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#238161 - 2015-07-27 19:03 Re: Ethernet cables [Re: Asa Post]
Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,271
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,271
Loc: Surrey, England, UK
Originally Posted By Asa Post
Originally Posted By Ian
Following on from Ronnies post linking the the cable teardown, Im looking forward to the results from this. Maybe for the first time I will read something scientifically verifiable to prove that AQ/data could be affected by (other than poorly designed, badly constructed, out of specification, maliciously treated, poorly deployed or simply faulty) network data cables, something that the last 30+ years experience in computer networking have failed to reveal. Or maybe not...

I've heard some huge differences in AQ and the only thing that has changed between the listening experiences was time of day, posture or wellbeing, oh, and the odd glass of alcohol.
I note your scepticism. But please note that my post concerned cables used as SpeakerLink. And I did not find any benefits from using Audioquest Vodka. And, unlike you, I certainly did not resort to vodka or any other alcohol. So, why not borrow some cables and decide for yourself rather than merely read other people's findings?
My post was not directed at you - there are many posts here otherwise. Note my references to network data cables and computer networking. Not a single reference to SpeakerLink in my post, which I have always said can sound different as there are scientific reasons why they can. as for only reading other peoples findings, I have had enough listening experiences to know what sounds different and what does not without needing someone to tell me that it sounds better because of its price or special construction. My ears may not be the best in the world, but I can sure tell the difference between listening to music at 5am and 5pm. Whilst that revelation didn't cost a penny, the realisation was priceless.


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#238171 - 2015-07-28 07:37 Re: Ethernet cables [Re: Ian]
Registered: 2008-02-29
Posts: 1,809
Asa Post Offline
Knows where his towel is
Asa Post Offline
Knows where his towel is

Registered: 2008-02-29
Posts: 1,809
Loc: Devon, UK
Thanks for the clarification and happy listening at whatever hour!

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#238173 - 2015-07-28 08:08 Re: RJ45 Cables (Ethernet and SpeakerLink Use Cases) [Re: HermanAtHome]
Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 333
EllisDJ Offline
Hitchhiker
EllisDJ Offline
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Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 333
Loc: Romford, UK
Not read through all the pages but I am involved in a discussion elsewhere. I thought I would share a few things from that

1. Ethernet Cable Testing - AQ Vodka

2.AQ Vodka Stripped Down

Its not very dissimilar from a standard Cat 7 cable.

The results are being collated atm


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#238176 - 2015-07-28 08:39 Re: RJ45 Cables (Ethernet and SpeakerLink Use Cases) [Re: EllisDJ]
Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 1,660
3dit0r Offline
Working on the ultimate question
3dit0r Offline
Working on the ultimate question

Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 1,660
Loc: South UK
Although, as I said, I personally can't hear any difference between Ethernet cables carrying data (as opposed to SL) I question whether this kind of A/B/X blind listening test is really as 'scientific' as it appears. I have pointed out on this forum before that no less an authority than Bob Stuart himself believes they are flawed for various reasons. Given how well versed he is in audio engineering and psycho-acoustics, his is not an opinion I would dismiss lightly.

Also, it occurs that IF the differences people may be hearing in this context are real, it might well be due to interference/noise suppression differentials between the cables, which would potentially be highly system/environment dependent. E.g., we know that Meridian increased noise rejection (forgive me, I can't recall of which type right now - EM?) in ID40 to ID41, with the little ferrules in the cables (important point) of the Anniversary system in between those two design iterations. From this I surmise that a) they found that better shielding or noise suppression of some kind, in the cables before ID41, was of benefit, or why bother (unless Meridian do things randomly in R&D which I don't believe), b) would the addition of correctly designed ferrules make as much as/more of a difference in this application than an apparently minor tweak in cable design, or use of exotic materials with associated price tag, c) better equipment design to suppress/reject noise at the source/receiver might mitigate this, including cleaner PSUs on switches, etc.,, d) the environment in which the system is played might have more or less interference present (RFI, etc.). It would be interesting to know if the test attempts to take into account points c and d, as well as the psycho-acoustic problems Bob Stuart raises. If it does not, I would question whether the test is itself good, or pseudo, science.


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#238196 - 2015-07-29 08:10 Re: RJ45 Cables (Ethernet and SpeakerLink Use Cases) [Re: Asa Post]
Registered: 2008-02-29
Posts: 1,809
Asa Post Offline
Knows where his towel is
Asa Post Offline
Knows where his towel is

Registered: 2008-02-29
Posts: 1,809
Loc: Devon, UK
Originally Posted By Asa Post
Originally Posted By Ronnie
Hi Asa
My post above wasn't written so much towards yourself as it was to others reading this thread, who may not understand the distinction between Speakerlink and 'true' Ethernet use

I can understand the manufacturers labelling these cables as "Ethernet", as that is mainly what they will be used as......does anyone know of any other Manufacturer who uses Ethernet cables to carry a Balanced AED signal??........even as an interconnect between rack components??........or even if there are other Speakers out there that accept Ethernet / Speakerlink connections??

I wonder about Meridian's Speakerlink connections being "different".......they market their two cables as Cat 5 and Cat 7.......so changing the Connections would compromise this claim??

So am I correct in saying that if I ask Chord for an Anthem cable.......and tell them that it's for a Speakerlink application......that they will give me a different one, compared to if I asked for an Anthem cable for Ethernet duty??

If so, do you have any idea how the connections differ??


Hi Ronnie

I was writing my further clarification as you were posting your further thoughts. As you can see you have anticipated some of the points I make.

As for other companies, I do not know how Linn and Dynaudio connect up their "digital" speakers.


Just on a very superficial and quick search, Dynaudio use only RCA connections.

Linn on the other hand use RJ45 and seem to specify SSTP. Otherwise they claim that no digital cables, power cords or switches make any difference to sound quality. This is being debated over on the Linn forum but little attention has been paid to exotic cables.

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#238201 - 2015-07-29 11:51 Re: RJ45 Cables (Ethernet and SpeakerLink Use Cases) [Re: Asa Post]
Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,262
Crion Offline
Senior Shouting Officer
Crion Offline
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Registered: 2004-01-12
Posts: 2,262
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Thanks "Asa Post" for the sharing of your experience with the Chord Anthem, AQ Vodka and SpeakerLink. It's honest experiences at home that is the most interesting.

I don't expect any epiphanies coming from another Randi round and he certainly won't test RJ45 cables in a SpeakerLink or MMHR context. wink



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#238202 - 2015-07-29 12:38 Re: RJ45 Cables (Ethernet and SpeakerLink Use Cases) [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 1,660
3dit0r Offline
Working on the ultimate question
3dit0r Offline
Working on the ultimate question

Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 1,660
Loc: South UK
+1


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#238203 - 2015-07-29 13:00 Re: RJ45 Cables (Ethernet and SpeakerLink Use Cases) [Re: 3dit0r]
Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,098
Hector Offline
Knows where his towel is
Hector Offline
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Registered: 2011-02-02
Posts: 2,098
Loc: Midlands, UK
Meridian Oxford posted previously on this subject and IIRC they were to enter the lion's den and arrange a demo / comparison of Chord Ethernet cable products.

Did this happen or were second thoughts predominant.

As far as I can ascertain the thread appeared and then came to nought.

Could be wrong though! confused

Hector


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#238212 - 2015-07-29 16:40 Re: RJ45 Cables (Ethernet and SpeakerLink Use Cases) [Re: 3dit0r]
Registered: 2009-03-05
Posts: 392
Akimo Offline
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Akimo Offline
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Posts: 392
Loc: San Jose, California, USA
Originally Posted By 3dit0r
Although, as I said, I personally can't hear any difference between Ethernet cables carrying data (as opposed to SL) I question whether this kind of A/B/X blind listening test is really as 'scientific' as it appears. I have pointed out on this forum before that no less an authority than Bob Stuart himself believes they are flawed for various reasons. Given how well versed he is in audio engineering and psycho-acoustics, his is not an opinion I would dismiss lightly.


In addition to Bob Stuart, Nelson Pass also believes that A/B testing for audio is fundamentally flawed and ignores key general cognitive and psychoacoustic learnings.

For my own purposes, I find that I get auditory fatigue so quickly that trying to use that approach gets me nowhere.


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#238225 - 2015-07-30 07:17 Re: RJ45 Cables (Ethernet and SpeakerLink Use Cases) [Re: Crion]
Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,271
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government
Ian Offline
President of the Imperial Galactic Government

Registered: 2004-08-07
Posts: 7,271
Loc: Surrey, England, UK
Originally Posted By Crion
I don't expect any epiphanies coming from another Randi round and he certainly won't test RJ45 cables in a SpeakerLink or MMHR context. wink


All it will take is just ONE scientifically verifiably study from a reputable source showing that properly specced, designed, built and installed in a well designed audio setup network DATA cable when used as a NETWORK DATA cable carrying audio NETWORK DATA in has an impact on audio quality then I will listen. I'm not saying that you cannot change how a network data cable performs as I have abused cables in the past and caused all kinds of havoc (like running a chair over a piece of thinwire ethernet and stalling the whole network), but these do not count as they do not meet the criteria above of spec, design, build and installation, hence in this example, its a minor installation change to fix rather than an upgrade to an expensive cable.

Just ONE PIECE. Not too much to ask?

Until then, I won't listen as I know from personal experience how fallible my own hearing is even when listening to exactly the same source/environment.

As for audio data, say via MHR or PCM, I accept that and have heard it myself although never heard a difference since using kit after my 568 so sold all my high quality cables that I was using for digital audio and replaced it with well built off shelf cables. But even though I have never heard a difference, i have been given a scientific explanation why some cables might sound different and happy to accept that there can be differences between some cables but also believe that a its the design and build quality that differentiates these cables and this does not need to cost the earth nor rely on marketing mumbo jumbo to justify.


Meridian owner since 1992
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#238227 - 2015-07-30 08:12 Re: RJ45 Cables (Ethernet and SpeakerLink Use Cases) [Re: Ian]
Registered: 2010-08-24
Posts: 587
Rolski Offline
Paranoid android
Rolski Offline
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Registered: 2010-08-24
Posts: 587
Loc: Cologne, DE & Cheltenham, UK.
Ian,
Hear-hear, oh, er, I mean +1 ! wink

Always interesting - whether it's data or an audio signal - nobody ever pops an oscilloscope on either end of these cables, or a network (packet) analyser & shares the results.
This would demonstrate / be the definitive proof that the cables change or have an influence on the signals.

And would end the discussion for once and for all.


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#238229 - 2015-07-30 08:55 Re: RJ45 Cables (Ethernet and SpeakerLink Use Cases) [Re: Akimo]
Registered: 2008-02-29
Posts: 1,809
Asa Post Offline
Knows where his towel is
Asa Post Offline
Knows where his towel is

Registered: 2008-02-29
Posts: 1,809
Loc: Devon, UK
Originally Posted By Akimo
Originally Posted By 3dit0r
Although, as I said, I personally can't hear any difference between Ethernet cables carrying data (as opposed to SL) I question whether this kind of A/B/X blind listening test is really as 'scientific' as it appears. I have pointed out on this forum before that no less an authority than Bob Stuart himself believes they are flawed for various reasons. Given how well versed he is in audio engineering and psycho-acoustics, his is not an opinion I would dismiss lightly.
In addition to Bob Stuart, Nelson Pass also believes that A/B testing for audio is fundamentally flawed and ignores key general cognitive and psychoacoustic learnings.

For my own purposes, I find that I get auditory fatigue so quickly that trying to use that approach gets me nowhere.
For my comparison of cables I adopted the following procedures:

1. play some music. This allows the system to warm up and everyone to get used to the sound.

2. play only short extracts of music between switching cables so as to concentrate on certain key elements.

3. play longer pieces, usually whole tracks, so as to be able to relax into the music.

4. switch backwards and forwards between cables.

Please note that I am not expecting anyone to buy cables on the strength of what I have written. Nor am I making particular claims for my methods. I did what was practical and what I wanted to do. I made two suggestions:

1. if your system allows, try home run rather than daisy chain if you are not already doing so.

2. borrow some demonstration Audioquest and Chord cables and decide for yourself in your own system whether you prefer them to cat7 or cat6 SSTP spec.

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