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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,975 Likes: 198
Vogon Civil Servant
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Vogon Civil Servant
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,975 Likes: 198 |
I posed the question to the Mothership. They replied... The 218 decodes and renders MQA in both analogue and digital audio.
Not an Actor, nor married to Jamie-Lee Curtis.
#1: DSP5200SE|DSW.2|218|210|506.2|504
#2: Prime/PSU|SOtM sMS-200 Mini NEO SE|Focal Stellia
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,733 Likes: 88
Don't Panic!
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Don't Panic!
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,733 Likes: 88 |
Well, that's incorrect. Period. The 218, nor any other software or hardware decoder, is allowed to output rendered digital audio. Rendering is DAC specific so it occurs in the 218's DACs, but it's only the first unfold (at 2x rate) which is output digitally (with, one assumes, the buried signalling information to allow a downstream renderer to render it).
Who told you that?
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,975 Likes: 198
Vogon Civil Servant
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Vogon Civil Servant
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,975 Likes: 198 |
Not an Actor, nor married to Jamie-Lee Curtis.
#1: DSP5200SE|DSW.2|218|210|506.2|504
#2: Prime/PSU|SOtM sMS-200 Mini NEO SE|Focal Stellia
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950 Likes: 19
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
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President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950 Likes: 19 |
I would say it's marketing truth - whilst technically correct, it does not mention the omitted features that make MQA special - ie DAC compensation and rendering to very high resolutions - the former only being relevant to a DAC which 218 is not being used as in this case.
My take is that digital out decodes and renders limited to max 96/24 (depending on original sample rate) and does not perform DAC compensation - obviously no DAC is involved at this point.
It's up to a downstream device, such as SE speakers to take MQA to a higher level and render a previously decoded MQA signal to full sample rate (or limitation of the DAC) and apply DAC compensation.
In case of 218/SE, only decode should take place in 218 as, at present, SE cannot take a partially rendered output, but maybe in the future.
However, with 218/non SE DSP, the 218 could allow the DSP to output up to 96/24 but without any DAC compensation, ie a non optimal MQA signal, but better than no MQA.
Imho
Meridian owner since 1992
Prime & PSU, Focal Elear headphones, Roon (ROCK 8Gi5 NUC), Explorer 1 & 2, F80. 200/203, various Sonos (via Roon).
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,733 Likes: 88
Don't Panic!
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Don't Panic!
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,733 Likes: 88 |
I would say it's marketing truth - whilst technically correct, it does not mention the omitted features that make MQA special - ie DAC compensation and rendering to very high resolutions - the former only being relevant to a DAC which 218 is not being used as in this case. I disagree, Chris Cope made a mistake in his response. There is nothing in the first decode which is "rendering". The 2x MQA Core digital output from the first decode in the 218 is passed to the 218's DACs which render it. The same digital output is passed out on the digital outputs and is rendered by downstream DACs.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950 Likes: 19
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
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President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950 Likes: 19 |
And I would argue that it is not incorrect to call the process of converting the encoded 44/48k MQA stream to up to a 96/24 stream 'rendering'. It may not be 'rendering' by what many think by MQA rendering, ie in the DAC, but, even if conversion to 2x takes place as part of decode or a separate step, it's still a conversion and therefor technically a render, albeit not to analogue form within a DAC which most will think of as an MQA render.
It's not the first time that ambiguity has been exploited for marketing and I am sure will not be the last. Devil is in the detail.
Imho
Meridian owner since 1992
Prime & PSU, Focal Elear headphones, Roon (ROCK 8Gi5 NUC), Explorer 1 & 2, F80. 200/203, various Sonos (via Roon).
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,733 Likes: 88
Don't Panic!
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Don't Panic!
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,733 Likes: 88 |
On a Meridian forum, perhaps it's best to use rendering as Bob and MQA use it? To avoid ambiguity. Goodness knows there's too much of it.
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,975 Likes: 198
Vogon Civil Servant
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Vogon Civil Servant
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,975 Likes: 198 |
I sought further clarification ... Let’s focus on the SpeakerLink output from the 218. In its basic terms the 218 will decode to ‘MQA core’ ready for transmission via SpeakerLink. In the case of the M6, it will receive this audio signal (via MHR) and play the 24/96 or 24/88 MQA signal. If however you have a Special Edition (SE) Meridian DSP loudspeaker, it will then have the ability to render the signal to a higher resolution as the SE loudspeaker is able to achieve this.
As you can see in both instances MQA is being played back so you will benefit from MQA in either scenario. Yes it’s true that you will receive higher performance from SE loudspeakers but you are also receiving a better audio transmission on non-SE Meridian loudspeakers, thus utilising the benefits of MQA when using a 218.
You are always subject to the capabilities of any audio system but it’s certainly worth remembering that Meridian Loudspeakers have been designed to work as a highly tuned, high performing system. We ensure the components used in our electronic and loudspeaker design compliments the final product as a complete package. The DSP is carefully crafted to suit its requirements and the hardware it is driving allowing you to enjoy the music. The further question he couldn’t answer for me: on my Mac Mini what would be the result of Amarra4 Luxe’s initial MQA unfolding to the 218 (via Meridian 210), to the M6.
Not an Actor, nor married to Jamie-Lee Curtis.
#1: DSP5200SE|DSW.2|218|210|506.2|504
#2: Prime/PSU|SOtM sMS-200 Mini NEO SE|Focal Stellia
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,036
Pan-dimensional being
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Pan-dimensional being
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,036 |
One thing remains for certain, which is that the second part of MQA, the final ‘rendering’ can only occur as part of a D/A conversion process.
If the signal remains digital from source through to a pair of DSP speakers, then it can only be done via the DAC of SE spec speakers. If a ‘first unfold’ MQA signal is going from a 210 into a 218 then it has to go in digitally, logically via SpeakerLink. The only place a ‘rendered’ signal can then come from is surely the 218 analogue outputs? Therefore, the 218 is still passing the first unfold MQA signal unmolested to the DSP speakers which can’t ‘render’ it (unless they are SE). Someone will understand this better than me, but my limited understanding can’t envisage it any other way.
It’s disappointing that It’s actually more difficult to get a satisfactory MQA solution from Meridian than most other manufacturers who have decided to support it.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 169
Hitchhiker
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Hitchhiker
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 169 |
Rendered is a generic term in the world at large. Rendered in MQA world refers to the last stage of D to A conversion with DAC specific rendering. Lets all call it "MQA render" then both worlds are happy 
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