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#275231 - 2018-04-17 16:45 Re: Power Conditioning DSP8000SE (Part 2) [Re: Ogri]
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 136
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 136
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Originally Posted By Ogri
Could you run through this again, is this bridging?
No, I don't believe it is bridging, I've included the details below... Incidentally, I should be a little more specific and say I am running Roon ROCK, but the principles remain the same.

If you have two ethernet ports, ROCK will display both interfaces in the web config page and allows you to setup the first (labelled 'Ethernet') as your main network and the second (labelled 'Ethernet 2') as the link to the 818's ID41 input. Testing seems to show, if you set these ports up the other way around, Roon won't be able to talk to the ID41.

The fact I am unable to see the ID41 from the main network suggests it isn't bridging, but treating the two as separate networks. So the only ethernet traffic I have on the ID41's network is the music being played, nothing else.

If you want to try this, the recommendation is to setup the second ethernet with:

IP 5.1.1.1
Netmast 255.255.255.0
Router/Gateway: blank
DNS Server: blank

and the ID41 the same, but with an IP address of 5.1.1.2

Hope this helps,
Jeremy


Meridian 818v3, DSP 7200SE's (upgraded), Roon
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#275247 - 2018-04-17 20:20 Re: Power Conditioning DSP8000SE (Part 2) [Re: Jeremy A-H]
Registered: 2016-05-04
Posts: 142
Ogri Offline
Hitchhiker
Ogri Offline
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Registered: 2016-05-04
Posts: 142
Loc: London, UK
Thanks, I don’t have Rock. I understood a switch was necessary for traffic routing, unless there was “bridging” by the device. Not having such a device, I haven’t had a play.

If it increases SQ, I’m surprised it’s not discussed a little more here (unless I missed something?). I’m aware of the idea being well discussed elsewhere but I’ve not had a play. Interesting. Thanks.

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#275248 - 2018-04-17 20:45 Re: Power Conditioning DSP8000SE (Part 2) [Re: Ogri]
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 136
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker
Jeremy A-H Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 136
Loc: Hampshire, UK
I was very sceptical about it improving sound quality and therefore hadn't tried it before now (and, for all I know, without the other upgrades I've just made, there may not have been any noticeable difference), so I'm not surprised this doesn't come up much (it's also dependant on having two network interfaces, which will further reduce the numbers of people trying this).

There is some support behind this theory, though, as Meridian said noise coming from outside components was something they've worked hard to reduce the influence of and many of the high-end music servers provide two ethernet ports (and some even recommend USB over ethernet) for this reason.

As always, your mileage may vary!


Meridian 818v3, DSP 7200SE's (upgraded), Roon
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#275514 - Today at 12:43 Re: Power Conditioning DSP8000SE (Part 2) [Re: ncpl]
Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 1,690
3dit0r Online content
Knows where his towel is
3dit0r Online content
Knows where his towel is

Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 1,690
Loc: South UK
Originally Posted By ncpl
A long time ago I played around with some after market power leads and concluded that they resulted in a different sound but I didn't prefer it (see here). I saved some money smile

In the years since, my system has changed as has my room. At the heart of the system is an 808v6 and 8KSE DSP's. Years ago I installed a dedicated consumer unit and ring main circuit but these are on walls where my system used to be. That is now 180degs around the wrong way for where it now sits. The power for the 8k's was therefore from an original house ring main in the main consumer unit. I decided to look at what I could do about this and put back a bit of separation for power to the system.

First up was installation of 2 new dedicated radial lines to each side of the room where the DSP's are located. These lines come from the dedicated consumer unit. One for each DSP only. "Why not?" I thought.

Around the same time I had noted the comments from Cleop and Crion on this topic.

I gave Shunyata UK a call to see what they had and what they might advise for DSP's. I talked at length with Guillaume Boyer and he put me in touch with the tech guys in the US. They had a lot of installs with Meridian gear and spoke well of the combo.

One of the first things they advised was to install the Euro/Schuko sockets if possible. These are solid connections and importantly run with no fuse in the plugs. Many of you will know these plugs in the UK as M ships gear with both UK and Euro cables. My electrician checked this and said it was legit so he used Schuko rather than UK sockets.

Guillaume advised he had some Denali 2000T units coming over and he would be happy to let me give them a go. It took a while and in the meantime I was able to test the stock M Euro lead vs some Russ Andrews Reference cables I had. I reterminated them with Wattgate Schuko heads for the test. Worth noting the RA plugs are built to last. Connections are all soldered inside those. Nice. Overall I think the RA cables performed well. Swapping back and forth made a small improvement over the stock cable but not huge.

Late Spring and the Denali's arrived. I asked for 2 units as the location of my DSP's and furniture means that I cannot really run one unit between the DSP's. Guillaume also lent me some Delta NR cables to test against the various leads I had been using. Denali uses a C19 high-current input connector so I modified a couple of Euro cables with new Wattgate plugs.

So, I ran with this for a couple of months. I was open to there being some effect or zero effect. Nothing taken for granted.

I ran several different combinations so I could try to isolate what did or didn't produce any SQ effects.

For example:-

Stock cables vs Delta NR cables (no Denali)
Stock cables into and out of Denali
Mixture of cables with Denali
Delta NR with Denali

Running demos over many weeks/months is a really good thing. There is definitely something about long listening over many styles of music, times of day, moods, weathers etc. I think the brain really does "tune in" to a sound/SQ and it isn't a quick process. However, once you have tuned in it is easy to swap between setups to notice the differences.

So, what is the result? It was actually very easy to hear a difference. With the Denali's between DSP and wall socket the clarity from the DSP's significantly and repeatably improved. The 3-D soundstage seemed to lock into place better. Everything seemed to be placed somewhere specific in front of me. Bass was clearer; voices and strings more credible and cymbals seemed to decay longer. On several tracks I did hear some new things especially low level sounds and really far back in the mix. There are probably a load more magazine type comments I could use but hopefully you get the gist.

I did several sessions with my trusted Mrs L and she picked 100% when I had Denali in or out of the system. She couldn't see what I was doing nor understood what I was doing when I made changes. It still sounded like my hifi but simply better in all areas I focussed on. Weirdly I was hoping she would hear no changes and I could then convince myself I was suffering from some expectation bias.

What about the cables? Having left the Denali's running with Delta NR for a few weeks, I swapped back to the stock cables. I was rather hoping that the Denali were creating most of the improvement and that I could stick with my existing cables. However, the Russ Andrews Ref and stock cables with the Denali just didn't sound as good. Again Mrs L's ears picked this 100% of the swaps I did and she had no idea what I was changing. I then compared Delta NR vs stock cable into DSP and the difference is clear. I could demonstrate that both cables and Denali are having a positive impact.

In the Jan 2017 post I referenced above Crion shared some of the Shunyata videos. These are interesting but maybe my home is different. A few weeks ago and at the end of all my testing, Guillaume bought round one of the noise detection devices (Entech Powerline Noise Analsyer) he'd borrowed from the Shunyata team who had been in the UK for a visit. We tested them on my setup. Here are the results in short video clips:-

Video 1...plugged into one of my new sockets and set to about 100 on the volume scale on the handheld unit. This shows that there IS noise on my lines even though they come from a dedicated consumer unit. This is probably not a surprise as we know power delivery to my house will be noisy but still I was a bit disappointed. Settings were left exactly the same for all other tests for comparison.


Video 2...same socket but a Denali plugged into the OTHER socket. The noise level drops by about 15 units (exact same volume setting). This means that even though these are SEPARATE lines the effect of a Denali on one line is evident on the other as they meet back at the consumer unit. This was quite a surprise and perhaps goes to show how much our circuits are interacting with each other.


Video 3...what about the output from the Denali? This was quite a shock.


Now this is not a fully scientific test with spectrum analysers etc but it is just a way to audibly demonstrate whether something is or is not happening. I am glad I did this at the end of the tests/demos as it endorsed my findings rather than influenced them up front.

So, to reference back to my 2005 post where I wanted to know what might be causing a change in SQ, this time I had a pretty good idea from both extensive periods of listening (both casual and in "test mode") along with some indicative device measurements. Noise on the power feed into the DSP's is a very real thing (in my house at least) and reducing it is very beneficial.

I started out with a notion that I had given my system a pretty clean power feed and that the SQ from the Anniversary system would be hard to improve. The starting point is a very fine SQ.

I conclude that even this system is impacted by mains noise and I can say with confidence that the effect of cleaning that is very obvious. I had no idea just how much difference it makes.

I am really impressed with the Denali units and also the NR cables. They do seem to do what they claim and to the ears that we have in this house that is a very good thing.

Thanks to Cleop and Crion for their earlier posts. Thanks also to Guillaume who was so patient with me as I slowly went through my test cycles over many months.

Hope this is of interest to others who might wonder if there is still room for improvement in their setups.


Only just come across this. Good post! Ive been using Schucko sockets on my Russ Andrews power cables for years (which I changed to Wattgates and can certainly corroborate yiur finding that RA cables are built kike tanks, and rather difficult to work with and reterminate!) I also use a dedicated ring main for the aystem. There is certainky a difference and I’m also an advocate that long term impressions are far more useful than short term or quick A/B.

I wondered if you’d tried RA mains filtration? I have various purifiers and silencers, etc., which again made things sound better. RA also have a device called the ‘noise sniffer’ which you can hire for a small fee to hear crud on the mains (and the difference in removing it).

Are you tempted by ‘balanced mains’ units...?


818v3, DSP7200.2, Oppo BDP-95, Sony VPL-HW55ES projector, Kimber Mains Cables, Russ Andrews Torlyte Equipment Rack and Mains Filtration, GIK Acoustics Room Treatments
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