Google Search  |  Meridian Systems  |  Meridian Streaming  |  Restaurant  |  WiKi  |  Duncan's Meridian Info  |  Board Rules  |  Restaurant Rules
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#270521 - 2017-12-06 22:04 Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback.
Registered: 2006-07-31
Posts: 54
Locus Offline
Mostly harmless
Locus Offline
Mostly harmless

Registered: 2006-07-31
Posts: 54
Loc: London, UK
This topic has come up in passing a few times on the forum, but does not seem to have been addressed directly. Hopefully there are, or will be, many who are interested in MQA playback, of those few will have SE speakers. Most will use analogue equipment, and so this topic will be of interest to that majority. Meridian themselves do not seem to have offered any guidance in this area.

I thought it might be easiest to consider the simplest system: 'USB out from computer' into 'Explorer 2' into 'passive attenuator' into 'power amplifier' into 'analogue speakers'. The attenuator can be assumed to be transparent, inially, thus leaving the power amplifier and speakers, only, needing consideration. The question then is 'what electrical and physical parameters do those two items need to meet'?

From what I can gather it is the 'impulse response' of these items that needs to be adequate, but what exactly does that mean? VK mentioned that 'frequency response' and 'impulse response' are not the same, although I would suppose there is some relation between the two. My physics reaches its limit here. The other related problem is that manufacturers do not give any relevant information, at least as yet. Meridian, rather cryptically, only state the frequency response of the 8KSE as 'Frequency response in-room 20Hz – >32kHz ±3dB (for inputs at 44.1kHz or 48kHz)'. Not much help!

So, no answers from me, but perhaps others can offer illumination, or a picture can gradually be formed.

Locus.

Top
#270526 - 2017-12-06 23:52 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: Locus]
Registered: 2009-11-10
Posts: 1,100
CMB Integrations - Bruce Offline
Meridian Partner Pan-dimensional being
CMB Integrations - Bruce Offline
Meridian Partner
Pan-dimensional being

Registered: 2009-11-10
Posts: 1,100
Loc: Lexington, South Carolina, USA
When it comes to MQA, once it leaves the Explorer2 it is in the analog realm so you have MQA regadless of what happens to the signal after as long as it does not receive further digital processing.


www.cmbintegrations.com

Personal System #1 Theta Digital Cassablanca 4, 818v3, 218, DSP8000.2SE, DSP7200SEHC, Boston Acoustics Lynnfield 500L series 2, Monitor Audio Silver 10, ATI 200WX5 Amp, JVC RS15, Black Diamond Zero Edge screen. QNAP TS-251 3TB
Personal System #2 F80.

Crestron control and multi room audio via Meridian 258 amplifiers.
Top
#270528 - 2017-12-07 07:48 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: Locus]
Registered: 2016-05-04
Posts: 83
Ogri Offline
Mostly harmless
Ogri Offline
Mostly harmless

Registered: 2016-05-04
Posts: 83
Loc: London, UK
+1! Having MQA is one thing, hearing the benefits another. SE speakers have high bandwidth amps and new tweeters, presumably to allow the effects of MQA to be heard. The new amp has similar electronics I believe. So the question asked sounds like - what analogue kit do you need to hear full fat MQA? What characteristics of amp, response of drivers, what does “fast” mean. I would be hugely interested in MQA if this were explicit. As nobody cares to flesh this out, and not knowing enough, my interest in MQA is minimal, SE speakers aren’t tempting at current prices with Meridian’s passing interest in this customer base. Shame really...

Anyone from Meridian reading?

Top
#270530 - 2017-12-07 07:58 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: Ogri]
Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,122
ChrisLayerUK Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ChrisLayerUK Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,122
Loc: Colchester, Essex, UK
The way I see it, with MQA decoded, you have a Studio Quality Analog input signal. (As defined by MQA)
With this, your analog system will do what it has always done. The better the system the better the sound.

The analogy I would use would be; how would your system sound with the ‘Best Turntable’ on the input?
Although this analogy immediately breaks down as the best Turntable is compromised by its own technology inherent in producing recordings on discs. Something MQA professes to overcome.

I’ll take cover now lol


No 18 in the Hall of fame smile I have simple tastes; I am content to settle for the best: GIK monster bass panels, rear wall.
MC200 500GB, QNAP TVS 471i3. Roon into 2 MS200's. Explorer 2. Bluesound Pulse 2 and Mini. 596 v1.89.2, 518, G61R, M60.2 Rosewood, M33C, M33 Rears, M1500 Sub, Foxsat HD, Sony Blu Ray, Pioneer 5090, 2 Chromecast's for LRB videos.
Top
#270531 - 2017-12-07 08:25 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: ChrisLayerUK]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,202
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic

Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,202
Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
MQA is all about adding time domain response to existing frequency domain response requirements.

Richard Hollinshead once pointed out to me that the frequency response of a loudspeaker does not guarantee time domain response of the same order (the electronics might be more limited in bandwidth than the drive units), but it's an indication that it might be so. Conversely, equipment with a published spec. of 20kHz might have a much higher time domain response, but you simply can't tell. To my knowledge, no one apart from Meridian states the time domain response of their equipment, and Meridian has only done that in a round about way ("high bandwidth electronics").

Most manufacturers of audio equipment don't care (in their specs at least) about frequency response beyond 20kHz, but that is beginning to change.

To be "MQA ready", I would look for indications that downstream equipment has at least been designed with high frequency bandwidth in mind (minimum 25kHz, but 30kHz better). I've recently bought a small set of Focal analogue active monitors for my desk which feature their inverted Beryllium tweeter and have a similar HF frequency response spec. to SE loudspeakers - I feel that this is important - and they sound remarkably clean and clear with a very open top end.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
Top
#270532 - 2017-12-07 08:32 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,202
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic

Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,202
Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
Originally Posted By CMB Integrations - Bruce
once it leaves the Explorer2 it is in the analog realm so you have MQA regadless of what happens to the signal after as long as it does not receive further digital processing.
I have to disagree with this statement. If the downstream analogue electronics do not have adequate time domain impulse response and smear the audio, the MQA goodness is lost, period.


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
Top
#270535 - 2017-12-07 10:02 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 2,382
Cliff. Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
Cliff. Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 2,382
Loc: South Wiltshire, UK
I’m not going to pretend to understand the subtleties of MQA processing but I still don’t understand how you can get the full benefits of time smear correction without taking into account the influence of the room. Trinnov EQ makes time domain corrections for both group delay and very early reflections. Whatever they do, the sound quality (especially MC) has never been better in my room. The next generation MQA processing surely has to be integrated with state-of-the-art room correction. Until then I would choose the latter.


Main system - Sources (Kodi-HTPC, FireTV, Sat) into Trinnov Altitude32(+Roon), Amplitude8 amp & Vivid Audio (Giya G3, V1.5) speakers. Others: F80 + Raspberry Pi and other Pi systems.
Top
#270536 - 2017-12-07 10:26 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2009-11-10
Posts: 1,100
CMB Integrations - Bruce Offline
Meridian Partner Pan-dimensional being
CMB Integrations - Bruce Offline
Meridian Partner
Pan-dimensional being

Registered: 2009-11-10
Posts: 1,100
Loc: Lexington, South Carolina, USA
So all the people who have been enjoying an Explorer2 with headphones and raving about the sound quality are all suffering from some mass delusion and have not been listening to MQA at all? And to further that point, the Ultra DAC, 808v6, 818v3 or 218 when used with an analog system won't provide real MQA unless they are paired with very specific amps and speakers? Where is this approved list? As with anything audio, the better the equipment, the better the result.


www.cmbintegrations.com

Personal System #1 Theta Digital Cassablanca 4, 818v3, 218, DSP8000.2SE, DSP7200SEHC, Boston Acoustics Lynnfield 500L series 2, Monitor Audio Silver 10, ATI 200WX5 Amp, JVC RS15, Black Diamond Zero Edge screen. QNAP TS-251 3TB
Personal System #2 F80.

Crestron control and multi room audio via Meridian 258 amplifiers.
Edited by CMB Integrations - Bruce; 2017-12-07 10:42.
Top
#270547 - 2017-12-07 13:29 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
Registered: 2016-05-04
Posts: 83
Ogri Offline
Mostly harmless
Ogri Offline
Mostly harmless

Registered: 2016-05-04
Posts: 83
Loc: London, UK
Are we all understanding MQA? How can you hear benefits if the equipment used can’t reproduce them?

I can understand a studio master sounding great but that would be missing the point.

The approved list ( or in less passionate terms, required characteristics for amp and driver) is exactly what this topic is about, so yes please, what exactly is required, specifically?

Top
#270548 - 2017-12-07 13:34 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: CMB Integrations - Bruce]
Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,136
Hector Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
Hector Offline
Senior Shouting Officer

Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,136
Loc: Midlands, UK
Originally Posted By CMB Integrations - Bruce
So all the people who have been enjoying an Explorer2 with headphones and raving about the sound quality are all suffering from some mass delusion and have not been listening to MQA at all? And to further that point, the Ultra DAC, 808v6, 818v3 or 218 when used with an analog system won't provide real MQA unless they are paired with very specific amps and speakers? Where is this approved list? As with anything audio, the better the equipment, the better the result.


Hi Bruce
Does the missing approved list include "The Prime Headphone Amp" fed from analogue out of 808v6 or 818v3. Or am I also delusional?

Of course there is no MQA indication in this case on the Prime only on the 808 in my case confused

Hector


AV: Thorens TD160B, SME, ShureV15MK2, 500, 598, 861v4, DSP7200.1LR, DSP3300HC Samsung UE55, SkyHD.
DINING: MS600, AC200, DSP5200SLLR.
STUDY 504, SB Touch, 2x MD600, C15, 808.6, 5200SE, Mac & PC, Explorer v1, Prime+PS Grado GS1000i
HORIZONTAL: M80, MS200, Red Rose Spirit + Sonus Faber Toys
A capella to Zydeco
Edited by Hector; 2017-12-07 13:38. Edit Reason: Clarity
Top
#270552 - 2017-12-07 20:49 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: Hector]
Registered: 2007-07-11
Posts: 1,035
Kswanson Offline
Pan-dimensional being
Kswanson Offline
Pan-dimensional being

Registered: 2007-07-11
Posts: 1,035
Loc: San Diego area, CA, USA
This is an interesting thread to me because I've wondered the same thing. Berkeley makes terrific DACs and their latest renders MQA but does not do the first unfold. What, exactly, does a DAC do when it renders? Does it add something to the electronics or speakers?

Ken


Main: G68J, 5K2s, 5Ks, HSU subs, Pio 151FD, Dish VP722, Roku, Wadia I70, Anti Mode Dual Core, Oppo 103D Vanity Lite
Office: SBT, DSP6k's, 218, Roon.
Top
#270553 - 2017-12-07 21:17 Re: Analogue Requirements For MQA Playback. [Re: Kswanson]
Registered: 2010-08-08
Posts: 389
Jeje Offline
Hitchhiker
Jeje Offline
Hitchhiker

Registered: 2010-08-08
Posts: 389
Loc: New York City, NY, USA
Interesting tread as well, as I was wondering about the required specs of the power amplifier.

I remember JOB sys (Goldmund) having a Marketing Story about how "fast" their amplifier is.


In their Specs, they had a number for "Slew rate unloaded" > 80 V/us.


Is this what Meridian was referring to, the required upgraded specs of the SE amplification?


Jerome
Music: MC200 -> MS600 -> G68D -> DSP8.2k + DSP5200HC front / DSP33 Rears
Movies: NAS -> Oppo BDP-93 -> HD621 -> G68D -> DSP8.2k + DSP5200HC front / DSP33 Rears
Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  Carl, Duncs, MQA_List, ncpl 
Who's Online
2 registered (PWM, Jon Raines), 29 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
DirkSwizzler, Philip, JMK, wmo, Naresh
4555 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
gIzzE 47
GMT 45
CMB Integrations - Bruce 42
spinaltap 34
Tarik 27
Top Posters
VirusKiller 12202
Fiddler 8659
ncpl 8331
Carl 7537
Ian 7313
Forum Stats
4,555 Registered Members
17 Forums
24,187 Topics
248,738 Posts

Most users ever online: 211 @ 2015-05-05 14:40
Meridian  |  Media Centre  |  Support  |  Firmware Release Notes  |  RSS Systems  |  RSS Streaming  |  RSS Restaurant