Meridian Unplugged - Powered by MrTechGuy.co.uk Forums Discussion Off Topic Can't get away from snake oil

That may be true, but the "other good instruments" in question would have been Guarneri, Amati, Guadagnini (sp?) etc, which also go regularly into the many 100s of 1000s.

In other words, not a matter of a �5 cable being as competent as a �1000 one, as in hifi snakeoil.

And of course (some of) the journalism.... So many people these days believe literally everything they read on paper / in the interweb (!) & see on tv unfortunately, so if a "reputable" publication writes that a cable changes sound immeasurably, it must be right ! To butcher a quote quite unashamedly, we should of course keep an open mind about things - but not so open that our brains fall out !
In these cases the explanation is already relatively well understood - the "sound" that an instrument creates is related to it's resonant frequencies, which is directly related to it's construction & the material properties involved.
If you change the metals or coatings used on a sax (as mentioned at the beginning of this thread) then you change the resonant frequency by fractions of a % as the material density & stiffness is only marginally changed (relatively) - almost certainly inaudibly - but it could be calcluated & related to the sound produced if you wanted to do that.
With materials that are relatively low-density, such as wood, you have a different scenario as the material isn't necessarily homogenous and isn't "made" in controlled conditions (seemingly identical woods can be very different structurally) - but the % differences in density & stiffnesses between various woods can be tremendous - which would be the engineering reason behind Meridian selecting very dense & slow-growing wood - and possibly the "lucky find" of Stradivarius when he discovered he could construct violins of a specific & repeatable type by using a specific variety of wood.
All IMHO, but backed-up with some well-understood Engineering principals - feel free to tear my post apart !

Snake oil = adding or removing elements to the signal, signal path and/or sound in such a way that it becomes apparent to the one who is sensitive to notice. It�s not about making something better -what�s not there can simply not be added later on like making a 200,- worth piece of equipement sound like a 20.000,- piece-, it�s customising to your own preferences.

So MrMarbach is right, professional musicians often have and really can appreciate expensive instruments. Simple reason to me is a 1+1=2, meaning the master craftmanship of the instrument is combined with the master level of playing the instrument:

1) I recently read about a Strad that was examined using a modern MRI scan, cause obviously it was too expensive to take it apart for the study. The scans showed that 7 different types of wood were used to build it. They suspect that these types and the places where they were used, attribute to the �sound� of the violin. The violin builders absolutely understood the violin itself and mastered the technique of building it.

2) so we�ll also need to factor in the human element in the equasion then. The not too expensive violin of your 8-year old can produce a lovely sound when its been played by a professional violinist. You will never have thought that that inexpensive one was capable of doing that. It�s because of the experience and practise of years of training. When the same violinist has a very expensive one, absolute magic can happen when combined with the delicate handling by the musician, applying different strokes in various angles to create the sound.

People in the other camp are also true, saying they can�t tell a difference in sound by built quality.

1) In a recent study on music lovers the following was found. When they were hooked up to a CAT-scan and listened to their favorite music, the scan indicated activity in one little particular spot. That little spot in their brain was positively effected producing endorfines the same as when other test persons were given hard drugs. A careful conclusion could say that for some people listening to music is addictive or better, they enjoyed it so much that they were on cloud No. 7.

2) The analogy is that some people are very susceptible for a change in sound, they could indicate the difference by a tickle in their pleasure spot, others are not.

The drawback of this in instruments and equipment, is that the human mind can only �remember� a sound for 30 seconds, making A/B test very difficult, hence the 1 million $ price has been claimed but never been rewarded.

So why would it be so hard to believe that hifi companies can also make a difference. Some of them have gone through a lot of research, experimenting with different materials, spent boatloads on listening to finally master the technique of creating a piece of equipement. Well just as the same of the violin builders, but then with modern material and technology.

The reason is the number of people able to tell the difference is so much smaller than the group of people who can�t. The logical conclusion is to hype it up, spend lots of money on advertisments, (sponsered) reviews by industry critics. This may be seen as a form of �education�, where the reviewer writes where and what the differences are, for the readers to mark this in their subconcience and flag it for true if they hear the same if they demoed type X of brand Z. This will take the reader to a (slightly) higher level of mastering the art of listening.

Meridian masters the technique of bits and bites profoundly. Their DSP philosophy is based upon computer chips that run internal software. With a push on a button speakers can be set from small to big. Also using the MRC program one is able to set the sound to one�s preference. In itself Meridian is also using �snake oil�, hidden in software and hardware, it is adjusting the sound by adding or removing sonic elements. Some call it their sonic signature. M is not alone, many respected hifi companies have an aclaimed signature.

People not having a fine processor or DSP speakers, do the same by physically swapping equipement/cables etc around to alter the sound a little. If not by a push on a keyboard or remote control, all of a sudden it is called �snake oil�. The fact they have a good hearing, makes it apparent for them that the sound has changed. Just like listening to the concert violinist playing first the 200-dollar-made-in-China and afterwards a Strad violin.

For the ones that do not have a trained hearing (or have no impact on their pleasure spot in their brain), the acclaimed �difference� is often said to be snake oil, also when it concerns expensive cables, dempers, equipement etc. It would be true if they would say �I can�t tell the difference�. But I believe that�s not right, they just haven�t mastered the art of listening.

A big problem though with listening impressions is, when we hear something out of the ordinary, the normal language we use is not suited to describe what we hear. Personal words like �rich�, �warm�, �laidback� are very personal and can be interpreted by others very differently. So to conclude on snake oil and the effects:

Alicia Keys says: �the keys on a piano are black and white, but you can hear a million different colors�.

Just my opinion, no prun intended to anyone.

Alex

Alex,
Not sure your definition of snake oil is the "traditional" use of the term - it's certainly not my understanding !

Sorry for jumping in on this thread but I just wanted to comment on Nic's remarks.

I can't agree with him enough about what he said in the above snippet. I used to play the classical guitar and the musician is keenly aware of differences in tone and touch which a listener would never hear. And, perhaps more importantly, how the instrument responds to your playing - some instruments seem to come alive and are totally responsive and open up a different world of colours and possibilities. These might seem minor to a listener but IMO they profoundly affect how a musician plays - and that is often very apparent.

"snake oil"

Comes from the 19th-century American practice of selling cure-all elixirs in traveling medicine shows. Snake oil salesmen would falsely claim that the potions would cure any ailments.

Now-a-days it refers to fake products.

"why did you buy that snake oil? it does absolutely nothing!"


Regards,
Carl

You're right about the false promisses. Must be the language barrier, me Manuelle from Spain... :-)

Completely agree and it's something of a source of frustration for me. As a musician, you have a physical connection with the instrument while you're playing and hearing it. The magic is in your hands and/or breath. It is something that cannot be captured by a recording. As such, you will never get to hear what your performance truly sounds like because you can't experience the live event without participating in it.

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/placebo-effect

Avii

My car always drives better when I've washed it.

Same with any addition to hifi/camera /computer imho

Regarding Fazioli pianos v Steinways I asked the opinion of the piano tuner at the Cheltenham Music Festival (they have 1 Faz,3 Steinway D's).
He said it was too soon to tell (its 18 months old)
However he did say the life of a concert Steinway D was just 10 yrs (all that transportation and pounding performance)

Yes and no. I know Steinways 20 years old which are wonderful for concert and recording, but they have to have be wonderfully maintained over their life to last that long.

The problem with Fazioli is that in my experience (more than 15 years) of playing them in several different countries, however well kept they are they always end up sounding and feeling tired before their time.

On the theme of Snake Oil I found this.

http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/audioquest-ethernet-cables/

Audio quest Ethernet cable designed to extract money from the unwary IMHO but I could be wrong.
Any thoughts from the network experts here. Chris