Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Meridian - Systems Why has the Meridian Music Server die?

The Absolute Sound test is subjective. But it shows that the megabuck transport can lose out to something that is - even if you assume the two high end servers in question is well built and thought out (and which price is reflected by the fact that it's not mass production we're talking about here) - in effect just a small part of a much cheaper PC.

I am sure that if Harley had tested a Mac mini (with TosLink) the result would have been the same. A test by the no less repeected John Atkinson in Stereophile in 2005 ago concluded that Apples Airport Express sounds "okay":

"Indeed, while I found the AirPort Express's analog output somewhat disappointing sounding, I do feel that feeding my Levinson DAC with the hub's digital output sounds "okay." Quite good, in fact.."

And:
"Some audiophiles have dissed the AirPort Express on the grounds that its digital output is not bit-accurate. However, I found that this was not the case, that the data appearing on the AE's digital output were identical in the original file."

These quotes can, of course, be used both by objectivists and subjectivists. But personally I trust Mr. Atkinsons measurements more than his subjective impressions. "Okay" probably means "I know that this is a cheap, inferior product which can't sound as good as my X times more expensive gear".

My point is a)There is scientific evidence that sound is not affected as long as the signal is kept unchanged (the important word here) in the digital domain and b)This is experienced (albeit randomly, erronous and colored by prejudices) in subjective listening tests as well.

So far from reading the comments I understand the following:
In the digital domain no differences in sound quality can occur (at the reading stage) unless bits are not read perfectly which is hardly an issue these days.
Once they have been read, buffering, re-clocking, processing (up-sampling, over-sampling per the following: ttp://www.audioholics.com/education/audio-formats-technology/upsampling-vs-oversampling-for-digital-audio, etc) can all happen in a stand alone DAC which makes the source selection easy:
Go for the cheapest source available.

So if all the above is true, M, for commercial reasons only, is selling CDP and DVD spinners and charging extra money for the dirt cheap transport in them (and the fancy box) and we were silly to buy them.
Instead if you have 568 or G68 or 861 you can buy your own source and get the same results. Only problem is you are buying a V8 engine to mow the loan...

For a Stereo lover like me a G08 with a USB which will allow me to make use of the G08 Up-Sampling, Processing, DAC with a Hard Drive as a source or a G series DAC would have done the trick but being a minority in the market this is not going to happen.

So how can M get away with machines like G06/G07/G08/808?
Why do people not buying 568 and G68 only?

People still buy CDPs and DVDPs nevertheless.

So excuse my silliness, if people buy such units why would they not buy a similar unit with a hard drive and internet connectivity which will sound the same (due to the digital processing) but will allow the ease of use without having to go to an outside source or having to buy a full blown 7.1 channel processor?
Since Hard drives are dirt cheap would you not buy a G08 that has a Hard Drive and USB (to hook your own hard drive)for $200 more than standard G08?

Just a thought.

Regards,

Doron

But again why did he not use the word "brilliant" or "as good as I've ever heard" if there truly were no difference when the Source is Digital??



Fair enough, but CRITICALLY, did he test the TIMING of those same digital bits, not just that they arrived at the DAC??

Doron,
I agree with your "why don't they...." questions, but, think it's just a matter of time. In 5-10 years, CD's will be used at about the same frequency as vinyl is today; there will be hi-fi architectures that will effectively be revolutionary by current standards.

If they are ((read perfectly OR corrected) AND (without fast jitter OR slow jitter)) AND ((passed on perfectly OR corrected) AND (without fast jitter OR slow jitter))...

@DRonor
There are TWO sides to this argument, of which who have CHOSEN to select one. It might be a good idea to go and listen yourself to see if you think that the "cheapest" source will really suit what you think is best. Go and listen with open ears and closed pockets, until you decide what it best for you

Succinctly put , it is not as simple as you've summarized (even though it may suit your pocket)

I dont' quite buy the vinyl comparison. While I understand that many prefer the sound characteristics of vinyl (maybe for nostalgic reasons), I can't understand why somebody today should want to buy an PC with 1992 specifications at a 1992 price...

The high end disc spinners are identical to the low end ones - if you take away the analogue stage. It is the analogue stage that costs money, because of components that are not mass produced and therefore expensive in the first place. And a lot of R&D goes into tweaking those components to function optimally.

The R&D in the digial domain is NOT done in small companies in the US and UK. It is done in big corporations and in uviversities all over the world. The results are used in mass production, mainly in Asia. These cheap, mass produced products are the very same that used in both in next to nothing no name DVD players and in the megabuck high end players. And in PCs, music network systems and what have you.

Why someone should be nostalgic or prefer older versions of a disc drive (I've noticed that some manufactureres even use old stock of Philips drives, presumably because they "sound better"), is beyond me. The new DVD drives are far more accurate - for the simple reason that they have to read more data than the old CD drives.

The reason a DVD player usually don't sound as good as a dedicated CD player is found in the analogue stage alone.

My old Meridian 502.20 (used as transport only with DSP6000s) used to skip a lot. Several fixes done by my local M. technician (the disc drive was re-lubricated, and even replaced completely) did not help much.

I was so annoyed that I went out and bought a (then) $200 taiwanese never heard of before-name DVD player. And lo and behold - it played all my CDs flawlessly. Through the analogue outputs it was a joke, of course. But through the coax I noticed no difference from 508 - to my big surpise (I was a believer until then...).

Later I took it further, and installed a Mac min as my Main source, with an external USB soundcard and SPDIF output. It was noisy and unreliable (after all, it was a PC, regardless of what Apple calls it), and it sounded worse than my CD/DVD spinners. This might be because of iTunes, or because og the USB/SPDIF interface not being implemented optimally - most likely a software issue.

I then invested in a Sonos music network (more money, alas...) and placed the Mac in a room far from my main system. The noise is gone, and the sound from my hard drive via CAT5 cable (wireless is not sufficient for huge files) is as good as from the discs I spin in my G91 (nice to have, but there are cheaper digital switches out there).


Have we (I include myself) wasted our money? Well. It probably made sense to buy a 800 without analogue cards ten years ago. Today it is madness. And M. recognizes this, too. As I previously wrote, they make no dedicated drives any more, just players with analogue stages built in. Neither do the other main players (with one or two exceptions) in the high end field. This is a clear signal as good as anything.

Struggling to find any audio related analogue on my G98DH - where is the analogue stage?

To those who say that transports don't (or shouldn't) differ:

I used to have a Merdian 500. 2nd generation. I loved the sound. Playing through my 568.2 into DSP8000s. Then I bought a 596 to play DVDs.

I decided to test the two to see if I could hear a difference on CDs, expecting them to be identical, so I could sell the 500 and recoup some of the money I'd spent on the 596.

The 596 was purchased as a refurd from Meridian, so my assumption is that it was working properly at the time. The 500 had also been into M for service not too long before (drive lube issue) and so ws also working properly. Both played all discs given without any problems.

Well, they sounded so different, I couldn't believe my ears. With ALL 568.2 settings identical, identical cables, etc. I could sync two discs and switch between them, my wife could tell the difference 100% of the time FROM THE OTHER ROOM! This completely blew me away. (BTW, the 596 sound was so superior to my ears - more open, greater air, etc., I gladly sold the 500 anyway).

I have also tested Airport Express digital output (Toslink) to Sonos (Coax) and the 596. The difference weren't as significant, but again, 100% of the time, my wife could single out the Airport Express as slightly inferior (this time in the same room). I don't know if the difference in digital interface (coax vs. fiber) played a part here. Since the Airport Express has no coax output, I had no other option for testing.

I have no explanation for these results (my guess is jitter levels present at the output of the devices connected to the 568.2, but I have no way of testing that theory). I simply present them as my experience.

BTW, my experience in copying CDs is that iTunes (using error correction and Apple Lossless) gets a perfect bit-for-bit copy every time (using my pristine CDs). I have repeatedly tested this using bit comparison programs and copying DTS CDs which have zero tolerance for lost bits. Never a problem. I have never felt a need to use EAC or any of the other ripping programs that take so long to work because of this. Again, my experience - YMMV.

Different technology in the 596. Multiple disc re-reads (for more exact error correction) and FIFO buffering for low jitter. I would 100% expect a 588, 59x, G08, G9x, or 80x to sound better than a 500 transport.

I can Concurr this to be true.
My 506 is eclipsed by the 596 using Digiatal out into my 518/565.

This is not to say the 506 is a poor CD player.
Its home should now be in an Analog system instead of being packed away in my loft.

If I had the room I would have 2 systems, but along came the F80.

Cheers, Chris

My 2c regarding G98DH

People tends to forget that it actually is an DVD-A transport that can put all 6ch trough the MHR interface to our Meridian processor(thats is a digital interface, if someone here is new to m)this is very rare among DVD-A players.
I've have about 100 DVD-A and similar recordings.

it can also decode movie formats internally and send it trough the MHR link and then if you have a G68 you can enjoy uppsampling of the incomming signal :-)
This will off course not directly enhance the sq. But now your G68 can do the rest of it's signal processing with an 24/96 signal, think all suround modes Trifield bass managment room compensation Volume control and speaker levels etc etc.
The G68 processor can not uppsample & decode dolby/dts at same time.

And the MHR inteface is said to be "better" than plain vanilla SPDIF ?
this can of course not be confirmed as only Meridian now how MHR is working.

It is also an video processor/scaler with analog inputs for your tv boxes etc, if you have a setup like mine. With a projektor then don't want to run 3 cables to the pj when one(HDMI) is enough.
But as has been said before M faces stiff competition regarding Video processors. So this might not be its strongest feature.

So from my perspective it's the only player i can have, as i need DVD-A playback and uses an G68 processor.

I also have a squeezebox... the jury is still out on what sounds best.
It might be a tiny difference that makes the G98 sound a little better, but if only ever listen to CD's it's a very high price for it.

/Mikael

Ps have some mercy with my not to perfect english