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#273077 - 2018-02-13 03:28 DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully?
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Does the DSP8000SE decode MQA fully (ie first unfold and rendering)?

If I see MQA *** on the front panel, does this mean that it not only detected an MQA stream but it is actually fully decoding it? Or is this just showing metadata?

Thanks!

Miguel


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#273078 - 2018-02-13 04:11 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: miguelito]
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Rendering only, the decode needs to be done elsewhere eg 218, 808v6, 818v3.


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#273080 - 2018-02-13 06:44 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: Ratbert]
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Welcome to this forum. Thanks for posting the pictures as wel, very nice and tastefull set up you got there.
Out of curiosity, are you contemplating MQA and or 8000SE's?

Cheers!


System 1: MC200, 818v3, DSP7200SE
System 2: boxed (DSP5000.1, Monarchy DIP24/96, Squeezebox Duet.)
Office: MS200, STAX SRM-323II, SR303
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#273095 - 2018-02-13 11:45 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: JaapJan]
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My question was for a friend who owns MC600 + 861v8 + DSP8000SE. He tells me that his system cannot decode MQA - even though his speakers say "MQA" on the display, it is apparently not decoding it.

After some digging I read that the "Se" version of the speakers (which he has) CAN fully decode MQA. But the information is unclear as MQA has the first unfold, then the rendering stages.

I would like to know what is it that the DSP8000SE can do exactly.

Me personally, I have a dCS Rossini + Rossini clock. It decodes MQA fully.

Miguel


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#273099 - 2018-02-13 12:15 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: miguelito]
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Hi,

The SE DSP speakers are MQA renders, the MQA decoding (first unfold) needs to be performed by a suitable Meridian source (e.g. 218, 808.6, 818.3).

Maybe one day the Meridian Sooloos system will be able to do this, but I'd recommend your friend does not bank on it.

I think it's more likely the 861 will eventualy support MQA decoding (which might be limited to DIRECT mode only?), but how long is a piece of string.

Regards,
Carl


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#273100 - 2018-02-13 12:15 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: miguelito]
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The 861v8 cannot decode or pass MQA.


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#273105 - 2018-02-13 13:37 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: miguelito]
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The 8000SE info on M's website is a bit sparse w.r.t. MQA decoding (understatement). There are users who use the 2nd input of the 8k to drive an MQA source bypassing the 861. There is a bit of set up required but it can be done fairly easily with the various MSR config controls and 861 setup (phantom 861 source that calls D2 rather than D1 etc)

So, with your friend's particular setup I would add a 218 into 8kSE D2. The results of full render in the 8kSE can be quite spectacular. If your friend has set up well and is very familiar with his 8k sound then comparisons are easy to do. The difference is pretty clear.

Relative to the $$$8k/861/MC600 it is a small outlay... or at least loan one to test it out.


Rgds,
Nick

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#273106 - 2018-02-13 13:44 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: Carl]
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Originally Posted By Carl
The SE DSP speakers are MQA renders, the MQA decoding (first unfold) needs to be performed by a suitable Meridian source (e.g. 218, 808.6, 818.3).
What about using Roon to do the first unfold (support for this is imminent) and then playing to the 861v8 via Sooloos connection (which Roon supports)?

Would this work?

My point is: if I deliver first-unfolded signal to the 861v8, and the signal path to the speaker is bit-perfect, the speaker should be able to render properly.

Thank you.


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#273108 - 2018-02-13 14:04 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: ncpl]
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Any thoughts on why the speakers are indicating MQA?

Brian


Main: G65, MD600, MS600, 218, 598DP, HD621, DSP5200SE, DSP5200HCSE, M6 & D1500.
System 2: G91A, MS200, DSP5000 (96/24v1), DSP3300.
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#273109 - 2018-02-13 14:45 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: bxd]
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Originally Posted By bxd
Any thoughts on why the speakers are indicating MQA?
No, they shouldn't be. That sounds implausible.


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#273110 - 2018-02-13 14:48 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: VirusKiller]
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I guess the input name could be set to MQA.


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#273113 - 2018-02-13 15:38 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: miguelito]
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Originally Posted By miguelito
What about using Roon to do the first unfold (support for this is imminent) and then playing to the 861v8 via Sooloos connection (which Roon supports)?
Would this work?
My point is: if I deliver first-unfolded signal to the 861v8, and the signal path to the speaker is bit-perfect, the speaker should be able to render properly.

The 861 is not MQA aware, so even with it in DIRECT mode, the DSP in the 861 (SPL calibration, base management, room correction) will corrupt the MQA signal, so what comes out is no longer a MQA source frown

It's possible that Meridian will update the 861 at some point, but I'd not hang my hat on it.

The other issue (and I'm not 100% on this) is that I believe the SE DSP will only render MQA that comes from a Meridian SpeakerLink source.

If you friend wishes to feed the SE with MQA today ... then the practical answer would be to add a Meridian 218 between the 861v8 and the DSP SE.

Regards,
Carl

* the 218 has a SpeakerLink pass-though mode, to route the output of the 861v8 to the speakers when the process is used. Otherwise it's the 218 acting as a Sooloos endpoint / MQA decoder that would be driving the SE's.

It's not a great situation for 861 owners at present ... I'm sitting on fence (with my 861v6 and 8Ks) till this is resolved or I get itchy feet and look at other processor options.

Trust that helps.
Regards,
Carl



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#273116 - 2018-02-13 16:17 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: bxd]
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Originally Posted By bxd
Any thoughts on why the speakers are indicating MQA?
Someone told my friend it was via metadata. I find it hard to believe that Meridian would show you MQA on the display if it is not decoding MQA.


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#273117 - 2018-02-13 16:23 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: Carl]
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Originally Posted By Carl
The 861 is not MQA aware, so even with it in DIRECT mode, the DSP in the 861 (SPL calibration, base management, room correction) will corrupt the MQA signal, so what comes out is no longer a MQA source frown
Ok, I get it. Even volume control, if done digitally in the 861, would corrupt the MQA encoding.

Quote:
If you friend wishes to feed the SE with MQA today ... then the practical answer would be to add a Meridian 218 between the 861v8 and the DSP SE.
Unless the streaming is happening directly to the 218, I presume the DSP happening in the 861 previously would corrupt the signal, no?

Thank you.

As a side-note, it's a real bummer that so much Meridian equipment has such complexities with MQA. I would have thought Meridian of all brands would immediately be MQA enabled through and through. With my Rossini, I not only have full MQA decoding, but I also have the ability to control volume digitally from Roon. Amazing.


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#273118 - 2018-02-13 16:28 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: miguelito]
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If someone has a little bit of patience, could you explain to me what the configuration with a 218 would be like? Currently my friend uses MC600->861v8->DSP8000se. I would like him to be able to decode MQA and render on the 8k's.

Can someone please explain how the 218 - which doesn't seem to be a replacement for the 861v8 as far as I can tell - would come into this picture?

Thx!


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#273119 - 2018-02-13 16:29 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: miguelito]
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Meridian 2 channel is perfect. In your friends case replace or add ro the 861 for a 818v3 or 218

Cheers!


System 1: MC200, 818v3, DSP7200SE
System 2: boxed (DSP5000.1, Monarchy DIP24/96, Squeezebox Duet.)
Office: MS200, STAX SRM-323II, SR303
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#273120 - 2018-02-13 16:38 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: JaapJan]
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Originally Posted By JaapJan
Meridian 2 channel is perfect. In your friends case replace or add ro the 861 for a 818v3 or 218

Replacing the 861 with an 818 is clear (although my friend has the 861 bc he has a multichannel system).

What I don't understand is how the 218 comes in, as it is not a replacement for the 861 as far as I can tell.


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#273121 - 2018-02-13 16:42 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: miguelito]
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#273122 - 2018-02-13 16:52 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: Ratbert]
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Originally Posted By Ratbert
I guess the input name could be set to MQA.

Yes, good suggestion.

Brian


Main: G65, MD600, MS600, 218, 598DP, HD621, DSP5200SE, DSP5200HCSE, M6 & D1500.
System 2: G91A, MS200, DSP5000 (96/24v1), DSP3300.
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#273126 - 2018-02-13 17:26 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: miguelito]
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Originally Posted By miguelito
Ok, I get it. Even volume control, if done digitally in the 861, would corrupt the MQA encoding.
Not really. Even though 861 is often the system controller it only sends volume commands to the DSP speakers. The actual volume is attenuated inside the speaker after any MQA processing. You can also send similar volume commands via RS232, home auto systems etc.

When Roon sends volume commands to Meridian systems it is also just sending the same Vol+ Vol- instruction. That works very well like your Rossini.

Originally Posted By miguelito
As a side-note, it's a real bummer that so much Meridian equipment has such complexities with MQA. I would have thought Meridian of all brands would immediately be MQA enabled through and through. With my Rossini, I not only have full MQA decoding, but I also have the ability to control volume digitally from Roon. Amazing.
No disagreement from anyone here about that.

I haven't heard the Rossini yet. How are you finding it with various formats and MQA decoding?


Rgds,
Nick

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#273129 - 2018-02-13 18:01 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: ncpl]
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Originally Posted By ncpl
Even though 861 is often the system controller it only sends volume commands to the DSP speakers. The actual volume is attenuated inside the speaker after any MQA processing. You can also send similar volume commands via RS232, home auto systems etc.
Ok got it. So then my question is whether it is possible to defeat all DSP in the 861 and thus enable this chain to work with Roon (when first unfold is available) to allow MQA on this guy's (not cheap) Meridian system.

Quote:
I haven't heard the Rossini yet. How are you finding it with various formats and MQA decoding?
The Rossini is gorgeous. Tonality that pulls your attention from anything else and makes you love what you're hearing. I came from EMMLabs to Rossini (+clock) and I was so delighted. Magical. Additionally, given that my integrated (Audio Note Kondo Ongaku) doesn't have a remote, the volume control on the Rossini (which I use to tweak volume down just a smidgen) is a real advantage.

And to add to your question: Gorgeous with every source - Redbook, DSD, MQA, you name it.


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#273131 - 2018-02-13 18:20 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: miguelito]
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Quote:
If you friend wishes to feed the SE with MQA today ... then the practical answer would be to add a Meridian 218 between the 861v8 and the DSP SE.
Unless the streaming is happening directly to the 218, I presume the DSP happening in the 861 previously would corrupt the signal, no?[/quote]The 218 is also a Sooloos streaming endpoint .. when using it in that mode the 861 is not in the loop.


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#273132 - 2018-02-13 18:22 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: miguelito]
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Originally Posted By miguelito
So then my question is whether it is possible to defeat all DSP in the 861 and thus enable this chain to work with Roon (when first unfold is available) to allow MQA on this guy's (not cheap) Meridian system.
It is not possible at present, hence my suggestion of adding the 218.


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#273133 - 2018-02-13 18:54 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: Carl]
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Ok got it. So the setup would be 861 -> 218 (via the SpeakerLink in) -> DSP8000SE, and one would select the 218 as endpoint for Roon, without any Roon DSP, having the 218 unfold, and the 8k render.

Is this right?

Thanks


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#273134 - 2018-02-13 19:00 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: miguelito]
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Yep... that is correct. The 218 is either an endpoint (zone) in its own right or it supports the 861 to handle the LR channels in an MC setup.


Rgds,
Nick

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#273144 - 2018-02-14 02:22 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: ncpl]
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Thanks all for the help. My friend bought a 218 to put between the 861 and the 8k’s.


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#273149 - 2018-02-14 08:04 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: miguelito]
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Ok. Let us know how it works out.


Rgds,
Nick

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#273156 - 2018-02-14 11:03 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: ncpl]
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#273201 - 2018-02-15 10:34 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: Carl]
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Originally Posted By Carl
Originally Posted By miguelito
So then my question is whether it is possible to defeat all DSP in the 861 and thus enable this chain to work with Roon (when first unfold is available) to allow MQA on this guy's (not cheap) Meridian system.
It is not possible at present, hence my suggestion of adding the 218.
Suppose:
Roon > MS600 > DSP SE

Is it possible to defeat all DSP in the MS600 and thus enable this chain to work with Roon (when first unfold is available)?
Will the SE speaker be able to do full rendering?

SL

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#273202 - 2018-02-15 10:58 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: Springlike]
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Originally Posted By Springlike
Is it possible to defeat all DSP in the MS600 and thus enable this chain to work with Roon (when first unfold is available)?
Yes, set Audio Output: Digital to "Direct"

Originally Posted By Springlike
Will the SE speaker be able to do full rendering?
As I understand it, currently no: the speaker needs to be "told" to render by a Meridian MQA decoder via SpeakerLink.


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#273203 - 2018-02-15 11:00 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: Springlike]
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That is a great question and I don't think anyone knows yet.

I guess if someone could fire an SPDIF signal from the Tidal desktop app into an SE speaker we might find out.

Essentially, will an SE speaker render from any 1st unfold device ?


Rgds,
Nick

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#273205 - 2018-02-15 11:33 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: ncpl]
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Originally Posted By ncpl
Essentially, will an SE speaker render from any 1st unfold device ?
As I just posted, I have been told "no", because it was never envisioned that renderable MQA would ever be output unencrypted over SPDIF. In other words SE loudspeakers were always envisioned as part of a SE + 818v3/808v6 (and subsequently 218) system.

It wouldn't surprise me if this situation changes at some point.


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#273206 - 2018-02-15 11:51 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: VirusKiller]
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Originally Posted By VirusKiller
...the speaker needs to be "told" to render by a Meridian MQA decoder via SpeakerLink.
Perhaps Roon could do the "telling", and that could be passed through the end-point "Direct" to the SE speakers over SL. Is that at least possible in theory? Whether or not it will work that way does seem to be unknown. What a nice present it would be.

SL

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#273209 - 2018-02-15 13:11 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: Springlike]
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Not going to happen, I'm afraid. For one thing, the MS200 and MS600 don't support MHR.

*IF* you have a renderable SPDIF source, you'd still need a firmware update in the speakers so that they can recognize MQA by themselves.

Are there actually any post-first-unfold renderable MQA SPDIF sources out there? Would need to connect one to a 218 or 8x8 to check.


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Edited by VirusKiller; 2018-02-15 13:18.
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#273211 - 2018-02-15 13:34 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: VirusKiller]
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@Joel,

I tend to agree that the situation for SE may have to evolve beyond the original cope.

If MQA can be unfolded and/or upsampled to 88/96 then I would think this must be viable as a digital output in order to get into DACs that are renderers. Unless of course that is via USB only.

If so then a USB to coax conversion would be needed.

PC's can output SPDIF over coax or optical. I used to feed my G68 with such a source.

Ironically I might imagine M selling more DSP units as standalone systems if they did either fully decode or at least render on receipt of a 1st decode signal.

Not trying to draw your specific Roon view here, but, it must be entirely feasible at least technically, for Roon to send whatever MQA meta info is needed for input to an SE DSP to render (if that is not already part of the embedded signal)


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#273215 - 2018-02-15 13:58 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: ncpl]
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Registered: 2004-04-15
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Originally Posted By ncpl
If so then a USB to coax conversion would be needed.
As long as there isn't a whitelist of renderer USB IDs... I'm not saying that there is, because frankly it would be unmaintainable. That said, there *were* some issues with early versions of the TIDAL desktop app in that it didn't recognize my 818v3 as a renderer, but it did my Explorer²; which suggests that the TIDAL app was checking USB IDs for a time at least. Whether it was doing so from a "trying to be helpful" perspective or other, or whether it was something else entirely, I have no idea.


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#273220 - 2018-02-15 15:00 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: VirusKiller]
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I saw the same in early Tidal app that Tidal decode was no good when linked to my 808. Only MQA pass-through worked. Rendering the 1st unfold did not.

Are you saying that the Tidal app is fixed in this regard now ? I haven't been inclined to re-test.


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#273224 - 2018-02-15 16:33 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: ncpl]
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Originally Posted By ncpl
Are you saying that the Tidal app is fixed in this regard now ? I haven't been inclined to re-test.

Dunno and likewise!

Edit: No, it doesn't appear to have been fixed.


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Edited by VirusKiller; 2018-02-15 16:38.
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#273225 - 2018-02-15 17:04 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: VirusKiller]
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ChrisLayerUK Offline
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A little off topic but this is a new to me DSP8000SE Review.

This quote is interesting.

Originally Posted By Meridian Audio’s Matt Holland
On paper it may seem like a limitation,” he told us, “but I often use the analogy of the importance of camera lens versus the pixel count on the sensor on the final image quality. Our digital transport design allows us to achieve amazing resolution at the analogue output stage. We measure resolution in terms of noise, jitter, time smear, not just bit-depth and high frequency extension. We also do not believe there is any technical argument to support operating at bit-depths higher than 24-bit, as a correctly dithered 24-bit signal, when correctly converted to analogue, has no quantisation noise and more dynamic range than any recording microphone or studio preamp can capture. Bob [Stuart] has written and published some excellent technical papers on the subject over the years.

“Our ambition in the future is to increase the maximum sampling rate of our SpeakerLink transport. The current Meridian state-of-the-art is 24/96 for DACs. Our front-end processors, like 818v3 and UltraDAC, can handle much higher sampling rates at their inputs, so in terms of file compatibility we handle practically everything available.”


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MC200 500GB, QNAP TVS 471i3. Roon into 2 MS200's. Explorer 2. Bluesound Pulse 2 and Mini. 596 v1.89.2, 518, G61R, M60.2 Rosewood, M33C, M33 Rears, M1500 Sub, Foxsat HD, Sony Blu Ray, Pioneer 5090, 2 Chromecast's for LRB videos.
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#273227 - 2018-02-15 17:59 Re: DSP8000SE: Does it decode MQA fully? [Re: ChrisLayerUK]
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Mtns Offline
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Originally Posted By ChrisLayerUK
A little off topic but this is a new to me DSP8000SE Review.
The reviewer name is Jez Ford. This has a familiar ring to it. Perhaps a thinly disguised pen name?


James
NC1: 861v4+ID40, 218, MS200 (to outdoors), DSP8000SE (upgraded). 5500VC, 5500s, Hsu Research ULS15x2, DirecTV, Oppo BD103, QNAP251, Roon
NC2-see FL 2 with Triad Silver Speakers

FL1: G61R, 218, DSP8000SEs, 5500HC, DSP6000s, MS600, DirecTv, Oppo BD103, QNAP469, Roon
FL2: Marantz 7005, M60s, M60C, M33s, Oppo BDP-93, MS200, Roon
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