I'm hoping that MediaMonkey or the like will be able to process these out. [/Edit]
Posted by: Soundserge

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 13:43

Originally Posted By Ratbert
I have the two libraries one Sooloos and one a native FLAC export from Sooloos running on my QNAP, just in case.
This will be my scenario too if I'm going to try Roon.

I'm curious, does this mean you have two cores (1 Sooloos and 1 Roon) as well as separate endpoints for Roon and Sooloos playback? I thought I read somewhere that for an Sooloos endpoint to play from a Roon core, the Sooloos core must be turned off. Or do you toggle the cores?
Posted by: ncpl

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 13:46

Ditto... I have always had a "normal" exported folder as backup. Regardless of Roon, I never wanted my only backups to be in bespoke/random Sooloos folders. If Sooloos disappeared then you would be pretty stuck without it.
Posted by: spinaltap

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 13:50

Originally Posted By Mtns
..the additional cost of adding Roon to most HHikers setups are easily smuggled into a household budget.


Not when you're on a modest retirement budget.
Posted by: dpstjp

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 13:53

Originally Posted By Soundserge
I'm curious, does this mean you have two cores (1 Sooloos and 1 Roon) as well as separate endpoints for Roon and Sooloos playback? I thought I read somewhere that for an Sooloos endpoint to play from a Roon core, the Sooloos core must be turned off. Or do you toggle the cores?
You can toggle the endpoints. The Cores can run separately and at the same time.
Posted by: Mtns

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 14:13

Originally Posted By Spinaltap
Originally Posted By Mtns
..the additional cost of adding Roon to most HHikers setups are easily smuggled into a household budget.
Not when you're on a modest retirement budget.
I never said you wouldn't need to smuggle something out to accommodate.
Posted by: Altus

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 15:23

Originally Posted By dpstjp
Really wish that Sooloos export just stuck a folder.jpg in the same directory rather than embedding the artwork in the files themselves. I'm hoping that MediaMonkey or the like will be able to process these out.
dBpoweramp can do this very easily in batch mode.

Another useful progam would be one that can take the Sooloos folder system and turn it back into a conventional system. The Roon guys must know how to do this - save an awful lot of effort going through the Export process.

Would also be good if new Sooloos could work natively on a conventional folder structure too.
Posted by: ncpl

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 15:26

Originally Posted By AltusLiceor
Would also be good if new Sooloos could work natively on a conventional folder structure too.
Indeed... that would probably need a complete re-write of the core software though. Oh... hang on a mo.... = Roon.
Posted by: dpstjp

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 15:32

Quite. M should get rid of those idiots who thought it was a good idea to create such a stupid structure in the first place. Oh...hang on a mo.... - Roon!
Posted by: Danny

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-05-12 21:18

The 'stupid' folder structure was a memory and performance decision made in 2005 smile

The machines have all gotten much faster and memory much less of a concern in the last 10 years smile
Posted by: Gruffle

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-14 11:44

How much will Roon cost?

Well $499 (less an early adopter discount wink ) actually seems a bargain to me.
The usability even at v1.0 just completely won me over.
The responsiveness of the Roon guys on their forum is a much needed breath of fresh air.

Installed in a cinch, got control from my desktop in my study, the missus and the kids love it instantly.
No more praying to the beautiful if somewhat frustrating C15.

Probably comes over as a bit of a marketing pitch, sorry ... just a bit of enthusiasm grin

The biggest thing to work out now is MQA/which Merdian endpoint.

Come on M help us all out here with which products will do/get what, even if the timescales are estimated, so we can plan forward for the future.
Posted by: Ronnie

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-14 13:30

Just for the sake of accuracy, and not to turn anyone off, the prices for Room are

Lifetime Subscription.....£325.... $499

Annual Subscription...... £78......$119
Posted by: Gruffle

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-14 15:33

Oops - duly corrected thanks Ronnie, got my $$$ mixed up with GBPs.
Posted by: Ian

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-14 16:04

Does the lifetime subscription include all future updates or is it open ended and future enhancements cost extra? I.e. could promised extras like MQA or DSD end up costing?
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-14 16:27

Everything including the infinite improbability drive I hope laugh

Russ
Posted by: Jaapaap

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-14 17:10

The lifetime subscription to me is a bet that the company will still be around and the best solution in 4-5 years.
Posted by: Anthony-Howard

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-14 17:20

It's a much cheaper bet than many of us made with Sooloos and with much fewer conditions and constraints too.

Meridian is still around but it certainly isn't the best. Your timeframe seems about right though.

Cheers

Tony.
Posted by: Gruffle

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-14 17:29

Originally Posted By Ian
Does the lifetime subscription include all future updates or is it open ended and future enhancements cost extra? I.e. could promised extras like MQA or DSD end up costing?
The accurate answer to that is beyond "lifetime data service" I don't know!

I suppose it is something of an excercise of faith as with any "lifetime" membership. All they have to do is come out with a new product and obsolete the current Roon software and lifetime means nothing. At the end of the day you have to trust the supplier, equally the supplier is at some risk if it p***es off its loyal followers.

What I do know is that just about every room in my house is now playing different music (arrgh!) and it is an instant hit with the family who were completely into it within seconds in a way that Sooloos/Control:PC never did. The metadata is miles better and stuff like bio's and lyrics is just candy on top.

I think these Roon guys are really onto something and a bit like a Kickstarter I am happy to donate to the cause. Time will tell if it is a wise investment.

Inversely I think it can really help Meridian (even if there are short term frustrations). I am not convinced they ever got hold of the furiously rapid cycles of software development and increasingly Sooloos (software) seemed to be in the doldrums, the only recent flicker of light was the inclusion of NAS.

Freeing them of this pressure will allow them to focus on what they are truly good at, excellent audio hardware and really revolutionary audio reasearch leading to products such as MQA which I view as a stunning achievement for which imho a Sir Bob is in order in due course. John Buchanan already seems to be signalling a shift in style at Meridian and I wish him and all at M well. For sure I will remain an M customer in the future.
Posted by: Ludwig

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-14 18:51

Originally Posted By Ian
Does the lifetime subscription include all future updates or is it open ended and future enhancements cost extra? I.e. could promised extras like MQA or DSD end up costing?

DSD is not a "promised extra". Full DSD support on Roon was already released a few weeks ago.
Posted by: Ronnie

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-14 21:18

Originally Posted By Ian
Does the lifetime subscription include all future updates or is it open ended and future enhancements cost extra? I.e. could promised extras like MQA or DSD end up costing?

A question also worth considering against any Meridian purchases!!

For example, let's say that 12 months ago you paid ~£50k for an 818v2 plus a D8kSE pair.......and you bought the kit after perusing much of the Spec Sheet promises of "Upgradeability" and "Firmware Updates" etc., etc

What "guarantee" were Meridian offering 12 months ago about either DSD or the-yet-to-be-announced MQA??

And as we stand in June 2015, what guarantee do you have that you will not need to pay more to the £50k you've already paid, in order to enjoy MQA??.........[in fact it's pretty clear that it will cost you more to get "full-fat" MQA into the 12 month old kit!!]

So as regards your question about Roon and Lifetime Subscription........do you know if Meridian plan to charge a Licence Fee to Hardware / Software suppliers??......I certainly don't know.......I strongly suspect Roon and other manufacturers don't know.......and it may be that even Meridian don't know what they're going to do

So how could Roon [or any other supplier] offer MQA as part of their Lifetime Subscription, when they don't know how much, if anything, it's going to cost them??

IMHO, it's reasonable to expect that the Roon product you see today to evolve greatly over time......and features and flexibility will be added......and many of these features will be included as part of the lifetime subscription.....that is a reasonable expectation

To expect MQA or Dolby Atmos for Music [my invention] be included is unrealistic.......at least until Meridian and Dolby announce that their Licensing will be free to manufacturers
Posted by: Gruffle

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-14 21:43

Originally Posted By Ronnie
... To expect MQA or Dolby Atmos for Music [my invention] be included is unrealistic... at least until Meridian and Dolby announce that their Licensing will be free to manufacturers
Actually I would hope in addition to DSD already included that MQA is included for Meridian's sake. There is a real concern that MQA adoption will be severely limited if chargeable to the end user as the take up will be negligible in the wider market. MQA costs will need to be embedded in the overall cost structure of the music industry if it is to succeed. Audiophiles probably count for <0.01% of music users, which is part of the problem of course.

As an example I looked at the Muse website recently for the HD release of their new album Drones. CD on the High Street £8.99, digital download 44.1k/16bit £9.99, HD audio 24/96 £16.99. Justify that if you can - I can't get past total bl**dy ripoff myself. Guess what - I own the CD, and had to rip it ... so passé. (yes I know I can play it on Roon but also want it for portable players.)

The real pity is the "masses" are being denied decent quality audio (and most are none the wiser) whilst the industry totally unjustifiably screws those who are interested in SQ.

MQA is an opportunity to spread higher quality music to all for negligible oncost, the sheer volume of music out there could make M a handsome return. Will it happen?
Posted by: dpstjp

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-14 22:07

Originally Posted By Gruffle
Oops - duly corrected thanks Ronnie, got my $$$ mixed up with GBPs.
M seem to do that with some of their retail prices, but for real.

As for MQA, I'm not sure Roon need to be involved in payment. All they need to do is pass through the data bit perfect, so they ought to be agnostic on whether a track is MQA-coded or not.
Posted by: Gruffle

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-14 22:20

I'm keeping out of M pricing wink

Re Roon/MQA - you are correct if there is a downstream MQA decoder, however I assume they may well want to offer it for other installations.

Goes back to the question as to which products M will offer MQA decoding on, and if there is to be a cost.
Posted by: ChrisLayerUK

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-15 06:52

The improvement over CD for those not decoding MQA should be enough to justify it being offered. The streaming companies could then start a Quality war as opposed to a race to the bottom.

You may think I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one... (John Lennon)

Thoughts and hopes, Chris smile
Posted by: dpstjp

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-15 08:17

Chris,

I think you're being a Double Fantasist... (not quite John Lennon)

People have been sold cheap music (by Apple etc) for too long. Quality is now a niche market.
Posted by: spinaltap

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-15 13:15

Patience is a virtue, except we all want MQA today..

Originally Posted By BobS
You can rest easy. As you might have expected from this team, MQA is hierarchical and extensible. The decoding architecture can fit perfectly into Surround Processors, Digital Loudspeakers and a number of other product types ...

I wonder if MQA will be offered as a firmware update for existing G Series kit.

As for the lifetime cost of Roon, being $499/£321, I would rather buy the physical QNAP kit on which to install the (free) MDMS Core.

QNAP (Amazon UK prices)...
TS-251 = £248 (as utilised by M at the Munich High End Audio Show), or,
TS-451 = £340 (4 Bay version of TS-251)
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-15 13:57

Originally Posted By spinaltap
QNAP (Amazon UK prices)...
TS-251 = £248 (as utilised by M at the Munich High End Audio Show), or,
TS-451 = £340 (4 Bay version of TS-251)
That would be without disks.

Russ
Posted by: dpstjp

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-15 14:33

Of course M have only said that Core could be run on a QNAP (for which I thank them). What they haven't said is what spec QNAP is needed to run Core effectively.

Given the spec for Roon to run effectively it remains to be seen how much M can squeeze out of a relatively lower specced NAS CPU and RAM.
Posted by: spinaltap

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-15 14:41

Originally Posted By Ratbert
That would be without disks
I've got enough disks already. Even so, it's cheaper to source the required size/disks yourself.

Originally Posted By dpstjp
Of course M have only said that Core could be run on a QNAP (for which I thank them). What they haven't said is what spec QNAP is needed to run Core effectively.

Given the spec for Roon to run effectively it remains to be seen how much M can squeeze out of a relatively lower specced NAS CPU and RAM.
Last week, I discussed the merit of running the MDMS Core on a QNAP TS-251 with Des Ford at M. He didn't contradict my premise of running an MS200 from a TS-251 with MDMS Core.

You can add extra RAM to a TS-251/451 yourself. It sports a 2.41GHz dual-core Intel processor, so I wouldn't exactly call it underpowered.
Posted by: ncpl

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-15 15:13

When it is running core, decoding all files to PCM; decoding DSD and encapsulating hi-res into MQA I would expect some machines to feel the strain.

Some folks will also have their NAS doing other duties so the variables increase.

This all takes Sooloos use outside of the closed system that it has been so far (ignoring QNAP store for a mo). As a closed system M could spec the units with reasonable confidence.

Will be interesting to see what the recommendations are.
Posted by: Gruffle

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-15 19:20

Not to mention that I believe the QNAP SOHO units are doing software RAID, and that can certainly use some processor cycles.

However, if you are canny enough however you can upgrade the processor (so long as you respect the TDP) and memory in many of the units smile

The optimal Roon installation will be a headless Roon server (to be released in the foreseeable future it seems) tucked away somewhere, data on a NAS or equivalent mass store and various endpoints as needed.
Posted by: Ratbert

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-15 19:26

+1 running on an old (powerful enough) laptop for now.

Russ
Posted by: Ronnie

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-16 10:11

I do sometimes wonder what the take up numbers would have been if Meridian had introduced Roon as Sooloos 3 and said:

"The Software itself is FREE... while it will cost £1,000 to Upgrade your MC200... £1,250 to Upgrade your MD600... and £2,000 to Upgrade your Control:15... in order to run the New Sooloos App."
Posted by: ncpl

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-16 11:41

You must have seen the new price list then Ronnie wink
Posted by: JobSeeker

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-16 13:37

Knock those prices down by one third and I would have paid it.
Posted by: Ronnie

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-16 13:53

This is Meridian we're talking about here... who have never been reticent about their pricing points... even my prices above were being very conservative on how much Meridian are likely to have charged for the necessary hardware modifications plus Labour Time to carry out the upgrades.

But even if I take the suggested £850, that is roundabout the price required to buy a Lifetime Sub to Roon plus a PC to run the Server / Core on.

Plus there is the initially cheaper annual sub route option for Roon.

And it also assumes that the User doesn't have a PC suitable to run Roon already in their homes... which has been the case for many.
Posted by: Mtns

Re: How Much Will Roon Cost? - 2015-06-16 14:48

I just bought a refurbished 23" touchscreen HP Envy as recommended by Marc Koval for $580 and I will be up and running.