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#264212 - 2017-05-13 16:36 MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved
Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,278
GMT Offline
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Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,278
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, UK
I connected my new 218 up quickly last night, I haven't got working comms yet. As far as I can tell, whatever is selected on the input plays on all outputs of the 218.

I also switched the coax, from the back of my Squeezebox, to the coax out on the 218.

By selecting Squeezebox on the G68 I had MQA going out via SpeakerLink to L & R 5200SEs from the 218 and MQA lite going to the G68 / Sbox / Trifield.

It did not just snap in! cry

Cheers
Tom


Main: G68J, 218 HD621, 3*5200s (2 SE L&R),DSW, 2* Reviver, 3200s,SBT, PS4, Amazon TV Fire, Dune Base 3.0, Xbox, NUC (Roon server & Kodi)
Kitchen: 561M, M33s, M1500, SBT, Chromecast
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#264225 - 2017-05-14 08:29 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: GMT]
Registered: 2011-01-25
Posts: 388
bxd Offline
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Originally Posted By GMT
I also used the coax, from the back of my Squeezebox, in the coax out on the 218.

By selecting Squeezebox on the G68 I had MQA going out via SpeakerLink to L & R 5200SEs from the 218 and MQA lite going to the G68 / Sbox / Trifield.
Hi Tom,

Can you explain a bit more please. I'm not familiar with the Squeezebox, but I presume that it has a coax input and that you've connected the digital output from the 218 to the Squeezebox (or have you just bypassed the Squeezebox and connected the 218 directly to the G68).

What is the source for the MQA material?

Do the speakers show MQA?

When playing material through the squeezebox (218digital > Sbox > G68 > Trifield), I presume that the G68J is connected directly to the speaker (G68J Digital out > Speaker Digital in)?

Thanks
Brian


Main: G65, MD600, MS600, 218, 598DP, HD621, DSP5200SE, DSP5200HCSE, M6 & D1500.
System 2: G91A, MS200, DSP5000 (96/24v1), DSP3300.
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#264228 - 2017-05-14 10:59 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: bxd]
Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,278
GMT Offline
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Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,278
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, UK
Hi Brian

Firstly, this isn't true Trifield as we know it. It is in fact unproccesed left and right speaker with processed centre. I imagine that true Trifield has subtle changes to the left and right speaker.

The unabridged version:
Assumption: Comms must be disabled

Roon MQA - Network in - Feeds Left and Right Speaker MQA

Coax out on 218 to G68 Coax in (In my case what was previously configured for Squeexebox use) - Feeds centre speaker MQA lite

On 218 - Use Roon
On G68 - Select Squeezebox/Trifield

Cheers
Tom


Main: G68J, 218 HD621, 3*5200s (2 SE L&R),DSW, 2* Reviver, 3200s,SBT, PS4, Amazon TV Fire, Dune Base 3.0, Xbox, NUC (Roon server & Kodi)
Kitchen: 561M, M33s, M1500, SBT, Chromecast
Office: A330i, G41, Explorer2,Velodyne CT120
F80s, M60s
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#264230 - 2017-05-14 11:35 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: GMT]
Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,271
Ian Online content
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Registered: 2004-08-07
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Loc: Surrey, England, UK
That really sounds like Trifield Width is broken

[edit]
A reference to the long running 'trifield width is broken' bug that existed a number of years back. The bug meant that Trifield width setting was non functional.

The tenuous link is that this is not the Trifield DSP mode (looks to be raw MQA/stereo from 218 plus a daisychained processed centre from processor) and thus there will be no width setting as it is 'stereo'.

Quote:
I had MQA going out via SpeakerLink to L & R 5200SEs from the 218 and MQA lite going to the G68 / Sbox / Trifield.


The Trifield width setting is important as many people use this to 'snap' the Trifield sound stage into place. Thus, Trifield width is non existent (aka broken) in this configuration.

Apologies for the cryptic comment.
[\edit]


Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
Edited by Ian; 2017-05-15 09:11. Edit Reason: Explanation and links to Trifield Width Broken threads
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#264232 - 2017-05-14 12:14 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: GMT]
Registered: 2011-01-25
Posts: 388
bxd Offline
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Registered: 2011-01-25
Posts: 388
Loc: Southampton, UK
Hi,

I can't see why you can't do proper Trifield.
If you have the G68 speaker outputs wired to the coax digital inputs on the DSP speakers (L+R and C+Sub) then you can use the digital input from the 218 as a regular (digital) stereo (pcm) source and simply apply any of the regular processing associated with the processor. ...or am I missing something?

I don't know how comms would work with the 218 connected. If you already have comms going to the speakers from the G68, won't it be carried on the SpeakerLink connection to the 218.

Edit: Just noticed your other post about comms.

Not sure what Ian meant by his comment.

Brian


Main: G65, MD600, MS600, 218, 598DP, HD621, DSP5200SE, DSP5200HCSE, M6 & D1500.
System 2: G91A, MS200, DSP5000 (96/24v1), DSP3300.
Edited by bxd; 2017-05-14 12:49. Edit Reason: update
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#264234 - 2017-05-14 14:27 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: bxd]
Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,278
GMT Offline
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Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,278
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, UK
I can do proper Trifield with 218 and MQA lite (or at least I should be able to).

The funny thing that I was reporting that I had full fat MQA from the L & R speakers + MQA lite via the centre.

Proper Trifield does not support MQA.

Cheers
Tom


Main: G68J, 218 HD621, 3*5200s (2 SE L&R),DSW, 2* Reviver, 3200s,SBT, PS4, Amazon TV Fire, Dune Base 3.0, Xbox, NUC (Roon server & Kodi)
Kitchen: 561M, M33s, M1500, SBT, Chromecast
Office: A330i, G41, Explorer2,Velodyne CT120
F80s, M60s
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#264246 - 2017-05-14 17:33 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: GMT]
Registered: 2011-01-25
Posts: 388
bxd Offline
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Registered: 2011-01-25
Posts: 388
Loc: Southampton, UK
Hi Tom,

I think we need to be a little bit careful about using terms like MQA 'lite'. As far as I'm aware, the input to the G68 is simply treated as a regular PCM signal and any MQA 'content' is lost.

I agree, that Trifield doesn't "support" 'full fat'* MQA (so it should only be L+R stereo) but I'm still a little confused by what you're reporting. Are you suggesting that while the L and R speakers are showing MQA, the centre speaker is active. If that's what you have, then I'd suggest that something isn't quite right somewhere. If you have the speakers (digital inputs i.e. not SpeakerLink) connected to the G68, then you should just have regular Trifield from the processor.

*I understand people using the term "full fat" MQA to refer to a situation where the speaker indicates that it is receving a MQA signal, but I think it's going a bit too far to refer to MQA lite. If anything, I'd think of it as MQA skimmed, where the original signal had MQA content but it's been removed by the processor to leave basic PCM. Obviously, some people prefer 'skimmed' milk and it may well be that some people may like 'skimmed' MQA when compared to regular PCM.

I don't want to go any further with the "dairy" analogy, so I think I'll shut up.

Brian


Main: G65, MD600, MS600, 218, 598DP, HD621, DSP5200SE, DSP5200HCSE, M6 & D1500.
System 2: G91A, MS200, DSP5000 (96/24v1), DSP3300.
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#264247 - 2017-05-14 17:44 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: bxd]
Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,278
GMT Offline
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Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,278
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, UK
Brian

I think you've pretty much milked the analogy dry!

You are correct that something is not right. The 218 is driving the L & R channels via SpeakerLink and the G68 should be set to the same source. Because the comms is not working I can play any of the other sources through the G68 at the moment. That could be a combination of Roon and the TV, Roon and DVD, Roon and Squeezebox.

Cheers
Tom


Main: G68J, 218 HD621, 3*5200s (2 SE L&R),DSW, 2* Reviver, 3200s,SBT, PS4, Amazon TV Fire, Dune Base 3.0, Xbox, NUC (Roon server & Kodi)
Kitchen: 561M, M33s, M1500, SBT, Chromecast
Office: A330i, G41, Explorer2,Velodyne CT120
F80s, M60s
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#264254 - 2017-05-14 21:20 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: Ian]
Registered: 2006-11-08
Posts: 3,937
dpstjp Offline
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Originally Posted By Ian
That really sounds like Trifield Width is broken
Never heard that before.


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#264257 - 2017-05-15 07:21 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: dpstjp]
Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,271
Ian Online content
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Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,271
Loc: Surrey, England, UK
I have clarified my existing post.


Meridian owner since 1992
DSP5000 96/24, MC200, Prime & PSU, Focal Elear, Explorer 1 & 2, F80, 200/203 and various Sonos.
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#264258 - 2017-05-15 07:21 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: bxd]
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 5,324
Ludwig Offline
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Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By bxd
I think we need to be a little bit careful about using terms like MQA 'lite'. As far as I'm aware, the input to the G68 is simply treated as a regular PCM signal and any MQA 'content' is lost.

That's not really accurate.

Playing MQA through MS200-G68, you get 44k signal into the G68: any MQA "content" is lost.
Playing MQA through 218-G68, you get 96k signal into the G68: some benefit from MQA content is retained. = MQA Skimmed. ("skimmed" not "lite"...)

Yes the 96k PCM signal is no longer encoded as MQA, but it contains a whole 2x of extra information from the MQA layer, which is not to be sniffed at.

(And no, Trifield width was never broken.)


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#264259 - 2017-05-15 07:48 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: Ludwig]
Registered: 2002-02-14
Posts: 8,295
ncpl Online sleepy
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Loc: Surrey, UK
Originally Posted By Ludwig


Yes the 96k PCM signal is no longer encoded as MQA


Not sure this is right. The 96k first unfold from the 218 into a G68 would still be encoded with MQA (if there is any).

Otherwise how would a DSP SE do the final render if that was connected to the 218 instead ?

The G68 doesn't do any final MQA render is probably a more accurate statement.


Rgds,
Nick

#15SE
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#264273 - 2017-05-15 15:34 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: ncpl]
Registered: 2004-12-09
Posts: 6,069
ChrisLayerUK Offline
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What I'd like to know is How Good is an MQA signal fed through a processor and Trifield?

I would consider it is a superior digital source relative to CD and this should, as such, be demonstratably superior.
How much damage does Trifield processing really do here?

Curious, Chris


No 18 in the Hall of fame smile I have simple tastes; I am content to settle for the best: GIK monster bass panels, rear wall.
MC200 500GB, QNAP TVS 471i3. Roon into 2 MS200's. Explorer 2. Bluesound Pulse 2 and Mini. 596 v1.89.2, 518, G61R, M60.2 Rosewood, M33C, M33 Rears, M1500 Sub, Foxsat HD, Sony Blu Ray, Pioneer 5090, 2 Chromecast's for LRB videos.
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#264276 - 2017-05-15 16:20 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: ChrisLayerUK]
Registered: 2004-04-15
Posts: 12,164
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Trifield processing won't damage anything (assuming we are restricting ourselves to a 96/24 decoded MQA signal).

However I shudder at the thought of full MQA outside of the processor and a Trifield central channel (if that's what's been done). For starters, how on earth would you get the centre channel delay correct?


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#264289 - 2017-05-15 22:48 Re: MQA Pseudo Trifield Achieved [Re: VirusKiller]
Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,278
GMT Offline
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Registered: 2004-10-20
Posts: 1,278
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, UK
Shudder you should !! I didn't set out trying to create this.. It was only because my comms failed!


Main: G68J, 218 HD621, 3*5200s (2 SE L&R),DSW, 2* Reviver, 3200s,SBT, PS4, Amazon TV Fire, Dune Base 3.0, Xbox, NUC (Roon server & Kodi)
Kitchen: 561M, M33s, M1500, SBT, Chromecast
Office: A330i, G41, Explorer2,Velodyne CT120
F80s, M60s
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