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#269626 - 2017-11-09 14:13 "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,554
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,554
Loc: Austria, Europe
I found a very popular track/album from Stan Getz and Antonio Carlos Jobim and Astrud Gilbero named "The girl from Ipanema" recorded March 1963.

On vinyl and all the CDs that I have listen so far, the piano guitar and vocal is clearly on the right side on the stage.
Check here the voice of Astrud starts at about at 01:20, it's clearly on the ride side.

Now a MQA "master" is out, where the whole stage is turned. The positions of all artist are changed from L to R and opposite.
Listen first the correct version and the "Bad" ##edit# mastering

Hopefully that is not an example to make fast money - not good move from verve...

Or could that be issue with TIDAL?


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Edited by RobertW; 2017-11-09 20:57. Edit Reason: ## not MQA related
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#269635 - 2017-11-09 16:52 Re: "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,147
ChrisLayerUK Online content
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ChrisLayerUK Online content
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,147
Loc: Colchester, Essex, UK
I have listened and yes, the percussion is from the right on MQA (not decoded) However, the vocals are so much clearer than my 24 bit 88 K version.
Listening to the MQA version as I type (undecoded) the sound balance sounds lovely. This is not a Track I listen to often though so the alterations don’t jarr me at all.
It would be nice to hear from Verve on this as there must be a reason.
Listening to my original version again I feel I prefer the MQA version. The original doesn’t feel as natural somehow. It feels awkward to me. I can see why you would feel otherwise if your completely familiar with it though.
Just thoughts, Chris


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#269637 - 2017-11-09 17:52 Re: "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2010-12-09
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Ratbert Offline
Hooloovoo
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Originally Posted By RobertW
Now a MQA "master" is out, where the whole stage is turned. The positions of all artist are changed from L to R and opposite.
Maybe that’s what the artist originally intended? wink


.
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#269638 - 2017-11-09 18:09 Re: "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,352
ncpl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ncpl Offline

President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,352
Loc: Surrey, UK
I have many copies of this track too. I just put all of them on a loop and sampled each one.

MQA and CD (Verve Compact Jazz) have Astrud on the left. A different CD (AG's Finest Hour), DSD and hi-res PCM have her on the right.

The Verve CD was released 1990.

This suggests that there must be >1 master. That is likely.

Just to check what you mean by your post title... MQA is not doing any mastering here. They are processing and encoding the master provided by the label.


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#269643 - 2017-11-09 21:39 Re: "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve [Re: ncpl]
Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,147
ChrisLayerUK Online content
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ChrisLayerUK Online content
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,147
Loc: Colchester, Essex, UK
Have you tried the Track 9 version on the MQA album?


No 18 in the Hall of fame smile I have simple tastes; I am content to settle for the best: GIK monster bass panels, rear wall.
MC200 500GB, QNAP TVS 471i3. Roon into 2 MS200's. Explorer 2. Bluesound Pulse 2 and Mini. 596 v1.89.2, 518, G61R, M60.2 Rosewood, M33C, M33 Rears, M1500 Sub, Foxsat HD, Sony Blu Ray, Pioneer 5090, 2 Chromecast's for LRB videos.
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#269644 - 2017-11-09 21:42 Re: "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve [Re: ChrisLayerUK]
Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,352
ncpl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ncpl Offline

President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,352
Loc: Surrey, UK
No...just track 1.

9 and 1 are different lengths. Are they left right switched ? Too late for me to check today.

Different recordings perhaps.


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#269645 - 2017-11-09 21:43 Re: "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve [Re: ChrisLayerUK]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,230
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic

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Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
There are three Getz/Gilberto MQA versions on TIDAL in the UK...


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I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#269647 - 2017-11-09 21:48 Re: "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve [Re: ncpl]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,554
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,554
Loc: Austria, Europe
Sorry about the maybe misunderstanding post here.
My intention was to point out that with MQA processing - mainstream called mastering or master - also "fast money thinking" will be generated from the labels.

A piece of music recorded and released a long time ago on many vinyl and CDs, and then get "remastered" in such a way that L and R are swapped, point out that there is no quality control and quality work is done.
That kind of work destroy the idea of MQA to take out the real "truth" of the recording.

It’s not a technical failure of MQA , its the greed of the label to make fast money, that was my intention to point out.

As that is a "live record" with a real physical stage, and not a virtuell from a studio recording, it’s a important part of the "truth" not to swap L and R.

So in my understanding, a master can only show the truth of the recording event, of course with the limitation at that time of the recording and the precise work/knowledge of the record engineer .

I agree that that "MQA master" sounds much better even with the wrong directions.
But it’s against the philosophy from MQA, where the artists have the full control of their music and "sign" it as "true".

Verve do very bad thing here, destroys the idea and business from MQA (for me).



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#269650 - 2017-11-09 22:07 Re: "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,230
VirusKiller Offline
Don't Panic
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Don't Panic

Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,230
Loc: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
I disagree Robert; it's almost certainly an MQA from a re-mix/re-master. The recent re-mix of The Beatles / Sgt. Pepper is magnificent, but is it authentic to the original?


Roon Developer and ex-moderator of this Forum
I am #25 in the HH1 photo of fame.
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#269653 - 2017-11-10 07:33 Re: "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,554
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,554
Loc: Austria, Europe
Joel, wasnt or better isnt the "goal" the "philosophy" what Bob always telling,
to create the "original" "authentical" event ?
To make that possible,
the process to minimize the record and other technical failures from that time-
-and also today from current equipment-
is "the" or "one" big goal from MQA.
The second main item is the "authentification" from the artists, and then the MQA "authentication" as a "signature"
for the best reconstruction of that event is fullfilled.
So, in my thinking, to change the original master in a way, that this event is not more "authentical" is a big fault refer to the intention of MQA.
Are my arguments are not correct here,
sorry i didnt catch for which arguments are you and others are disagree ?
Iam with you that the verve MQA track sounds better, even i only listen to one track and then i get p.... off.

Robert


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#269657 - 2017-11-10 08:21 Re: "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,378
GMT Offline
Working on the ultimate question
GMT Offline
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Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,378
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, UK
Robert I think that what Joel is getting at is there are already multiple versions/mixes of this album and the one that has had the MQA treatment (so far) isn't based on the first album but one of the mixes. e.g. this is based on the original remix of the second album. (just swap your speakers around whenever you play it or stand on your head!!)

Cheers
Tom


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#269658 - 2017-11-10 08:26 Re: "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,352
ncpl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ncpl Offline

President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,352
Loc: Surrey, UK
Robert,

I totally agree that labels should not make mistakes when they release anything....MQA included.

However, that is not what is happening here.

Please go to the Getz/Gilberto album on Tidal that is the expanded edition. It happens to be MQA192 and sounds very good.



Track 1 is 5m20s and Astrud is LEFT

now go to

Track 9 which is 5m13s and Astrud is RIGHT.

What do you think this means ?

As these tracks are NOT the same length you would have to assume they are alternate recordings. It is therefore not difficult to imagine that they may have been MIXED differently. You might imagine that the MIXING and MASTERING teams were trying to create a different presentation. Remember in the 60's stereo was quite a new thing and it was not unusual to have different takes to popular songs. Many of these appear on Expanded Editions now.

So, when Verve issues this track on an album they obviously have to choose between (at least) 2 versions. On some releases the RIGHT channel version has been used and on others the LEFT channel version is used.

Play both the versions on that Expanded Edition and come back to tell us which one you prefer and hopefully you won't be so p.... off. Definitely 1st World problem wink


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#269678 - 2017-11-10 13:43 Re: "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve [Re: ncpl]
Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,554
RobertW Offline
Robert.W Great Green Arkleseizure
RobertW Offline
Robert.W
Great Green Arkleseizure

Registered: 2000-11-01
Posts: 2,554
Loc: Austria, Europe
Hello Nick,

Thanks for comments here and findings, I will test all that later.

It’s crazy when I search on TIDAL homepage I find:



That’s 8 albums with the same label picture and record date(s).
That 8 includes 5 masters and 3 extended version and two extended masters versions...

Isn't that crazy?


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__HB-strip, Ayon/HB/Shunyata/Dream State Audio/Miltzow -- power cables,
__Ayon/Jungson/Miltzow --analog, Miltzow-- digital,
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Reviver
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#269694 - 2017-11-10 16:28 Re: "Bad" MQA mastering from Verve [Re: RobertW]
Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,352
ncpl Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
ncpl Offline

President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,352
Loc: Surrey, UK
Track 9 of the Expanded versions is actually listed as MONO.

There is a 2m55s version of the song too on one of those albums.

Take your pick for which you think is actually correct.

Failing that... play the one you prefer.


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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