Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems 8Ks vs Magico Minis (Split From Do you use CD Poll thread)

I don't own a pair of Minis. It was the V2 that I auditioned. It really is a amazing. If I were to purchase them it would only be after I was able to construct a listening room purely for my audio system. They demanded that much respect if you know what I mean. Once you hear the bliss they can reach, you don't want to risk any kind of room limitations. Unfortunately that drives the cost up exceedingly though.

They aren't the only non-Meridian speaker to approach/surpass the 8000s. I think it's important that we put into perspective the simple fact that dealers who sell 8000s also sell other amazing speakers and separates. The two Meridian dealers I use have never pushed Meridian over any other option (or vice versa). They know that there is more than one way to achieve superb sound. Great speaker + great amplification + great source. Meridian just takes a different approach that isn't to my personal liking, nor do I think that it is the pinnacle. That doesn't make it a bad approach though.

Asa,

"You do not have to use a processor with 8000s, and most of what you are complaining about seems to be the result of using a processor. Meridian DSP speakers are amazing and well worth making the effort to find out how they work and what they consist of. "

I never said that the 8000s weren't amazing. They are great speakers! I also understand that you do not need a processor. My comments aren't complaints either - they are observations. I think that plain stereo from my G68 sounds more realistic than Meridian surround sound simulations for music material.

Crion,

You may be right for my system. My center channel is matched but not of the same size. I did audition the 8000s with an 8000 center though. They sounded great, but the Magicos were vastly superior when it comes to realism. Since going with a server source, I'm thrilled enough with the stereo image that I don't feel compelled to buy a large center.

Ronnie,

You seem incensed at my comments. What for? As a forum do I not have the opportunity to share my experience just like everyone else? At no point did I act like I was the only one who had heard a passive system or used a Meridian processor purely for DA conversion. I've also made it clear that this is my opinion. My point to Chris was that I have no interest in what Bob Stuart has to say or write about his solutions. I'm only interested in the results. The same applies to other high end dealers who give very elaborate reasons for why their offering is better than all else. My listening experience is a fact for me alone, and I am dismissive of the idea that viewing a video explanation of how something works will change my opinion of what I am actually hearing. I'm keen to hear the experience of others who have turned off DSP and upsampling. I also appreciate points like what Crion has to make that might explain my experience.

Frank,

"You obviously don't understand what resolution enhancement is or does. Take some time to learn what it is and what it does before you condemn it. That way you won't have to rely on hunches."

I do not understand exactly what resolution enhancement is, hence why I asked those questions. What I do know is that to my ears the sound is smoother and not necessarily better. I also know that an upsampled 16bit recording will not have the same data as a 24bit recording of the exact same performance. So if I have two 24bit songs (one a recording and the other upsampled), what am I hearing in terms of detail being presented? Yes there is beneficial filtering, but what else is going on? Is there anything being added where a 24bit recording would have original data from the actual performance? I can't find a detailed white paper on Meridian's website.

Anyway it comes down to what I hear and not about what I read. A 24bit recording is not the same as an upsampled 16bit recording, and in my experience upsampling does not always yield preferable results from 16 bit recordings.

On the contrary, I'm not even mildly perturbed by your comments. However, it must be said that your posts in this thread apppear Deliberately Incendiary and unnecesarily so


It is quotes like this that completely undermine any remaining credibility that you may have here. At the levels of performance offered by these speakers, for anybody to claim a "Vastly" superior performance in either direction is simply not credible

"On the contrary, I'm not even mildly perturbed by your comments. However, it must be said that your posts in this thread apppear Deliberately Incendiary and unnecesarily so

It is quotes like this that completely undermine any remaining credibility that you may have here. At the levels of performance offered by these speakers, for anybody to claim a "Vastly" superior performance in either direction is simply not credible"

Rhurley,

It would be helpful to me if you could explain what I could have written differently. You say that my posts appear deliberately incendiary, but fail to explain how. This is two way communication. If your experience differs from mine, then all you have to do is share it. Rather than attack me, why not simply state that you have used your processor without upsampling, listened to passive systems etc. and drawn different conclusions? Why not argue that watching Bob's video will help me to better hear (as if that's possible). Is that not all that is required? Obviously you are perturbed because you find my comments incendiary.

You propose that I have lost all credibility when I claim that the Magico Minis are vastly superior to everything I've heard. That is my experience. My experience is also that digital active speakers are just another way to achieve the same goals as separates (not necessarily a superior one). All you have to reply is that you too have heard the Minis, and you think that they are not vastly superior to the 8000s. All you have to say is that separates cannot compare to digital active speakers and give your reasons. Have you at least heard the Minis?

Doesn't Bob Stuart claim that his digital sources are vastly superior to the alternatives? Does he lose all credibility when 50% of the folks here user a server and some claim that a $100 airport express is just as good as a high end spinner? It's Bob's opinions/claims, just like my opinion/claim is that the Mini's are vastly superior [in terms of realism] to everything I've heard including my own system. I don't find Bob Stuart's claims incendiary, and I don't see why you find mine incendiary. Just provide your alternative point of view. There's no reason to make this personal. My comments were no indication about any experience other than my own.

And by the way, I would not have believed that the Magicos do what they actually do before I heard them. I did not think it was possible that such a leap over the best I had previously heard was realistic.

Fanz, I cant see why you wont watch the video, but you will read things to understand.
In the end, I agree with you, your ears have to decide for you.

Its not practical for me to type out what Bob says on technical issues but its so easy to listen, not for marketing Hype, but to gather information that both supports and increases your understanding based on his clear knowledge at the cutting edge of research.
You dont have to agree..............Cheers, Chris

No worries Chris. I think I understand Meridian speakers well enough, and I'm wary about manufacturer claims. That's why I try to avoid videos, marketing, etc. One day I will get my hands on a detailed paper on upsampling, but for now my ears and mind tell me that something not necessarily right is happening when you compare an upsampled 16bit recording to the same 24bit recording.

Gentlemen, I feel I must interject. There have been several instances over the years when a new visitor to the forum voices enthusiasm for non Meridian products, and claims superiority for some of his chosen components. Almost invariably, responses here have a veneer of civility, but there's no mistaking the antipathy to the "non believer's" viewpoint. Our replies usually encompass the following themes: Lack of Understanding; Not having heard a properly set up M rig; Accusations of Exaggerated Subjectivity, and finally, dismissive contempt. Not all of these reponses come from the same individuals, but as a mob, we do a competent job of belittling the heretic.

Fanz may well have been overly colourful in writing style, but does that negate his viewpoint, or the assertion that there are indeed superior sounding components out there? No.

Fanz notes that he's not entirely convinced by the various DSP modes. I've had a few weeks now to play with Trifield with 8ks and a 6kc. It can sound impressive on some recordings, but I don't feel it's a panacea, and I'm surprised that many here use it as the default listening mode. I find it exaggerates the midrange, restricts soundstage stage width, reduces bass slam and precision and can sound fatiguing over a few hours. I don't find this with the 8ks alone in Direct mode. I have spent may hours tinkering with each of the parameters, so I don't feel lack of experience is behind my findings. I'm still glad I have Trifield and Music; some CDs sound truly stunning, but I recognise where Fanz is coming from, and it may be more of an issue for him depending on which musical genres he favours.

Can there be better performing components than 8ks? I think there can. I spent four hours yesterday evening listening to familiar CDs via a dCS Verdi la Scala>dCS Delius>McIntosh 501s> Usher BE10s courtesy of SteveH. There was significantly greater clarity, transient speed, detail, air, soundstage depth and width with that rig than I have ever managed from my 8ks. Musical instruments sounded more like real instruments played in the room in front of me than the 8ks have managed in the three years I've owned them (yes, I know what real instruments sound like). My 8ks still win on bass depth and authority, and I preferred the familiar portrayal of the lower mid; The Ushers sounded a little forward in that respect. I suspect that over the course of a day's listening, the 8ks would cause less listening fatigue. Both of our systems can doubtless be tuned for better performance, but I'd defy anyone not to observe these differences. It's not the first time I've heard comparable performance to M gear; a dealer dem of a Wadia 861>McIntosh MA6900>Jas Audio Oriors a few years ago gave my 6ks a run for their money in all bar the bass weight. Interestingly, SteveH's rig would cost virtually the same (inc cabling) as a new pair of 8ks and an M spinner.

My point is that whilst Fanz may have stated his case in a heavy handed manner (and who hasn't at some time or another?) his findings are valid. a@a frequently notes that subjectivity is a major factor, but you'd need cloth ears not to discern the differences available between these high end choices. For me, the more interesting point is that Meridian are moving up the cost ladder, yet we're still not seeing the integration of newer technologies wrt cone materials which the high end market increasingly expects. I know Bob can wring the nth degree of performance out of the current drivers, but surely better to wring the nth degree of performance out of the best of the newer high performance materials?

Ever the Meridian fan, and still aspiring to an 808i.2!

George

George, I agree with most of what you say, but will emphasize that it's no surprise that "new forum member" and "heavy-handed" don't go down particularly well, especially when superlatives like "vastly superior" flow from the keyboard. Such language doesn't help credibility, even if there is substance behind the claims.

As am I.

I'm not, but I do want apodizing upsampling in my G68...

VK, George's post asks for respect and courtesy for Meridian Fanz's views. I've read the whole of this thread through today and I have to say that I think that Meridian Fanz has tried to keep the debate to the content he's introduced in the face of some slightly emotive responses. I don't actually think he's been heavy handed (sorry, George); he has stuck to his guns about what his ears have told him. For what it's worth, I've heard Magico Mini (not the mk ii's) and V3 speakers. They are superb and it's a shame that they are so expensive in the UK. I would place the Mini's at the top of all speakers I've heard and the V3's a little ahead of the Usher Be-10's that George and I listened to.

The sad thing is that this thread has got off the subject line - why don't the moderators do more to keep it there?

George
There is an obvious leap from the "difference" you found in your listening yesterday to the "vastly superior" quote being used here.

In my travels, I have made a point of listening to as MANY Components and Systems as I possibly could, on both sides of the Pond. These set ups included Home Set Ups as well as Manufacturer "Factory" and Show Set ups

There are certain characteristic DIFFERENCES between various setups. Some of these differences are for the better and some for the worse (e.g. better Treble, not so good Mid's) Some of these differences have even tempted me to look deeper and revisit for a longer listening session to see if I wanted to pursue a change. To date, I've been tempted by various performance aspects or characteristics of some Components and Systems, but I've yet to find an overall better package for CD Music Replay

When one then adds DVD-V 96/24 Replay (about 100 discs) and DVD-A's to the mix, that is where I begin to hear "significant" differences. And that is just on 2-channel mixes

However, limiting the discussion to Redbook Music, then there are Many very competitive Components and Systems out there. However, IMHO there are none that offer the "Vast Superiority" quoted here. I would be extremely reluctant to say that ANY Meridian Speaker or Component offers "Vast" performance differences over decent �500 BookShelf speakers, never mind Speakers in Meridian's ballparks

As regards Trifield, I would also find that it is beneficial on about 40%-50% of the music that I listen to. It's very dependent on the material and sometimes even different Tracks on the same Album can benefit (or not) from Trifield

As regards Upsampling (and Resolution Enhancement) I always find this to be beneficial and not just because it is smoother

And to return to the Thread topic: While I've enjoyed the accessibility and ease of use of our Server fed "Thru house" music system for the past 3+ years now, I would always return to my 800 for CD Music replay and critical listening on our main system. There are subtle differences that I can quite easily hear and for me, these differences outweigh the accessibility and other advantages of Server based music

I think Meridian can bring something to Player end of future systems, I'm not so convinced on what they can bring to the Server or Back End

If the thread gets split up, this post obviously goes with the speaker discussion above. I'm not brave enough to start a new topic.

I got to audition the Magico V3s in the same shop as the DSP7200s. The V3s were not what I was looking for. I didn't like the bass, at least in the room in which I heard them. The imaging on them was spectacular.

The Magico Minis were on my short list for speakers in a dedicated stereo room and system. I did not get to hear them. Some day I still hope to. I have since opted for the 8Ks and an 808i.2.

It's all very subjective as stated above and the speakers' designers have different priority rankings. I really don't think it's fair to compare the Magico Minis and the 8Ks. They are absolutely different animals and you need to add equipment to the Minis to get them to produce sound. Even if you use the same source, such as the 808i.2, the Minis need amps and you have so many different options that will affect the performance. If you seek to "level the playing field" even more, the Minis will require the use of a subwoofer to obtain the bass extension of the 8Ks. If you restrict the budget, you have upwards of $40K to spend on the additional equipment for the Minis that is already included in the 8Ks. If your choice of room and/or speaker placement is not flexible, one system will "outperform" the other but the results could be the opposite in another room.

Compare all you want, but you will inevitably come up with things that the 8Ks do better and things that the Minis (with your choice of ancillary equipment) do better. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. In this example, you have two top flight companies that offer superior, first class products in the same general market. Any discussion that extends beyond general impressions or doesn't include a description of what other equipment was used simply makes no sense to me.